Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Asilomar 07-25-07, 02:44 AM	1.) If a player rolls a crappy initiative, can he delay until the beginning of the next turn and thus act first in a round? 2.) How about readying an action until X player starts to act when X (or monster) has the top initiative, thus resetting them to the top of the ladder? For example, the Wizard gets a 20 initiative and the Rogue rolls a 1 and gets a 5 initiative (the lowest of the party) ... can the rogue then state he is waiting to see if the wizard is casting before they make their move, thus getting an effective 21 initiative? 3.) Can an action that has been readied be held through to the next turn? That is, say my ranger has stated "I nock an arrow and ready myself to shoot the first spellcaster I see." and no spells are cast after that statement and the new round begins, can they then shoot the cleric that casts a heal spell? 4.) Say a person with a high initiative readies an action, yet that action is not provoked, can they change their mind at the end of the turn and do something different, putting them at the end of the initiative ladder? Thank you!
Androcus Divinicus 07-25-07, 03:17 AM	1.) If a player rolls a crappy initiative, can he delay until the beginning of the next turn and thus act first in a round? Yes. 2.) How about readying an action until X player starts to act when X (or monster) has the top initiative, thus resetting them to the top of the ladder? For example, the Wizard gets a 20 initiative and the Rogue rolls a 1 and gets a 5 initiative (the lowest of the party) ... can the rogue then state he is waiting to see if the wizard is casting before they make their move, thus getting an effective 21 initiative? You can ready an action for when X occurs ... whether that be a player acting, or an enemy running into the room. 3.) Can an action that has been readied be held through to the next turn? That is, say my ranger has stated "I nock an arrow and ready myself to shoot the first spellcaster I see." and no spells are cast after that statement and the new round begins, can they then shoot the cleric that casts a heal spell? Yes. Though I usually check with the player of the character readying at the end of the round to make sure he hasn't decided to stop readying and go do something else. 4.) Say a person with a high initiative readies an action, yet that action is not provoked, can they change their mind at the end of the turn and do something different, putting them at the end of the initiative ladder? Yes. Hope this helps. Regards, Justin.
Kouk 07-25-07, 03:41 AM	Most of this is explained in the PHB under "Special Initiative Actions" in the Combat chapter. Delaying so you are at the top of the initiative order isn't usually any kind of benefit. You are not going "first in the round", you are just putting off your own normal turn. Psychologically it may seem like "yay, I'm first" but you still just pushed back your original turn. Initiative goes in a circle, there is no "first" after the beginning round of a combat.
Asilomar 07-25-07, 12:42 PM	I am not sure I agree with the circular thinking on initiative. Don't spells start at the nex beginning and are cast at the individual's initiative and thus, if you have a high initiative you are less likely to lose your spell, or am I misreading something?
Ced666 07-25-07, 01:23 PM	Don't spells start at the nex beginning and are cast at the individual's initiative and thus, if you have a high initiative you are less likely to lose your spell, or am I misreading something? I think you misread something. The spell takes effect as soon as the casting finishes (so, in the turn of the character who casted the spell). For spells that last several rounds (or even one round), they end at the initiative of the player who casted the spell. So you really have to look at initiative as a circular thing. And by the way, I don't understand what you mean by 'losing' your spell. You don't lose your spell, except if you need to concentrate and fail the concentration check (casting in melee or in difficult situations, ...) or if you are an arcane spellcaster and you wear an armor. Could you elaborate on that point ?
Asilomar 07-25-07, 01:35 PM	Absolutely. Casting starts at the beginning of the round and continues until the casters initiative comes up. Anyone with a better initiative then the caster has an opportunity to attempt to disrupt the spell. Anyone after the caster is too late to attempt to disrupt the spell. Which is why you want your caster to have a better initiative. Thus the rounds are not really circular. Better worded?
