is a javelin ammunition? [Archive] - Wizards Community

is a javelin ammunition? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Retinal Haze
04-19-07, 09:00 PM The title says it all. A player got his hands on a set of masterwork javelins, and a debate came up about them. I'm 50/50 on the issue. Its listed under ranged weapons, but it doesnt have an ammuniton price (price per 10). It seems to me it would be the same as a throwing axe or a dagger.

What do you guys say? can my player throw his masterwork/magical javelin and then go pull it out of his foe?
Evil DM Mk3
04-19-07, 09:01 PM It is a weapon. Not ammo. That would get very expencive FAST.
Mock26
04-19-07, 09:22 PM According to the SRD there is a 50% chance of ammunition being destroyed or lost after it is firing. Now, this makes sense to me for arrows and bolts, and sling stones or bullets, because arrows and bolts are somewhat fragile and stones and bullets are small. The SRD also says that shurikens are subject to the 50% destroyed/lost rule when thrown! I find that to be stretching it a bit. My house rule is 25% chance of losing a shuriken, but that depends on the situation (such as a higher chance out in the woods, but an even smaller chance inside a room). As for spears and javelins and hand axes and such, I have a base 5% chance of them breaking. They are much sturdier than arrows and bolts and a lot larger than stones and bullets, but they still have wooden parts that can break. If they are masterwork or magical items I have the chance moved down to 2%. I find that this works quite well.
tos_shai_hulud
04-19-07, 09:34 PM I am looking in the player's handbook and the SRD, but I am not seeing Javelins given any pricing as ammunition. They are priced individually only, and weigh 2 lbs each. Which source are you looking at where they are priced as ammunition?

Edit: Under Magic Items in the DMG, a masterwork Javelin is listed at 301gp (not 301 gp/10 javelins)
Retinal Haze
04-20-07, 12:38 AM I am looking in the player's handbook and the SRD, but I am not seeing Javelins given any pricing as ammunition. They are priced individually only, and weigh 2 lbs each. Which source are you looking at where they are priced as ammunition?

Edit: Under Magic Items in the DMG, a masterwork Javelin is listed at 301gp (not 301 gp/10 javelins)

Yeah i was saying that they do not have an ammunition price so should be treated as a weapon. the srd says you can use one as a weapon at a -4. So i guess question asnwered guys. Thanks
tos_shai_hulud
04-20-07, 12:47 AM Yeah i was saying that they do not have an ammunition price so should be treated as a weapon. the srd says you can use one as a weapon at a -4. So i guess question asnwered guys. Thanks

It says you can use one as a melee weapon at a -4. They can be used as a ranged weapon at no penalty. Looking at the pricing for masterwork in the DMG, they are a ranged weapon, not ammunition. They do not suffer from the same effects as ammunition. Consider them to be made from metal. They don't break just from being thrown.
Millennium
04-20-07, 09:34 AM Aside from size, the big difference between a javelin and an arrow is that an arrow is used with the aid of another weapon (a bow), while a javelin is used directly by the wielder. This is the difference between what is ammunition and what is not. Shuriken aren't ammunition either, even though they're ranged.

Now, for the big question: what about someone who uses javelins with the aid of an atlatl?
CharlieRock
04-20-07, 09:50 AM Well, if javelins aren't ammunition, then they are retrievable.

Until you stick them into a dragon that takes off thruogh the sky in an airborne retreat. :D
Marcus Majarra
04-20-07, 01:02 PM Ammunition are special weapons whose only purpose is to be used with a projectile weapon, unless otherwise stated. If it's a ranged weapon and it's not a projectile weapon, you're dealing with a thrown weapon, which doesn't count as ammunition unless otherwise stated (as is the case with shuriken).
Tony Vargas
04-20-07, 01:03 PM The title says it all. It seems to me it would be the same as a throwing axe or a dagger. Javelins are technically throwing weapons, and are enchanted just like melee weapons that can be thrown - even though they are not melee weapons (they take the -4 penalty if used in melee, just like arrows).

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with counting javelins as ammunition - or even with counting some javelins as throwable melee weapons and others as ammunition. For instance, you could introduce a javelin similar to the historical roman pilum, which was designed to bend or break on impact, so that it couldn't be recovered and easily used by the enemy. A magical version would just be automatically destroyed when it hit.

When it comes to magical weapons, it's really a matter of cost. Ammunition costs much less and is single-use. That's reasonably balanced regardless of the exact form of the weapon in question.

What do you guys say? can my player throw his masterwork/magical javelin and then go pull it out of his foe?With a masterwork weapon, he could do so whether it was ammunition or thrown weapon - the ammunition just carries a 50% chance of being unuseable or unretrievable - while magical ammunition is simply destroyed when it hits.
nlentz88
04-20-07, 01:41 PM With a masterwork weapon, he could do so whether it was ammunition or thrown weapon - the ammunition just carries a 50% chance of being unuseable or unretrievable - while magical ammunition is simply destroyed when it hits.

I'm pretty sure that magical ammunition still gets a 50% chance of being recoverable.
IllyannaFarseer
04-20-07, 02:27 PM well seeing as the atlatl and javelins are two different things you need to treat them differently.

The atlatl was created to use ammunition, you didn't hand throw the dart, you put it in the throwing arm and WHAMMO!

In fact the atlatl had more force, about the same range and greater accuracy than the Bow (of the era..which would be a short bow), and didn't suffer from getting wet.

