Iron heart surge and Fatigue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Iron heart surge and Fatigue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Northener
09-23-07, 05:58 PM The Iron Heart Suge maneuver allows a player to end the effect of a condition affecting his character. Read this way, a character could stay awake almost all night, be fatigued the morning, remove this effect with Iron heart surge and keep going all day ? Seems a bit extreme to me...

As maneuver are supposed to be used during an encounter, I think it would be reasonnable to limit the benefit of the IHS for a limited time. So the character could effectively remove the Fatigue effect at the beginning of an encounter but be fatigued again when the encounter end.

Any comment or advice ??
calronmoonflower
09-23-07, 07:57 PM ":gah: MY EYES!!! I Iron Heart away the sun!!!" *poof* The sun ends.

You can by the definition use it on fatigue or if you are negatively effected by it, to end the effect of the sun itself!!!

It is maneuvers are not limited to one per combat, but one per encounter. Outside of an encounter by the wording of recovering maneuvers is instantaneous.
1337Ninja
09-24-07, 05:52 AM Yes, IHS is horribly worded. It makes sense for it to avoid fatigue, but only for about a minute. I'd play it like that.
heffroncm
09-24-07, 11:19 AM Um, you can't end the sun. You can remove a spell, effect, or condition that lasts 1 or more rounds and is affecting your character. All of these are clearly defined: a spell is just that, an effect is a non-spell ability (for example, removing Poison before the second saving throw), and a condition refers to the list of conditions in the PHB.

Lasting 1 or more rounds means the duration needs to be expressed in rounds. It does not mean a duration that ends on condition (for example, fatigue from lack of proper sleep ends when you do get proper sleep).

Affecting your character means just that, you can't remove the Hold Person on the Cleric because the spell itself is not affecting you, even though it is preventing the Cleric from healing you.

At most, looking at the sun will Dazzle you, which is a condition that you would end. The sun would still be there, your eyes wouldn't hurt, and you would be able to see clearly.

You cannot remove the fatigue from lack of proper sleep, as it does not have a finite duration. The duration is not listed in rounds, it is listed in the conditional of "when you do sleep."

Most problems with Iron Heart Surge come from people tossing their D&D dictionaries out the window and interpreting the ability wildly based on the English definitions of Effect and Condition. The rest come from using it to cause superhuman effects when a much simpler answer applies. A player of mine once tried to use Iron Heart Surge to remove the Checked condition, which was being applied by the door he was pressed up against. He thought it would destroy the door. In reality, he stepped back a foot. No longer checked.

Yes, you can do powerful things with it, and it's probably the most versatile 3rd level spell in the game, but in most situations it is not nearly as powerful as people try to make it out to be.
calronmoonflower
09-24-07, 02:01 PM Um, you can't end the sun.

Logically no, but by the wording of Iron Heart Surge you can because the sun is an effect.
heffroncm
09-24-07, 03:10 PM Logically no, but by the wording of Iron Heart Surge you can because the sun is an effect.

Did you even read my post? The sun is not an effect. An effect an ability used. Effect is used so they don't have to spell out that it can end a Spell Like Ability, Supernatural Ability, Extraordinary Ability, Monster Ability, or Class Ability. It turns 12 words into 1, great sense for a publisher, and is used the same way in other places. As long as we're at it, the sun also can't be removed with Iron Heart Surge because it does not have a duration of 1 or more rounds. It is permanent.

The sun can cause conditions (dazzled or blind for staring into it.). Dazzled would have a set duration in rounds, and therefor be removable with Iron Heart Surge. If you stare at the sun long enough to go blind, it's permanent, there is no fixed duration in rounds, it can't be removed with Iron Heart Surge.

You're doing exactly what I said was the problem in my post. You're using the English definitions of effect, instead of the D&D definition of effect.
Northener
09-24-07, 07:28 PM I totally agree with you heffroncm, IHS can only ends a condition affecting the character himself. I understand your point about duration (1 on more round) but someone could argue that the fatigue condition last for an infinite number of rounds...so, more than one ;)

But, as I said, I totally agree with you and I don't think a character can use IHS to eliminate the need to sleep. I will probably let my player use IHS to end the fatigue condition during an encounter but the condition will come back after that encounter. And it would cost him a maneuver each combat...so, in the end, I think the player will like better to have the opportunity to use IHS again something more lethal than to try to stay awake all night long.

Thanks for your input !
heffroncm
09-24-07, 07:49 PM Sorry, I should have been clearer. Blindness in the case of burning out your eyes staring at the sun is an injury. You can't remove injuries with Iron Heart Surge. Ability damage, HP damage, etc.

