Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Angus Cotton 08-26-07, 07:42 PM	A holy cleric does battle with a minion of a BBEG. The minion escapes and the BBEG, realizing that the cleric might use scrying to locate the minion, decides to Sequester his minion for a while in order for the BBEG to regroup. A short time thereafter, the holy cleric does decide to look for the minion. The cleric cast Discern Location on the minion. What does the cleric learn from the spell?
Sildatorak 08-26-07, 07:46 PM	Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location.Discern location wins because it specifically bypasses any efforts except mind blank or divine intervention. Sequester is just setting a general case that it blocks divinations.
heffroncm 08-26-07, 08:11 PM	Yeah, Discern Location wins this round.
Angus Cotton 08-26-07, 10:56 PM	Discern location wins because it specifically bypasses any efforts except mind blank or divine intervention. Sequester is just setting a general case that it blocks divinations. For which, Discern Location is a divination. So, if I am to read into this, you are saying that "Sequester sets a general case to block divinations", but implies that it does not block all divinations? What about this from the SRD under Sequester: "this spell not only prevents divination spells from working to detect or locate the creature or object affected by sequester..."?
Sildatorak 08-26-07, 11:29 PM	So, if I am to read into this, you are saying that "Sequester sets a general case to block divinations", but implies that it does not block all divinations? Exactly. Rather than having each spell list every other spell that bypasses it, they just set the general rule much of the time. If something sets a more specific rule, it trumps it. So sequester says "divinations don't work," to which discern location replies "mind blank is the only mortal magic that will stop me."
Matthew77 08-27-07, 09:36 AM	My practical answer is: The DM decides which result would make the game more fun. Based on rules-language however, I have a couple points to consider. 1) Discern location is higher level spell. Not always applicable, but has some minor weight. 2) Discern location says this in the description: "Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location." Sequester could be considered a "normal means of protection". 3) Discern location has some restrictions on the target.. you must have seen the creature or have an item that belonged to it. Since it's not just "anything you want anywhere" that makes me inclined to make it more powerful. Also, you might want to rule as a compromise that if you have an item that belonged to the creature, you can overcome the Sequester, but if you don't, and are just going by having seen the creature, the Sequester wins. 4) Discern location just reveals the name of a place. Personally, I wouldn't allow someone to teleport there based on just a name, so it would take some more research to go from a name to an actual physical location, which sounds like it would add to the fun and tension of the game. So, as a thought experiment, I think both sides could be argued. As a practical question, I would let the Discern Location overcome the Sequester, but I would make it a little more involved and interesting than just "You cast the spell, you know where he is."
Sildatorak 08-27-07, 01:43 PM	I would make it a little more involved and interesting than just "You cast the spell, you know where he is."Definitely. You're only going to get back the location name, like you said. Definitely not enough for a scryaport fragging.
goawayugh 08-28-07, 09:37 AM	One more vote for discern location.
heffroncm 08-28-07, 11:59 AM	Definitely. You're only going to get back the location name, like you said. Definitely not enough for a scryaport fragging. In fact, from what I can find, there is no way to scy a location. Unless you happen to have visited the city, or know someone you can scry in that place, you'll have to use conventional travel to get to the minion. With a simple protection against Discernment (Contingency: When someone Discerns this minion, BBEG recieves a Sending of "They found him!."), the minion will be long gone before the cleric arrives.
eamon 08-30-07, 09:57 AM	The way I read it, Discern Location is more precise than merely a place name. It says you learn a whole series of location names which essentially are a sort of address. It says you learn the exact location, not the general whereabouts. It's a very high level divination spell - I'm thinking of a description like "Cupboard under the stairs, Privet..." etc, and if they really want to push as exact as they want it. Consider also, that Discern Location even reveals an imprisoned (9th level spell!) creature. Whether that's enough to teleport to: well, the way I read Greater Teleport, it probably should be (as it specifically states that you don't need to have seen the target location, and further states that a precise description - say, exactly the kind of exact location provided by Discern Location - is required) Of course, there are spell's the BBEG could use, and perhaps more permanent enchantments can be considered too... such as Anticipate Teleportation, or Dimensional Lock. Or maybe he's in one of those "Magnificent Mansions". Or maybe he didn't use Sequester, but instead, Mind Blank? I'm sure the spell compendium has a bunch of interesting options ;-). Ideally, you'ld find some way of succeeding that doesn't require you to say "just because", since that's not fun. And who say's he sequestered the minion anywhere obvious? Maybe he's met the minion outside of his lair, sequestered him there, and then returned? In which case you have a perfectly reasonable solution which only reveals the rough location of the lair, while keeping your player's happy since their abilities worked exactly as hoped.
heffroncm 08-30-07, 11:39 AM	Discern Location doesn't give you an accurate description of the location, just the location itself. You'd get something like, "The Rotten Apple Inn, Water St, Port District, City of Greyhawk, Kingdom of Greyhawk, Prime Material Plane." With a sufficiently accurate map of the area, you could indeed Greater Teleport there. That still gives plenty of time for a simple Contingency to provide all the neccessary protection against Discernment.
eamon 08-31-07, 10:19 AM	Discern Location doesn't give you an accurate description of the location, just the location itself. You'd get something like, "The Rotten Apple Inn, Water St, Port District, City of Greyhawk, Kingdom of Greyhawk, Prime Material Plane." With a sufficiently accurate map of the area, you could indeed Greater Teleport there. That still gives plenty of time for a simple Contingency to provide all the neccessary protection against Discernment. Well, I kinda like to think of such an address as a minimal result... I mean, the spell says you learn that kind of interpretation explicitly, but it also says you learn the "exact location". Apparently it's exact enough for things like freedom to work, and I like the idea of an arbitrarily exact location - as in it'll divulge the "exact location", where exact is as exact as the caster can grasp. It doesn't reveal a description, no, so teleporting based on this information won't work.