Eater_Of_Souls 07-25-07, 02:11 PM	1.) If a player rolls a crappy initiative, can he delay until the beginning of the next turn and thus act first in a round? Yes you can delay action but then everyone else has a turn before you do (meaning nothing changes you just skipped you turn to be the last in your turn). 2.) How about readying an action until X player starts to act when X (or monster) has the top initiative, thus resetting them to the top of the ladder? For example, the Wizard gets a 20 initiative and the Rogue rolls a 1 and gets a 5 initiative (the lowest of the party) ... can the rogue then state he is waiting to see if the wizard is casting before they make their move, thus getting an effective 21 initiative? No rogue still has 5 as an initiative so wizard is allways before rogue, wizard could delay a move after the rogue. Ofc. rogue can skip hes turn to wait for the wizard but if rogue is last in initiative and wizard is the first, next turn is allways (round 2) wizard -> others -> rogue -> (round 3) wizard -> others -> rogue -> (round 4) wizard ... So skipping a turn to wait for the first in initiative order serves nothing if one skipping the turn is also the last in initiative. 3.) Can an action that has been readied be held through to the next turn? That is, say my ranger has stated "I nock an arrow and ready myself to shoot the first spellcaster I see." and no spells are cast after that statement and the new round begins, can they then shoot the cleric that casts a heal spell? Yes you can delay as described but you lose your initiative for that round. 4.) Say a person with a high initiative readies an action, yet that action is not provoked, can they change their mind at the end of the turn and do something different, putting them at the end of the initiative ladder? Yes
Karui_Kage 07-25-07, 02:44 PM	Absolutely. Casting starts at the beginning of the round and continues until the casters initiative comes up. Anyone with a better initiative then the caster has an opportunity to attempt to disrupt the spell. Anyone after the caster is too late to attempt to disrupt the spell. Which is why you want your caster to have a better initiative. Thus the rounds are not really circular. Better worded? This isn't really correct. The spell begins casting as soon as the caster starts to cast it, and ends, well, when his turn comes up again. Take the following initiative, where C is Caster, and the rest are various PCs and NPCs: Round 1: A B C - Begins casting D E Round 2: A B C - Ends casting D E Thus, both D and E have a chance in the first round to disrupt it, and A and B have a chance in the second round. Everyone gets one chance. Remember, this only applies to spells that take 1 round to cast. Spells that take a Full Round Action or 1 standard action cannot be interrupted in this manner. Those spells *can* still be interrupted if a player readies an action to attack as soon as the mage begins casting, or if another mage readies an action to counterspell.
Ced666 07-25-07, 03:11 PM	This situation only occurs when you cast a spell with a casting time longer than 1 round (or spells for which you need to concentrate). And there are not a lot of them (AFAIK).
Salla 07-25-07, 03:16 PM	Absolutely. Casting starts at the beginning of the round and continues until the casters initiative comes up. Anyone with a better initiative then the caster has an opportunity to attempt to disrupt the spell. Anyone after the caster is too late to attempt to disrupt the spell. Which is why you want your caster to have a better initiative. Thus the rounds are not really circular. Better worded? Better worded, but incorrect. :) If the spell's casting time is one standard action, you just do it on your turn, as your standard action. Unless you provoke an AoO for the casting, or someone is readying to disrupt you, the spell simply goes off, then and there. If the spell has a 1 round casting time, then you start casting as a standard action on your turn, then the foes have one full round ... until your next action ... to attack and possibly disrupt you.
weasel0 07-25-07, 04:35 PM	Older versions of D&D worked as such: Every goes at the same time, spell casters declare spells at the time of initiative and then begin casting. The casting time determined when their initiative came up. Games such as Hackmaster still adhere to this. 3.X D&D-all actions take place on your initiative instead of the actions determining your initiative. So a spell's(normally 1 standard action) casting starts on the casters initiative, uses his standard action, the effect takes place, and then has a move action left.
tricky_bob 07-25-07, 04:46 PM	Most of this is explained in the PHB under "Special Initiative Actions" in the Combat chapter. Delaying so you are at the top of the initiative order isn't usually any kind of benefit. You are not going "first in the round", you are just putting off your own normal turn. Psychologically it may seem like "yay, I'm first" but you still just pushed back your original turn. Initiative goes in a circle, there is no "first" after the beginning round of a combat. As covered in another thread... (Suprise! I'm delaying) I don't allow player's to delay until the next round. Delaying is lowering your initiative in the current round, therefore if you delay until the end of the round, your initiative score is 0. Delaying like this allows a player to see what others do and act accordingly within the same round and is IMO in keeping with the intended use of the Delay action. Reasons.... If a high level invisible rogue attacks (and therefore starts combat) an opponent, he can make either a move action OR an attack action during the surprise round. If he says " I'm delaying my action until the start of the next round" he can make a full attack (with sneak attack) with all his attacks as the opponent has not yet acted (flat-footed). IMO, This is an abuse of the rules as intended and I don't allow it. IMO, the attacker gets his surprise round attack (with sneak), and then must roll to see whether his initiative is higher than his opponent in the first normal round of combat to see whether he gets extra sneak-fueled attacks against his opponent. You are, of course, entitled to rule differently but loop-holes like this are exactly that..holes and don't IMO add anything to the game. Have you guessed I'm not a munchkin :D
weasel0 07-25-07, 05:10 PM	But here's the thing, if you don't act before your init comes up again after delaying, you lose that entire set of actions. If your rogue starts the battle and says i'm delaying... then he never attacked and has yet to start the initiative. You're looking at the initiative as a list that is built at rolling of initiative and then stops and then starts at the top again. Again, 3.X D&D is circular in it's initiative system. Like FFX for PS2. There's no top of the order, simply who acts first and then the characters keep acting based on how fast they are until one side has defeated the other. Or like a runner's race track, yes there is a starting point, but once everyone is onto the track it's a big circle till the race is over, they don't stop, get back into the starting blocks and charge back onto the track.
