Inquisitor Bracers - did they forget something? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Inquisitor Bracers - did they forget something? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
curan69
01-23-08, 12:52 PM I'm reading the Description of Inquisitor Bracers (Magic Item Compendium)
and a few things have caught my attention. Just to explain what i'm talking about it says...
"After you activate these bracers, the next melee attack you make before the end of your turn includes a cure moderate wounds effect(in addition to the normal damage dealt by the attack)" It also specifies "you can't use these bracers as part of a touch attack - only as part of a normal melee attack"

Unlike lots of other items it doesn't specify that the melee attack has to be succesful. It also doesn't specify that the melee attack has to do damage.

Unlike other ablities it also doesn't tell you that the use is wasted if you miss. Which also make me wonder if the attack has to be successful.

The wording makes it seem like the cure moderate wounds effect happens whether your attack is succesful or not.

FYI. the description of these bracers says they are "a potent method for sorting out normal townsfolk from conniving vampires or similarily stealthy undead" The idea being the cure moderate will hurt undead but heal any innocent target you just whacked.

I would assume that since they are a caster level five item the cure moderate would do 2d8+5.

Am I reading into it too much by wondering if the attack has to be successful?

or should I just take it for what it says, in which case the only prerequsite is a melee attack, successful or not.
Salla
01-23-08, 05:05 PM I would assume that the CMW technique operates along the lines of standard touch attacks, meaning you retain the 'charge' until you make contact.

So, you either hit, and deal damage and heal damage (AFAIK, you can still deal nonlethal damage with that attack), or miss and hold the CMW charge.
Sinfire Titan
01-23-08, 05:14 PM I would assume that the CMW technique operates along the lines of standard touch attacks, meaning you retain the 'charge' until you make contact.

So, you either hit, and deal damage and heal damage (AFAIK, you can still deal nonlethal damage with that attack), or miss and hold the CMW charge.

"After you activate these bracers, the next melee attack you make before the end of your turn includes a cure moderate wounds effect(in addition to the normal damage dealt by the attack)" It also specifies "you can't use these bracers as part of a touch attack - only as part of a normal melee attack"

No, it is discharged at the end of the turn, the ability would be wasted, and you would have just swung at a guy and failed miserably.
Salla
01-23-08, 05:16 PM No, it is discharged at the end of the turn, the ability would be wasted, and you would have just swung at a guy and failed miserably.

Whoops. Overlooked that.
curan69
01-23-08, 05:56 PM The point of my question is what criteria have to be met for the Cure moderate wounds effect to take place.

Reading the description the only criteria it says is a melee attack.

A spell storing weapon specifically states that the weapon must hit AND cause damage for the spell to take effect. Why wouldnt they put the same criteria on the Inquisitor Bracers?
Wih
01-23-08, 09:12 PM The point of my question is what criteria have to be met for the Cure moderate wounds effect to take place.

Reading the description the only criteria it says is a melee attack.

A spell storing weapon specifically states that the weapon must hit AND cause damage for the spell to take effect. Why wouldnt they put the same criteria on the Inquisitor Bracers?

Because with this, you can poke a Lich with a Rapier, not bypassing it's DR, and still discharge the CMW.
Marcus Majarra
01-24-08, 12:49 AM Since the item specifies that the spell effect is in addition to the damage of the attack, I would guess that not only do you have to hit your target, but you must also deal damage, in order to deliver the spell effect.
curan69
01-24-08, 07:52 AM Thanks to everyone so far.

I realized that it doesn't have to say successful melee attack because the only way to deliver a spell is for the attack to be successful. If the attack isn't successful there is no mechanism to deliver the spell.

I must agree with WIH in that you dont have to do damage to deliver the spell.
Yes it tells you that the spell is in addition to the normal damage dealt by the attack, but it doesn't say that the normal attack HAS to deal damage for the spell to work.

I just wish the wording was a little more clear.

The Spell storing weapon description tells you the attack has to be successful AND it must deal damage.

Weapon Energy enhancements tell you that the attack has to be successful.
Wih
01-24-08, 07:55 PM Since the item specifies that the spell effect is in addition to the damage of the attack, I would guess that not only do you have to hit your target, but you must also deal damage, in order to deliver the spell effect.