Conditions with a "Permanent" duration can be removed. Conditions with a situational duration, like the afformentioned fatigued from not sleeping which has not set duration because you can end it at any time by resting for 8 hours, cannot.
AlterFrom
09-24-07, 10:08 PM Where is your definition of "effect" coming from? I can find "spell" and "condition" easy enough, but perhaps because I'm using just the SRD I can't find "effect" anywhere.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Northener 09-23-07, 05:58 PM	The Iron Heart Suge maneuver allows a player to end the effect of a condition affecting his character. Read this way, a character could stay awake almost all night, be fatigued the morning, remove this effect with Iron heart surge and keep going all day ? Seems a bit extreme to me... As maneuver are supposed to be used during an encounter, I think it would be reasonnable to limit the benefit of the IHS for a limited time. So the character could effectively remove the Fatigue effect at the beginning of an encounter but be fatigued again when the encounter end. Any comment or advice ??
calronmoonflower 09-23-07, 07:57 PM	":gah: MY EYES!!! I Iron Heart away the sun!!!" poof The sun ends. You can by the definition use it on fatigue or if you are negatively effected by it, to end the effect of the sun itself!!! It is maneuvers are not limited to one per combat, but one per encounter. Outside of an encounter by the wording of recovering maneuvers is instantaneous.
1337Ninja 09-24-07, 05:52 AM	Yes, IHS is horribly worded. It makes sense for it to avoid fatigue, but only for about a minute. I'd play it like that.
heffroncm 09-24-07, 11:19 AM	Um, you can't end the sun. You can remove a spell, effect, or condition that lasts 1 or more rounds and is affecting your character. All of these are clearly defined: a spell is just that, an effect is a non-spell ability (for example, removing Poison before the second saving throw), and a condition refers to the list of conditions in the PHB. Lasting 1 or more rounds means the duration needs to be expressed in rounds. It does not mean a duration that ends on condition (for example, fatigue from lack of proper sleep ends when you do get proper sleep). Affecting your character means just that, you can't remove the Hold Person on the Cleric because the spell itself is not affecting you, even though it is preventing the Cleric from healing you. At most, looking at the sun will Dazzle you, which is a condition that you would end. The sun would still be there, your eyes wouldn't hurt, and you would be able to see clearly. You cannot remove the fatigue from lack of proper sleep, as it does not have a finite duration. The duration is not listed in rounds, it is listed in the conditional of "when you do sleep." Most problems with Iron Heart Surge come from people tossing their D&D dictionaries out the window and interpreting the ability wildly based on the English definitions of Effect and Condition. The rest come from using it to cause superhuman effects when a much simpler answer applies. A player of mine once tried to use Iron Heart Surge to remove the Checked condition, which was being applied by the door he was pressed up against. He thought it would destroy the door. In reality, he stepped back a foot. No longer checked. Yes, you can do powerful things with it, and it's probably the most versatile 3rd level spell in the game, but in most situations it is not nearly as powerful as people try to make it out to be.
calronmoonflower 09-24-07, 02:01 PM	Um, you can't end the sun. Logically no, but by the wording of Iron Heart Surge you can because the sun is an effect.
heffroncm 09-24-07, 03:10 PM	Logically no, but by the wording of Iron Heart Surge you can because the sun is an effect. Did you even read my post? The sun is not an effect. An effect an ability used. Effect is used so they don't have to spell out that it can end a Spell Like Ability, Supernatural Ability, Extraordinary Ability, Monster Ability, or Class Ability. It turns 12 words into 1, great sense for a publisher, and is used the same way in other places. As long as we're at it, the sun also can't be removed with Iron Heart Surge because it does not have a duration of 1 or more rounds. It is permanent. The sun can cause conditions (dazzled or blind for staring into it.). Dazzled would have a set duration in rounds, and therefor be removable with Iron Heart Surge. If you stare at the sun long enough to go blind, it's permanent, there is no fixed duration in rounds, it can't be removed with Iron Heart Surge. You're doing exactly what I said was the problem in my post. You're using the English definitions of effect, instead of the D&D definition of effect.
Northener 09-24-07, 07:28 PM	I totally agree with you heffroncm, IHS can only ends a condition affecting the character himself. I understand your point about duration (1 on more round) but someone could argue that the fatigue condition last for an infinite number of rounds...so, more than one ;) But, as I said, I totally agree with you and I don't think a character can use IHS to eliminate the need to sleep. I will probably let my player use IHS to end the fatigue condition during an encounter but the condition will come back after that encounter. And it would cost him a maneuver each combat...so, in the end, I think the player will like better to have the opportunity to use IHS again something more lethal than to try to stay awake all night long. Thanks for your input !
heffroncm 09-24-07, 07:49 PM	Sorry, I should have been clearer. Blindness in the case of burning out your eyes staring at the sun is an injury. You can't remove injuries with Iron Heart Surge. Ability damage, HP damage, etc. Conditions with a "Permanent" duration can be removed. Conditions with a situational duration, like the afformentioned fatigued from not sleeping which has not set duration because you can end it at any time by resting for 8 hours, cannot.
AlterFrom 09-24-07, 10:08 PM	Where is your definition of "effect" coming from? I can find "spell" and "condition" easy enough, but perhaps because I'm using just the SRD I can't find "effect" anywhere.