tricky_bob 07-25-07, 05:36 PM	But here's the thing, if you don't act before your init comes up again after delaying, you lose that entire set of actions. If your rogue starts the battle and says i'm delaying... then he never attacked and has yet to start the initiative. You're looking at the initiative as a list that is built at rolling of initiative and then stops and then starts at the top again. Again, 3.X D&D is circular in it's initiative system. Like FFX for PS2. There's no top of the order, simply who acts first and then the characters keep acting based on how fast they are until one side has defeated the other. Or like a runner's race track, yes there is a starting point, but once everyone is onto the track it's a big circle till the race is over, they don't stop, get back into the starting blocks and charge back onto the track. I see what you're saying but the rules support this loop-hole where delaying gives a full attack action in place of the move or standard action you're suppose to get in the surprise round. So in your example the Rogue gives up the standard action he could take in the surprise round, and replaces it with a guaranteed Full attack at the beginning of the next round, which is just cheese. (check out the other thread for clarification if you've got a spare 10 hours! :) )
Some_call_me_Tim 07-25-07, 05:57 PM	As covered in another thread... (Suprise! I'm delaying)Please, pretty please with artificial sweetener on it, don't bring that dead horse in here to beat on it. :banghead:
weasel0 07-25-07, 06:01 PM	Please, pretty please with artificial sweetener on it, don't bring that dead horse in here to beat on it. QFT
Karui_Kage 07-25-07, 06:04 PM	I don't allow player's to delay I agree with the others. Please keep RAI and other such house rules to other threads. That thread was painful to read too.
tricky_bob 07-25-07, 07:40 PM	I agree with the others. Please keep RAI and other such house rules to other threads. That thread was painful to read too. Sorry to disappoint but I was responding to the OP's first question in a way that is in keeping with the rules as I think they were intended, and not as a house rule. If you feel differently then say so rather than bleat on about how you don't like what I'm saying or where it may lead. Am I to take it that you think it's ok to Delay and then go first in the next round? Anything to support that view?, or do you not have any of your own other than criticism? Forgive me for thinking that the OP wanted some feedback and rules clarification (something that is open to, albeit lengthy, debate in that other thread).
Karui_Kage 07-25-07, 07:50 PM	Sorry if I offended, that was not my intention. My point was, with the OP, it seemed clear he was asking on how the rules handled it, and the answers are pretty simple to each of his questions. If you wanted to give him advice on delaying and such, that's fine. I would recommend just linking to the thread though, instead of re-creating the discussion on it in here. The OP's questions were asking for rules-clarification, yes, which RAW would do, and not RAI. I didn't see anything asking for what others did to house rule it, though. And yes, if a player wants to delay and be first the next round, I don't see the problem in it. I won't argue it here, because this isn't the place for it. If a player wants to lose a round's worth of actions just so he can be first in the next one, that's OK with me. There's no real benefit he gains, other than appearing at the top of an abstract initiative order that is circular in concept. It's like volunteering to lose a turn just so you can go before someone else. -shrug-
Marcus Majarra 07-25-07, 11:43 PM	Am I to take it that you think it's ok to Delay and then go first in the next round? Anything to support that view?, or do you not have any of your own other than criticism? PHB160 says you can very well delay into another round. Doing so, however, only allows you to take the delayed action and denies you the actions you would regularly be entitled to in the new round (assuming you choose to delay to a point before your next turn).
Kouk 07-26-07, 07:44 AM	I am not sure I agree with the circular thinking on initiative. Don't spells start at the nex beginning and are cast at the individual's initiative and thus, if you have a high initiative you are less likely to lose your spell, or am I misreading something? For full round casting time, you begin casting on your initiative, and end casting the next time your initiative comes up. If a Wizard has rolled an Initiative of 5, he must wait until that initiative result's turn comes. Then he wants to start casting a full round spell, so he declares his action. Then initiative 4 goes, then 3, 2, 1, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15 ... etc. until it is back to the Wizard's Initiative result of 5, at which point the spell is finally done casting. From Actions in Combat (Combat chapter): Cast a Spell A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from one round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell. You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least one full round. While casting a spell, you don’t threaten any squares around you. This action is otherwise identical to the cast a spell action described under Standard Actions.
tricky_bob 07-26-07, 12:15 PM	And yes, if a player wants to delay and be first the next round, I don't see the problem in it. If a player wants to lose a round's worth of actions just so he can be first in the next one, that's OK with me. Actions? If this occurs in the middle of combat I'm in total agreement with you , however if its in the surprise round you are only giving up a single action and gaining a Full Round action. There's no real benefit he gains, other than appearing at the top of an abstract initiative order that is circular in concept. It's like volunteering to lose a turn just so you can go before someone else. -shrug- Again if this happens in the middle of combat, you are correct, but not so if its the surprise round.. he gets to change a Standard (or Move) action (the delayed action) into a Full Round action which is an advantage.
tricky_bob 07-26-07, 12:21 PM	PHB160 says you can very well delay into another round. Doing so, however, only allows you to take the delayed action and denies you the actions you would regularly be entitled to in the new round (assuming you choose to delay to a point before your next turn). Yes but it also says.. "snip// When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. //snip" I'm ok with this either way as long as you don't try doing it in a surprise round! :D
Marcus Majarra 07-26-07, 12:26 PM	Try reading just a bit father down, under initiative consequences of delaying. It specifically indicates that your initiative may rise if you delay into the next round.