Not quite - you get to do the CMW in addition to the damage of your weapon. So, if your weapon does 10 damage, you do 10 damage + CMW. If your weapon does 0 damage (due to DR), you do 0 damage + CMW. Since you can never do negative damage, the least you could do on a successful attack would be 0 damage + CMW.

It says nowhere in the description of the item that the attack has to do damage for the CMW to take effect. Just that it's added to the effect of your attack.
Marcus Majarra
01-24-08, 09:45 PM It says nowhere in the description of the item that the attack has to do damage for the CMW to take effect. Just that it's added to the effect of your attack.
Incorrect. It's added to your normal damage. If your attack doesn't hit, you're not dealing damage, and as such the bracers are useless. This is from the item's description. Furthermore, have you even considered the range for cure moderate wounds? How can you deliver a touch-range effect without touching your target?
weasel0
01-24-08, 11:18 PM I believe Marcus, you somehow missed his first paragraph where Wih indicates that a successful hit sometimes result in no damage.

To help clarify- DR or Hardness can reduce damage TAKEN to 0. You hit. You roll damage dealt. DR and Hardness will cause a certain amount to be ignored sometimes resulting in the target taking no damage. It's not that you failed to deal damage. You just didn't deal enough. But you still landed your attack successfully.

Edit: Ninja for the win! :P
Sildatorak
01-24-08, 11:18 PM Incorrect. It's added to your normal damage. If your attack doesn't hit, you're not dealing damage, and as such the bracers are useless. This is from the item's description. Furthermore, have you even considered the range for cure moderate wounds? How can you deliver a touch-range effect without touching your target?

I don't think that Wih is saying you just have to swing, only that you have to hit. So stabbing your barbarian ally with the DR lightly may be entirely healing instead of healing less a few points to repair the stab wound.
Marcus Majarra
01-25-08, 07:08 PM Sorry for the misunderstanding.
eamon
01-28-08, 07:21 AM This looks exactly like the duskblade's arcane channeling ability. That allows delivering a touch spell with a melee weapon attack. On a successful attack, the damage is dealt and then the spell effect resolved.

