Invisible Spell Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Invisible Spell Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Light_Colonel
06-04-07, 03:30 PM Out of Cityscape...

Basically, it makes the effects of your spell, invisible.

Now in reading the spell there is no limitation on this, nor a time limit as far as I could tell. It also has a staggering +0 LVL mod.

These question I am about to ask is simply this...

Wouldn't using this feat allow you to summon Invisible whatevers via the various Summon Monster/Undead/Nature's Ally spells?

I read and re-read the feat, hoping to find something that would prevent this from working. But I cannot find anything that would stop it from working just like that.

Please tell me I am wrong.
lint trap
06-04-07, 03:44 PM You are wrong. You're welcome.

But seriously, if you're worried, just houserule that Invisible Spell can't be applied to any spell that has "SR: No" in the spell description.
Kragg Bonemeal
06-04-07, 03:45 PM You are wrong. The effect is invisible, but the Summoned Creature, that acts/looks like any other creature of its type is... well... whatever that looks like. Unless you summon an Invisible Stalker, most creatures have a visible property. This is so you can have a Fireball that cooks a bunch of people, but nobody sees the flash of fire... Lightning Bolts that just make people along a line jerk and spasm when you point your finger at them. You also get Spiritual Weapons and Magic Missiles that don't give away your position as they come streaking away from you. (Although you still need to Gesture and Chant for verbal/somatic.)

For Summon Creature... the *poof* of smoke as they appear is invisible.

***EDIT*** If your players, in an annoying simpering voice, say "But it says the effect is invisible, and the creature is the effect", then just throw a Summoner at them, TPK, laugh, and say "Quit being such abusive morons! Now... roll up a new character."
ItaraKoturo
06-04-07, 04:42 PM You are wrong. The effect is invisible, but the Summoned Creature, that acts/looks like any other creature of its type is... well... whatever that looks like.
No, the effect is the creature (Effect: One summoned creature). The creature(s) summoned by Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally would be invisible.
Unless you summon an Invisible Stalker, most creatures have a visible property.
So do Fireballs, but not ones with this metamagic feat applied to them. The creatures would be invisible.
For Summon Creature... the *poof* of smoke as they appear is invisible.
There is no "poof" of smoke. The creature is the effect, and the effect is invisible.
***EDIT*** If your players, in an annoying simpering voice, say "But it says the effect is invisible, and the creature is the effect", then just throw a Summoner at them, TPK, laugh, and say "Quit being such abusive morons! Now... roll up a new character."
Yeah, that's a great way to handle a rules dispute like this. TPK your party for being creative instead of working out a way to balance this (like, perhaps, insisting that spells with a duration attached take up an extra spell level or something like that). Besides, have you considered that maybe, just maybe this isn't that unbalancing of a ruling? A second-level spell that any caster worth their salt should have readied anyway (see invisible) counters it. To boot, your party could probably kick the pants off the TPK summoner you've created, because the Wizard ought to have that spell memorized. :rolleyes:
Ebonarc
06-04-07, 10:02 PM I don't have Cityscape yet (Amazon.com has terrible shipping speeds, but it is on its way), but it sounds like the intent of this feat is partially to hide the caster as they snipe targets. The effect of fireball is a huge eruption of fire, but it starts out as a pea sized sphere that leaves the caster's hand and moves to the center of the spell's target.

Having this feat means that a spellcaster could roast a group of enemies and the survivors wouldn't know where the fireball came from. Useful for assassinations and spywork.
Light_Colonel
06-05-07, 06:23 AM I don't have Cityscape yet (Amazon.com has terrible shipping speeds, but it is on its way), but it sounds like the intent of this feat is partially to hide the caster as they snipe targets. The effect of fireball is a huge eruption of fire, but it starts out as a pea sized sphere that leaves the caster's hand and moves to the center of the spell's target.

Having this feat means that a spellcaster could roast a group of enemies and the survivors wouldn't know where the fireball came from. Useful for assassinations and spywork.

I wish that were the case.

Unfortunately the description of the feat lists the fireball as being invisible at all stages, not just streaking to and from targets. Its also invisible while exploding with explodeyness.
vonklaude
06-05-07, 07:16 AM I wish that were the case.

Unfortunately the description of the feat lists the fireball as being invisible at all stages, not just streaking to and from targets. Its also invisible while exploding with explodeyness.

Sounds like a crappy piece of design to me. Disallow the feat until you have trialled it by giving it to one of your NPCs. If it creams the party, assume it is over-powered ;)

Seriously though, my system for introducing stuff I'm not sure of is to give it to NPCs first. Usually, but not always, to enemies of the party. I've been doing that with Spell Compendium. It means I get my money's worth from the book, and players meet things they've never heard of.

If the spell/feat/whatever proves reasonably balanced in play under my control, I allow it to be learnt when a player next has an opportunity, provided there is an in-game or reasonable background justification why they might have access to it. I do sometimes allow untried things when players specifically request them, but only at my discretion.
Light_Colonel
06-05-07, 07:44 AM As an interesting side note;

I emailed CustServ just after I posted this thread.