Coldkilla 07-26-07, 12:57 PM	Again if this happens in the middle of combat, you are correct, but not so if its the surprise round.. he gets to change a Standard (or Move) action (the delayed action) into a Full Round action which is an advantage. It seems you are placing too much emphasis on a situation that will not come up that often in most games. You assume the rogue will get to act in the surprise round, that his target will not, that the rogue was able to get right next to his target undetected before combat started, that his target will be subject to sneak attack damage, that the target will be important enough to the rogue to warrant getting his brains bashed in on all the followup attacks if his target isn't alone. A perfect storm of circumstances. Besides, the most elegant solution and one that should have been FAQ'ed into the rules is that whatever round's worth of actions you delay, that's as many actions as you get to take on the delay. So you delay a standard or move action during the surprise round; fine, you get to take only that standard or move action in round 1 if you decide to jump in before your actual initiative count. And then you've lost the equivalent of a full round action or 2 standard/move actions for the entirety of the encounter.
Karui_Kage 07-26-07, 01:01 PM	Actions? If this occurs in the middle of combat I'm in total agreement with you , however if its in the surprise round you are only giving up a single action and gaining a Full Round action. Again if this happens in the middle of combat, you are correct, but not so if its the surprise round.. he gets to change a Standard (or Move) action (the delayed action) into a Full Round action which is an advantage. What? What is he changing? Here's how I see it, assuming it's only him and one monster in the surprise round, and the rest of the monsters and his party in the full round. Assume Player A is the one in question: If he doesn't delay Surprise Round Monster 1: 19 (1 action) Player A: 4 (1 action) 1st Round Monster 1: 19 Monster 2: 17 Player B: 15 Player C: 12 Monster 3: 10 Player A: 4 If he delays Surprise Round Monster 1: 19 (1 action) Player A: None, delays 1st round Player A: 20 Monster 1: 19 Monster 2: 17 Player B: 15 Player C: 12 Monster 3: 10 My point is, he's not gaining anything he didn't already have. In both scenarios, he *has* a full round action in round 1. In one instance, it comes last, the other, it comes first. To get it to come first, he needs to give up his single action from the surprise round, but he isn't getting extra actions because of it. Because of the circular combat model, he does get to use his full attack now before the monsters, instead of after, but he does lose his single action from the surprise round in exchange. I think that's a fair trade. It won't make any difference after the first round is over anyways, it's only a temporary benefit. Anyways, I said I didn't want to argue this here, even though that's what I'm doing. There's already a thread up about this, and discussion on it should be confined to it. Arguing about it here won't help anything. If the OP wants to, he can check out that thread as well.
tricky_bob 07-26-07, 03:55 PM	What? What is he changing? Here's how I see it, assuming it's only him and one monster in the surprise round, and the rest of the monsters and his party in the full round. Assume Player A is the one in question: If he doesn't delay Surprise Round Monster 1: 19 (1 action) Player A: 4 (1 action) 1st Round Monster 1: 19 Monster 2: 17 Player B: 15 Player C: 12 Monster 3: 10 Player A: 4 If he delays Surprise Round Monster 1: 19 (1 action) Player A: None, delays 1st round Player A: 20 Monster 1: 19 Monster 2: 17 Player B: 15 Player C: 12 Monster 3: 10 My point is, he's not gaining anything he didn't already have. In both scenarios, he *has* a full round action in round 1. In one instance, it comes last, the other, it comes first. To get it to come first, he needs to give up his single action from the surprise round, but he isn't getting extra actions because of it. Because of the circular combat model, he does get to use his full attack now before the monsters, instead of after, but he does lose his single action from the surprise round in exchange. I think that's a fair trade. It won't make any difference after the first round is over anyways, it's only a temporary benefit. Yes, On page 160 it does say that if you delay into the next round your initiative count can be higher but you would only be able to use the delayed action and not a full one. Sorry, I was concentrating on the Surprise rules and not on the Delay ones!
weasel0 07-26-07, 04:00 PM	PHB160 says you can very well delay into another round. Doing so, however, only allows you to take the delayed action and denies you the actions you would regularly be entitled to in the new round (assuming you choose to delay to a point before your next turn). If you delay your surprise action, you go "can" be first in the first round but still only get the delayed surprise action. At which point, he has 1 action in a full round. Everyone else gets a full round.