Is an attack successful if it deals no damage because of DR? It sounds a little weird, but it sounds like it should be, to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
curan69 01-23-08, 12:52 PM	I'm reading the Description of Inquisitor Bracers (Magic Item Compendium) and a few things have caught my attention. Just to explain what i'm talking about it says... "After you activate these bracers, the next melee attack you make before the end of your turn includes a cure moderate wounds effect(in addition to the normal damage dealt by the attack)" It also specifies "you can't use these bracers as part of a touch attack - only as part of a normal melee attack" Unlike lots of other items it doesn't specify that the melee attack has to be succesful. It also doesn't specify that the melee attack has to do damage. Unlike other ablities it also doesn't tell you that the use is wasted if you miss. Which also make me wonder if the attack has to be successful. The wording makes it seem like the cure moderate wounds effect happens whether your attack is succesful or not. FYI. the description of these bracers says they are "a potent method for sorting out normal townsfolk from conniving vampires or similarily stealthy undead" The idea being the cure moderate will hurt undead but heal any innocent target you just whacked. I would assume that since they are a caster level five item the cure moderate would do 2d8+5. Am I reading into it too much by wondering if the attack has to be successful? or should I just take it for what it says, in which case the only prerequsite is a melee attack, successful or not.
Salla 01-23-08, 05:05 PM	I would assume that the CMW technique operates along the lines of standard touch attacks, meaning you retain the 'charge' until you make contact. So, you either hit, and deal damage and heal damage (AFAIK, you can still deal nonlethal damage with that attack), or miss and hold the CMW charge.
Sinfire Titan 01-23-08, 05:14 PM	I would assume that the CMW technique operates along the lines of standard touch attacks, meaning you retain the 'charge' until you make contact. So, you either hit, and deal damage and heal damage (AFAIK, you can still deal nonlethal damage with that attack), or miss and hold the CMW charge. "After you activate these bracers, the next melee attack you make before the end of your turn includes a cure moderate wounds effect(in addition to the normal damage dealt by the attack)" It also specifies "you can't use these bracers as part of a touch attack - only as part of a normal melee attack" No, it is discharged at the end of the turn, the ability would be wasted, and you would have just swung at a guy and failed miserably.
Salla 01-23-08, 05:16 PM	No, it is discharged at the end of the turn, the ability would be wasted, and you would have just swung at a guy and failed miserably. Whoops. Overlooked that.
curan69 01-23-08, 05:56 PM	The point of my question is what criteria have to be met for the Cure moderate wounds effect to take place. Reading the description the only criteria it says is a melee attack. A spell storing weapon specifically states that the weapon must hit AND cause damage for the spell to take effect. Why wouldnt they put the same criteria on the Inquisitor Bracers?
Wih 01-23-08, 09:12 PM	The point of my question is what criteria have to be met for the Cure moderate wounds effect to take place. Reading the description the only criteria it says is a melee attack. A spell storing weapon specifically states that the weapon must hit AND cause damage for the spell to take effect. Why wouldnt they put the same criteria on the Inquisitor Bracers? Because with this, you can poke a Lich with a Rapier, not bypassing it's DR, and still discharge the CMW.
Marcus Majarra 01-24-08, 12:49 AM	Since the item specifies that the spell effect is in addition to the damage of the attack, I would guess that not only do you have to hit your target, but you must also deal damage, in order to deliver the spell effect.
curan69 01-24-08, 07:52 AM	Thanks to everyone so far. I realized that it doesn't have to say successful melee attack because the only way to deliver a spell is for the attack to be successful. If the attack isn't successful there is no mechanism to deliver the spell. I must agree with WIH in that you dont have to do damage to deliver the spell. Yes it tells you that the spell is in addition to the normal damage dealt by the attack, but it doesn't say that the normal attack HAS to deal damage for the spell to work. I just wish the wording was a little more clear. The Spell storing weapon description tells you the attack has to be successful AND it must deal damage. Weapon Energy enhancements tell you that the attack has to be successful.
Wih 01-24-08, 07:55 PM	Since the item specifies that the spell effect is in addition to the damage of the attack, I would guess that not only do you have to hit your target, but you must also deal damage, in order to deliver the spell effect. Not quite - you get to do the CMW in addition to the damage of your weapon. So, if your weapon does 10 damage, you do 10 damage + CMW. If your weapon does 0 damage (due to DR), you do 0 damage + CMW. Since you can never do negative damage, the least you could do on a successful attack would be 0 damage + CMW. It says nowhere in the description of the item that the attack has to do damage for the CMW to take effect. Just that it's added to the effect of your attack.
Marcus Majarra 01-24-08, 09:45 PM	It says nowhere in the description of the item that the attack has to do damage for the CMW to take effect. Just that it's added to the effect of your attack. Incorrect. It's added to your normal damage. If your attack doesn't hit, you're not dealing damage, and as such the bracers are useless. This is from the item's description. Furthermore, have you even considered the range for cure moderate wounds? How can you deliver a touch-range effect without touching your target?
weasel0 01-24-08, 11:18 PM	I believe Marcus, you somehow missed his first paragraph where Wih indicates that a successful hit sometimes result in no damage. To help clarify- DR or Hardness can reduce damage TAKEN to 0. You hit. You roll damage dealt. DR and Hardness will cause a certain amount to be ignored sometimes resulting in the target taking no damage. It's not that you failed to deal damage. You just didn't deal enough. But you still landed your attack successfully. Edit: Ninja for the win! :P
Sildatorak 01-24-08, 11:18 PM	Incorrect. It's added to your normal damage. If your attack doesn't hit, you're not dealing damage, and as such the bracers are useless. This is from the item's description. Furthermore, have you even considered the range for cure moderate wounds? How can you deliver a touch-range effect without touching your target? I don't think that Wih is saying you just have to swing, only that you have to hit. So stabbing your barbarian ally with the DR lightly may be entirely healing instead of healing less a few points to repair the stab wound.
Marcus Majarra 01-25-08, 07:08 PM	Sorry for the misunderstanding.
eamon 01-28-08, 07:21 AM	This looks exactly like the duskblade's arcane channeling ability. That allows delivering a touch spell with a melee weapon attack. On a successful attack, the damage is dealt and then the spell effect resolved. Is an attack successful if it deals no damage because of DR? It sounds a little weird, but it sounds like it should be, to me.