According to CustServ the *intent* of the feat is not to do so much as I am ascribing to it. It *should* only make the puff of smoke invisible when using Summon Monster.

However, from a purely legal standpoint, the description of the SM spells says "Effect: Summoned Monster" not "Effect: Puff of Smoke that Summons a Monster".

This may very well be the first and only feat that I outright ban as being broken on the face of it.

Even if you ignore the whole invisible summmons part of the spell, it still allows abuses like:

Invisible Prismatic Walls
Invisible Walls of Iron
Invisible Weapons of the Deity
Invisible Evards Black Tentacles
Invisible Blade Barrier
Invisible ten million other things that should never be Invisible...

And the spell modifier is +0!
Kragg Bonemeal
06-05-07, 09:43 AM No, the effect is the creature (Effect: One summoned creature). The creature(s) summoned by Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally would be invisible.

So do Fireballs, but not ones with this metamagic feat applied to them. The creatures would be invisible.

There is no "poof" of smoke. The creature is the effect, and the effect is invisible.

Yeah, that's a great way to handle a rules dispute like this. TPK your party for being creative instead of working out a way to balance this (like, perhaps, insisting that spells with a duration attached take up an extra spell level or something like that). Besides, have you considered that maybe, just maybe this isn't that unbalancing of a ruling? A second-level spell that any caster worth their salt should have readied anyway (see invisible) counters it. To boot, your party could probably kick the pants off the TPK summoner you've created, because the Wizard ought to have that spell memorized. :rolleyes:

Thanks for proving my whole point, Itara, with your comments. After explaining how it won't work like that, they crab, and whine and insist. So... yeah... give it to the NPCs, like vonklaude said, and watch it destroy the party. And its nice to know that the Wizard has See Invisible up and is directing the others in which squares to attack... guess where the next summoned Dire Bear is going??? When this is so easily shown to be overpowering even in the hands of someone not optimized for it, then the DM has all rights to shoot it down.