tricky_bob 07-26-07, 04:03 PM	It seems you are placing too much emphasis on a situation that will not come up that often in most games. You are quite right, I miss read the bit at the end about the delayed action having to be used if you delay it to gain initiative position in the first normal round, Sorry about that.
tricky_bob 07-26-07, 04:22 PM	If you delay your surprise action, your go, "can" be first in the first round but you still only get the delayed surprise action. At which point, he has 1 action in a full round. Everyone else gets a full round. You are correct, see above! To be fair to all involved, this is nothing new with WotC books and rules. You only have to start looking at the history of Wildshape and Polymorph to give yourself one mighty headache! :) On a brighter note, these threads clearly show that we do care about our hobby and thats a good thing (even if we can't entirely agree on it ;) ).
Marcus Majarra 07-26-07, 05:17 PM	My point is, he's not gaining anything he didn't already have. That's only because you're not measuring rounds from the start of one initiative count until the moment right before the start of the same initiative count, one round later. You're arbitrarily deciding that the beginning and end of a round are important here. The PHB states the following: "For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round." Using your logic, a character can gain more actions for the same 1-round span by delaying in the surprise round. If you want the proof, simply consider your own example: • How many actions does Player A get between initiative 4 in the surprise round and initiative 4 in the first round without delaying? 1 standard/move action. • How many actions does Player A get between initiative 4 in the surprise round and initiative 4 in the first round by delaying to initiative 25? 1 full-round action. In the same contiguous time span, the character is indeed getting more actions. He's not sacrificing anything at all, since all effects that can be measured in time always last from one initiative count to the same initiative count in another round.
Karui_Kage 07-26-07, 06:36 PM	In that time span....no. You say he only gets a standard/move action without delaying between initiative 4 in surprise and initiative 4 on round one. Maybe I'm interpreting you wrong, and you stop just before init 4, but if you go until his init, he'd get his full round action for round 1. However, I do agree that for all purposes, there's no real difference between start and end. Let's look at it a bit further: • How many actions does Player A get between initiative 4 in the surprise round and initiative 4 in the second round without delaying? 1 partial action (surprise), 1 full-round action (first), 1 full-round action (second). • How many actions does Player A get between initiative 4 in the surprise round and initiative 4 in the second round by delaying to initiative 25? 1 partial (first), 1 full-round action (second). So while it seems like he gains something, he in fact still loses his oppurtunity to act in the surprise round, while gaining an arbitrary 'bonus' by acting first in the first round. Of course, this assumes that he only gets to delay and carry over a 'partial', like others have suggested. If he would gain a full-round action, then that would change scenario 2 a bit. Either way, he'd get more actions in scenario 1. Let's take a look at it in a stream, and not categorize things into rounds. Let's assume that there is the delaying player, a second PC, and one monster. Let's also assume that, for simplicity's sake, it takes four attacks to kill the beast. Everyone always hits, and does average damage. Scenario 1: Player A does not delay, has Init 4. Player B has init 22. Monster A has init 17. Monster (Partial Action) Player A (Partial Action) - Maybe hits monster once, count as 0.5 attacks Player B - Monster has 1.5 hits Monster Player A - Monster has 2.5 hits Player B - Monster has 3.5 hits Monster Player A - Monster has 4.5 hits, dies Scenario 2: Player A does delay, his initiative becomes 25: Monster (Partial Action) Player A - Gets a partial from delaying, if the other posts are correct, and does 0.5 hits Player B - Monster has 1.5 hits Monster Player A - Monster has 2.5 hits Player B - Monster has 3.5 hits Monster Player A - Monster has 4.5 hits, dies So in Scenario 1, the monster gets two full actions and one partial before going down. In Scenario 2, the monster gets two full actions and one partial before going down. It depends on what the player gains by delaying. If he gets a full action, then the monster would go down sooner, and only get off one full action and one partial. If the player only gets a partial still, then there is no benefit, but no real loss either. All in all, it's so minor, and the instances can be very different. If the monster had a higher initiative then Player B, for example, there would be different results. Overall though, I find nothing poor about sacrificing a surprise round to 'gain' the opportunity to act first in the first round. It's a mental nicety, in that the player now sees himself as 'first', where-as like you said, there's no real boundaries between rounds, so it's virtually meaningless. Phew. That was long. My apologies. :) Edit: Cleaned it up a little bit. If you read this before I did so, sorry about that. ;)
Marcus Majarra 07-27-07, 03:17 AM	In that time span....no. You say he only gets a standard/move action without delaying between initiative 4 in surprise and initiative 4 on round one. Maybe I'm interpreting you wrong, and you stop just before init 4, but if you go until his init, he'd get his full round action for round 1. You were indeed interpreting things incorrectly. The time span of a round lasts from an initiative count until right before the same initiative count in the next round. Let's take a look at it in a stream, and not categorize things into rounds. There's a few mistakes with your examples, as well. Here they are again, starting with Player B's turn in the surprise round, and ending right before his initiative on round three: Scenario 1: Player A does not delay, has Init 4. Player B has init 22. Monster A has init 17. 0.22 Player B (Partial Action) 0.17 Monster (Partial Action) 0.4 Player A (Partial Action) 1.22 Player B 1.17 Monster 1.4 Player A 2.22 Player B 2.17 Monster 2.4 Player A Total actions for each: 2.5. Scenario 2: Player A does delay, his initiative becomes 25: 0.22 Player B (Partial Action) 0.17 Monster (Partial Action) 0.4 -> 1.25 Player A (DELAY to Init 25, no change in stream) 1.22 Player B 1.17 Monster 2.25 Player A 2.22 Player B 2.17 Monster 3.25 Player A How many actions have all creatures had now? If you begin assuming that delaying into the first round from surprise allows you to take your full-round's actions, then Player A is receiving 3 actions in the same contiguous time span, despite both Player B and Monster A receiving only 2.5. This is where this kind of logic fails. Delaying can only cause you to retain your usual number of actions (if, by delaying, you do not change the order of activations), or to lose some relatively to other creatures (if you choose to act after the others). The amount of actions you're getting cannot increase.
Leilond 07-27-07, 06:42 AM	I will add my two cents Dealaying to act "first in the regular round" is pure metagaming and I will completely forbit it. I admit "delaying" to see something happens, but never delaying to change your initiative number without changing the "creatures order". You delay, waiting for something that make it "the right moment to act". - You delay to act before anyone had taken his "regular round action": you're in the surprise round, thus you can do only a standard action - You delay to act after at least one creature had acted in the regular round: you're in the regular round, thus you can use your full round action The most important thing is that "surprised" creature do not roll for initiative in the surprise round. If you delay to "wait that they roll" and one of those creature roll the higher value, it is "his turn to act" and you cannot interrupt his action using delay. Thus, if you want to act before everyone roll the initiative in the regular round, you're still in the surprise round. Once the "initiative" for the regular round is rolled, it is the turn of the creature with the higher initiative to act, delay do not let you interrupt someone acting, thus you have act after him Thus, you cannot delay your surprise round action to act "first in the regular round". The rules, how I understand them, do not let you do it. If you want, you can act "second" in the round P.S. MY HOUSE RULE I will SURELY house rule that if you delay a surprise round action you'll obtain only a standard to be used... you cannot obtain from a delay, more action than you sacrificed
tricky_bob 07-27-07, 10:50 AM	Wow, this has gone full circle now... Page 160 under Initiative Consequences of Delaying If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round. To me, this says you can delay your action (even in the surprise round) to go first (or whenever) in the next round of combat but you only get the Delayed action. So in the case of the Surprise round, you can't delay to get a Full round of actions (which would be a bonus, you'd be losing a Standard action in favour of a Full action) because when you do have your turn in the following round, its only the Delayed action that you can have (not a bonus, as you've given up a Standard action and gained the exact same thing, just one round later) Well done Wizards..clear as mud :) It would have been useful to have a reference to the Charge exception allowed in the Surprise round on the same page and also the Delay actions on the same page too. Have you guys not seen Ptolus and how it cross references everything on the outer edges of each page?
Karui_Kage 07-27-07, 11:49 AM	There's a few mistakes with your examples, as well. -snip- Besides my mistake on not including Player B in the surprise round ( I had a sentence where I said Player A and the monster were the only two to act, but removed it for simplicity's sake and forgot to alter the chart), I think we agree. Because of the ruling that you only get a partial action if you delay from a surprise round, there's no increase of actions, and no real benefit, by delaying. Of course, I am a bit confused by your change in stance. In your previous post, where you said "In the same contiguous time span, the character is indeed getting more actions. He's not sacrificing anything at all, since all effects that can be measured in time always last from one initiative count to the same initiative count in another round.", I thought you were saying that there was a benefit from delaying. In this last post however, besides saying that it is now a partial action he'd get from delaying (not a full round), you also agree that there is no real benefit from delaying. So... I *think* we're on the same page. Just not sure.
Karui_Kage 07-27-07, 11:57 AM	Ignore this. I was further arguing this mechanic, something I didn't want to do in this thread. My bad. :)
Marcus Majarra 07-27-07, 01:10 PM	I thought you were saying that there was a benefit from delaying. In this last post however, besides saying that it is now a partial action he'd get from delaying (not a full round), you also agree that there is no real benefit from delaying. My stance is simple: there is no mechanical benefit to delaying. The only benefits to be considered when delaying are tactical ones. Effectively, you only get to choose when you act, in order to better coordinate your actions with others'. Skirmish and flanking tactics benefit a lot from delaying and readying, for example.