Good job, Light_Colonel, into investigating before allowing. You might want to check on letting up to 3rd or 4th Level spells be affected. Or attribute a spell level increase of +1 or so.
Prime361
06-05-07, 11:06 AM I just had this insidious plan to make a cleric/warmage with DMM'd persistent ring of blades up. Mwahahahahahahahaha
Radijs
06-06-07, 04:06 AM Oh, my god. That is so hideous and horrible it makes baby Cthulhu cry.
http://www.obsidianent.com/images/blog/Baby_Cthulhu_lg.jpg
You don't want baby Cthulhu to cry now do you?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Light_Colonel 06-04-07, 03:30 PM	Out of Cityscape... Basically, it makes the effects of your spell, invisible. Now in reading the spell there is no limitation on this, nor a time limit as far as I could tell. It also has a staggering +0 LVL mod. These question I am about to ask is simply this... Wouldn't using this feat allow you to summon Invisible whatevers via the various Summon Monster/Undead/Nature's Ally spells? I read and re-read the feat, hoping to find something that would prevent this from working. But I cannot find anything that would stop it from working just like that. Please tell me I am wrong.
lint trap 06-04-07, 03:44 PM	You are wrong. You're welcome. But seriously, if you're worried, just houserule that Invisible Spell can't be applied to any spell that has "SR: No" in the spell description.
Kragg Bonemeal 06-04-07, 03:45 PM	You are wrong. The effect is invisible, but the Summoned Creature, that acts/looks like any other creature of its type is... well... whatever that looks like. Unless you summon an Invisible Stalker, most creatures have a visible property. This is so you can have a Fireball that cooks a bunch of people, but nobody sees the flash of fire... Lightning Bolts that just make people along a line jerk and spasm when you point your finger at them. You also get Spiritual Weapons and Magic Missiles that don't give away your position as they come streaking away from you. (Although you still need to Gesture and Chant for verbal/somatic.) For Summon Creature... the poof of smoke as they appear is invisible. *EDIT* If your players, in an annoying simpering voice, say "But it says the effect is invisible, and the creature is the effect", then just throw a Summoner at them, TPK, laugh, and say "Quit being such abusive morons! Now... roll up a new character."
ItaraKoturo 06-04-07, 04:42 PM	You are wrong. The effect is invisible, but the Summoned Creature, that acts/looks like any other creature of its type is... well... whatever that looks like. No, the effect is the creature (Effect: One summoned creature). The creature(s) summoned by Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally would be invisible. Unless you summon an Invisible Stalker, most creatures have a visible property. So do Fireballs, but not ones with this metamagic feat applied to them. The creatures would be invisible. For Summon Creature... the poof of smoke as they appear is invisible. There is no "poof" of smoke. The creature is the effect, and the effect is invisible. *EDIT* If your players, in an annoying simpering voice, say "But it says the effect is invisible, and the creature is the effect", then just throw a Summoner at them, TPK, laugh, and say "Quit being such abusive morons! Now... roll up a new character." Yeah, that's a great way to handle a rules dispute like this. TPK your party for being creative instead of working out a way to balance this (like, perhaps, insisting that spells with a duration attached take up an extra spell level or something like that). Besides, have you considered that maybe, just maybe this isn't that unbalancing of a ruling? A second-level spell that any caster worth their salt should have readied anyway (see invisible) counters it. To boot, your party could probably kick the pants off the TPK summoner you've created, because the Wizard ought to have that spell memorized. :rolleyes:
Ebonarc 06-04-07, 10:02 PM	I don't have Cityscape yet (Amazon.com has terrible shipping speeds, but it is on its way), but it sounds like the intent of this feat is partially to hide the caster as they snipe targets. The effect of fireball is a huge eruption of fire, but it starts out as a pea sized sphere that leaves the caster's hand and moves to the center of the spell's target. Having this feat means that a spellcaster could roast a group of enemies and the survivors wouldn't know where the fireball came from. Useful for assassinations and spywork.
Light_Colonel 06-05-07, 06:23 AM	I don't have Cityscape yet (Amazon.com has terrible shipping speeds, but it is on its way), but it sounds like the intent of this feat is partially to hide the caster as they snipe targets. The effect of fireball is a huge eruption of fire, but it starts out as a pea sized sphere that leaves the caster's hand and moves to the center of the spell's target. Having this feat means that a spellcaster could roast a group of enemies and the survivors wouldn't know where the fireball came from. Useful for assassinations and spywork. I wish that were the case. Unfortunately the description of the feat lists the fireball as being invisible at all stages, not just streaking to and from targets. Its also invisible while exploding with explodeyness.
vonklaude 06-05-07, 07:16 AM	I wish that were the case. Unfortunately the description of the feat lists the fireball as being invisible at all stages, not just streaking to and from targets. Its also invisible while exploding with explodeyness. Sounds like a crappy piece of design to me. Disallow the feat until you have trialled it by giving it to one of your NPCs. If it creams the party, assume it is over-powered ;) Seriously though, my system for introducing stuff I'm not sure of is to give it to NPCs first. Usually, but not always, to enemies of the party. I've been doing that with Spell Compendium. It means I get my money's worth from the book, and players meet things they've never heard of. If the spell/feat/whatever proves reasonably balanced in play under my control, I allow it to be learnt when a player next has an opportunity, provided there is an in-game or reasonable background justification why they might have access to it. I do sometimes allow untried things when players specifically request them, but only at my discretion.
Light_Colonel 06-05-07, 07:44 AM	As an interesting side note; I emailed CustServ just after I posted this thread. According to CustServ the intent of the feat is not to do so much as I am ascribing to it. It should only make the puff of smoke invisible when using Summon Monster. However, from a purely legal standpoint, the description of the SM spells says "Effect: Summoned Monster" not "Effect: Puff of Smoke that Summons a Monster". This may very well be the first and only feat that I outright ban as being broken on the face of it. Even if you ignore the whole invisible summmons part of the spell, it still allows abuses like: Invisible Prismatic Walls Invisible Walls of Iron Invisible Weapons of the Deity Invisible Evards Black Tentacles Invisible Blade Barrier Invisible ten million other things that should never be Invisible... And the spell modifier is +0!
Kragg Bonemeal 06-05-07, 09:43 AM	No, the effect is the creature (Effect: One summoned creature). The creature(s) summoned by Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally would be invisible. So do Fireballs, but not ones with this metamagic feat applied to them. The creatures would be invisible. There is no "poof" of smoke. The creature is the effect, and the effect is invisible. Yeah, that's a great way to handle a rules dispute like this. TPK your party for being creative instead of working out a way to balance this (like, perhaps, insisting that spells with a duration attached take up an extra spell level or something like that). Besides, have you considered that maybe, just maybe this isn't that unbalancing of a ruling? A second-level spell that any caster worth their salt should have readied anyway (see invisible) counters it. To boot, your party could probably kick the pants off the TPK summoner you've created, because the Wizard ought to have that spell memorized. :rolleyes: Thanks for proving my whole point, Itara, with your comments. After explaining how it won't work like that, they crab, and whine and insist. So... yeah... give it to the NPCs, like vonklaude said, and watch it destroy the party. And its nice to know that the Wizard has See Invisible up and is directing the others in which squares to attack... guess where the next summoned Dire Bear is going??? When this is so easily shown to be overpowering even in the hands of someone not optimized for it, then the DM has all rights to shoot it down. Good job, Light_Colonel, into investigating before allowing. You might want to check on letting up to 3rd or 4th Level spells be affected. Or attribute a spell level increase of +1 or so.
Prime361 06-05-07, 11:06 AM	I just had this insidious plan to make a cleric/warmage with DMM'd persistent ring of blades up. Mwahahahahahahahaha
Radijs 06-06-07, 04:06 AM	Oh, my god. That is so hideous and horrible it makes baby Cthulhu cry. http://www.obsidianent.com/images/blog/Baby_Cthulhu_lg.jpg You don't want baby Cthulhu to cry now do you?