Karui_Kage 07-27-07, 03:38 PM	Then we are in agreement.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-28-07, 11:20 AM	> For full round casting time, you begin casting on your initiative, and end > casting the next time your initiative comes up. Careful. For a "one round" casting time, that's what happens. For a "full round" casting time, you begin and end on your turn just like normal - the only difference is that it uses a full-round action rather than a standard action. "One round" is found on things like Summon Monster. "Full round" typically results from a sorcerer using metamagic.
mvincent 07-30-07, 01:19 PM	I am not sure I agree with the circular thinking on initiative.From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm) (if desired): "For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."
mvincent 07-30-07, 02:40 PM	the most elegant solution and one that should have been FAQ'ed into the rules is that whatever round's worth of actions you delay, that's as many actions as you get to take on the delay.Agreed. In fact, I can't really imagine a rules-lawyer certified DM handling it differently. If asked, I'm almost positive that's how Sage advice would reply (although possibly phrased a bit more intuitively).
Marcus Majarra 07-30-07, 03:28 PM	Agreed. In fact, I can't really imagine a rules-lawyer certified DM handling it differently. If asked, I'm almost positive that's how Sage advice would reply (although possibly phrased a bit more intuitively). Not that I agree in any way with that kind of reasoning, people who claimed otherwise defended their claims by stating that the delay rules stipulate that you act normally on whatever initiative count you choose to act on. They argued that in a normal round, acting normally means getting your standard + move action. I wholeheartedly disagree with this kind of reasoning, mostly because the beginning/end of the round are irrelevant and that actions are awarded to you when your turn comes up in the initiative sequence (not at the beginning of the round).
Nigel Rorris 07-31-07, 10:55 PM	4.) Say a person with a high initiative readies an action, yet that action is not provoked, can they change their mind at the end of the turn and do something different, putting them at the end of the initiative ladder? I've no idea what the others are talking about, and maybe they can explain it to me, but you have decided on a course of action...if the trigger does not occur before your next turn you cannot decide at some point before you next turn to change what you want to do... You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. Your PC has an initiative of 20 and he wants to ready an action to disrupt the enemy caster if he casts a spell and the caster's has an init of 12...the enemy does not cast. Your PC cannot now change his ready action to attack the fighter that just came up to him.
mvincent 07-31-07, 11:20 PM	Not that I agree in any way with that kind of reasoning, people who claimed otherwise defended their claims by stating that the delay rules stipulate that you act normally on whatever initiative count you choose to act on. They argued that in a normal round, acting normally means getting your standard + move action. I wholeheartedly disagree with this kind of reasoning, mostly because the beginning/end of the round are irrelevant and that actions are awarded to you when your turn comes up in the initiative sequence (not at the beginning of the round).You post is somewhat unclear to me (i.e. I'm uncertain which side you are arguing), but to clarify my position: You cannot delay the surprise round action it in order to make it a full-round action. I'm fairly certain most players (including the Sage and the original authors) would say the same thing.
Marcus Majarra 08-01-07, 12:17 AM	You post is somewhat unclear to me (i.e. I'm uncertain which side you are arguing), but to clarify my position: You cannot delay the surprise round action it in order to make it a full-round action. I'm fairly certain most players (including the Sage and the original authors) would say the same thing. I wasn't arguing about the point. In fact, I agree with what you've stated. I was merely pointing out "the other point of view," as it was recently discussed in another topic (and it had received quite a lot of support).
mvincent 08-01-07, 12:35 AM	I was merely pointing out "the other point of view,"Ah. Got it. Thanks (I had read your post wrong). By strict RAW yes, their interpretation is viable, but pretty clearly not by RAI.
Marcus Majarra 08-01-07, 09:55 AM	Ah. Got it. Thanks (I had read your post wrong). By strict RAW yes, their interpretation is viable, but pretty clearly not by RAI. Actually, I found that by strict RAW, it wasn't viable, simply because all the instances in which you're delaying into a new round refer to your taking "your delayed action," which is simply the kind of action(s) your were entitled to when you chose to delay.
Man in the Funny Hat 08-01-07, 07:49 PM	1.) If a player rolls a crappy initiative, can he delay until the beginning of the next turn and thus act first in a round?Yes, but it's an absolutely stupid thing to do because while you may be "first" in the initiative order at THAT point, EVERYONE else will still have had opportunity to act and you won't have contributed anything yourself. To think that you gain any advantage by obtaining the position of first in intiative order AFTER the initial round demonstrates a misunderstanding of how cyclic intiative works. 2.) How about readying an action until X player starts to act when X (or monster) has the top initiative, thus resetting them to the top of the ladder? For example, the Wizard gets a 20 initiative and the Rogue rolls a 1 and gets a 5 initiative (the lowest of the party) ... can the rogue then state he is waiting to see if the wizard is casting before they make their move, thus getting an effective 21 initiative?Readying actions should be used for those occasions when what you want your character to do hinges directly on other characters actions (or those outside of your control). Simply using it to rearrange your place in the initiative order has no inherent advantage after the first round because there ISN'T an inherent advantage to where anyone is in the initiative order after the first round. For example. Your PC has initiative 15. A monster has initiative 20. It's the secound round and your inititive comes up. If you simply take your action you are acting before the monster acts next round and everyone slower than you in the order ALSO gets to act, though only after you do. But, suppose you ready an action to trigger upon the action of the monster. Everyone else who WAS slower than you now gets to act BEFORE you do. Your action then triggers when the monster acts placing you just ahead of the monster in intiative order. You've gained NOTHING as regards initiative and in fact have lost advantage to anyone who WAS acting "slower" than you. Though you're at the top of the initiative order now you don't have any greater initiative advantage over the monster because of it. You act - then it acts. Without the ready action: you act - then it acts. In subsequent rounds there is also no advantage conferred to you for being tops in the order because that advantage is used up at the very outset of the battle. It's determined by your place in the initiative order in the FIRST round when you get to act before others can REACT to you. After that it's a matter of taking turns and while you can allow others to pass you by in the order while readying or something similar, you can't jump BACKWARDS in time and knock OTHERS out of position enabling you to take additional turns before they get theirs. 3.) Can an action that has been readied be held through to the next turn? That is, say my ranger has stated "I nock an arrow and ready myself to shoot the first spellcaster I see." and no spells are cast after that statement and the new round begins, can they then shoot the cleric that casts a heal spell?Essentially readied actions become wasted actions if nothing triggers them BEFORE your next turn. Say for example your initiative is 12 and you ready an action to shoot the first person to cast a spell, but nobody does. In the next round when initiative 12 comes up you don't get to take a free round because you didn't technically do anything LAST round - and then on top of that take your turn for THIS round. When you mess with your position in the initiative order you are ALWAYS sacrificing the advantage of acting NOW for the purpose of doing something special LATER. You CANNOT gain an initiative advantage unless you can force an intiative change on OTHERS to the point where they "lose a turn". AFAIK there's nothing in the rules that enables PC's to do that. 4.) Say a person with a high initiative readies an action, yet that action is not provoked, can they change their mind at the end of the turn and do something different, putting them at the end of the initiative ladder?Or to use the correct terminology: Can a character ready an action on THEIR turn, not see it triggered during the rest of the round, and then at the END of the round change their minds about what they wanted to do and take ANOTHER turn and do something completely different (since now they know that what they chose to do initially didn't actually work). No, you can't do that. * * * Initiative in 3E is cyclic. All the advantage of going first means LITERALLY going first. After that nobody is going to "go first" anymore until the combat is OVER and another one starts. When you act FIRST, before any of your opponents can act, you have the opportunity to POSSIBLY put them at a disadvantage for the remainder of the combat, either by killing them outright (rather a disadvantage :)) inflicting penalties, granting your side advantages, etc. After that it is ENTIRELY a question of who goes next. First is OVER with. Gone. Used up. Although the order in which turns are then taken MIGHT change some, everyone DOES get their turn. There are no feats or abilities that enable you to take two turns in a row before someone else in the initiative order can act and thus changing your place in the initiative order gains you no advantage. If you want the advantage of acting first then put your efforts into improving your initiative roll and getting surprise on your enemies. Otherwise, when YOUR turn comes up you should almost always take actions that will be effective RIGHT NOW. Kill or disable the enemy with your actions NOW. Nobody gets their turn SKIPPED in a round unless they've been somehow disabled. Changing your place in the initiative order is ALWAYS a function of sacrificing your chance to act NOW. If you make that sacrifice it should be for an advantage that is likely to come later. You don't ready to shoot a spellcaster to change your initiative - you ready to shoot them to disrupt their spells while still inflicting damage or because you can't see them NOW, but know you will later in the round.
weepingminotaur 11-08-07, 02:34 PM	Another initiative question: a character with an initiative count of, say, 16, is dropped by damage in combat. Another character with initiative count 8 immediately casts a healing spell on him that puts him back up at positive HP. Does the first character's initiative reset to the second character's, or does it stay the same, or does it switch to something different?
mvincent 11-08-07, 02:50 PM	Another initiative question: a character with an initiative count of, say, 16, is dropped by damage in combat. Another character with initiative count 8 immediately casts a healing spell on him that puts him back up at positive HP. Does the first character's initiative reset to the second character's, or does it stay the same, or does it switch to something different?It stays the same. This can be a bit unfair if your count had just past, so some house-rule that it stays the same unless you have already missed a turn, in which case you get to act immediately.
weepingminotaur 11-08-07, 03:09 PM	It stays the same. This can be a bit unfair if your count had just past, so some house-rule that it stays the same unless you have already missed a turn, in which case you get to act immediately. Thanks for clearing that up! :)