So a atlatl would have ammunition (typically 5-10 darts). darts were pretty tough though, so its up to you if you use the 50/50 ammo rule.

Only problem with the atlatl and why they fell out of use is how hard they were to learn to use. A bow is a LOT easier...a LOT...

:D
Retinal Haze
04-20-07, 05:04 PM So does this mean that 1 masterwork javelin is worth 3001 gp? considering you can reuse it.
Evil DM Mk3
04-20-07, 05:49 PM One masterwork javelin is worth 301gp BECASUE IT IS NOT AMMO. It is a weapon, like a throwing axe.
Branto
04-20-07, 06:18 PM Realistically... well, it'd depend on what the javelin is made of. A metal javelin shouldn't break unless you throw it into something seriously nasty (like, say.. a blade barrier or prismatic wall or something?). Same goes for magic javelins, even as low as +1...

But a plain, nonmagical wooden javelin? Well, it won't break AS easily as an arrow, and you certainly won't lose it unless you throw it off a cliff... or into a river... or the torso of someone who then falls off a cliff or into a river. However, such a plain wooden stick, however sharp, COULD still break. Something around 10 or 25% chance.

Mock26, you seem to underestimate the fact that the humble shuriken was designed specifically to be hard to see. They're tiny, flat, and usually painted dull, non-shiney black to make them harder to see. So while they won't usually break, you should be lucky if you EVEN can find where half of the ones you threw wound up after a long, long battle.

And really, are you going to devote hours of in-game time combing through every bush and checking under every corpse just to find a handful of easily-replaced, low-damage throwing weapons?
Evil DM Mk3
04-21-07, 04:54 AM If you treat javelins as ammo, every one that hits is destroyed, at 2lb each that is a lot you need to carry on extended journeys, and shuriken are probably quite easy to bend or warp to teh poitn where they are of no use.
WolfHati
04-22-07, 09:27 PM I'm still kind of curious as to how to explain, as a DM, an adamantium shuriken being destroyed by getting lodged in a goblin's face.
If I can't come up with a good explanation of why a character can't do something that seems reasonable, besides, ehhh... the rules said it somewhere, then I let them do it.

That's not to say I let people do ridiculous or overpowered things, I'm a physicist and good enough at rules lawyery to stop that, but some things are just too nonsensical to come up with even a half-assed explanation for.
Evil DM Mk3
04-23-07, 03:03 PM It may be hard but it is thin and so is easily warped by the impact...

:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Retinal Haze 04-19-07, 09:00 PM	The title says it all. A player got his hands on a set of masterwork javelins, and a debate came up about them. I'm 50/50 on the issue. Its listed under ranged weapons, but it doesnt have an ammuniton price (price per 10). It seems to me it would be the same as a throwing axe or a dagger. What do you guys say? can my player throw his masterwork/magical javelin and then go pull it out of his foe?
Evil DM Mk3 04-19-07, 09:01 PM	It is a weapon. Not ammo. That would get very expencive FAST.
Mock26 04-19-07, 09:22 PM	According to the SRD there is a 50% chance of ammunition being destroyed or lost after it is firing. Now, this makes sense to me for arrows and bolts, and sling stones or bullets, because arrows and bolts are somewhat fragile and stones and bullets are small. The SRD also says that shurikens are subject to the 50% destroyed/lost rule when thrown! I find that to be stretching it a bit. My house rule is 25% chance of losing a shuriken, but that depends on the situation (such as a higher chance out in the woods, but an even smaller chance inside a room). As for spears and javelins and hand axes and such, I have a base 5% chance of them breaking. They are much sturdier than arrows and bolts and a lot larger than stones and bullets, but they still have wooden parts that can break. If they are masterwork or magical items I have the chance moved down to 2%. I find that this works quite well.
tos_shai_hulud 04-19-07, 09:34 PM	I am looking in the player's handbook and the SRD, but I am not seeing Javelins given any pricing as ammunition. They are priced individually only, and weigh 2 lbs each. Which source are you looking at where they are priced as ammunition? Edit: Under Magic Items in the DMG, a masterwork Javelin is listed at 301gp (not 301 gp/10 javelins)
Retinal Haze 04-20-07, 12:38 AM	I am looking in the player's handbook and the SRD, but I am not seeing Javelins given any pricing as ammunition. They are priced individually only, and weigh 2 lbs each. Which source are you looking at where they are priced as ammunition? Edit: Under Magic Items in the DMG, a masterwork Javelin is listed at 301gp (not 301 gp/10 javelins) Yeah i was saying that they do not have an ammunition price so should be treated as a weapon. the srd says you can use one as a weapon at a -4. So i guess question asnwered guys. Thanks
tos_shai_hulud 04-20-07, 12:47 AM	Yeah i was saying that they do not have an ammunition price so should be treated as a weapon. the srd says you can use one as a weapon at a -4. So i guess question asnwered guys. Thanks It says you can use one as a melee weapon at a -4. They can be used as a ranged weapon at no penalty. Looking at the pricing for masterwork in the DMG, they are a ranged weapon, not ammunition. They do not suffer from the same effects as ammunition. Consider them to be made from metal. They don't break just from being thrown.
Millennium 04-20-07, 09:34 AM	Aside from size, the big difference between a javelin and an arrow is that an arrow is used with the aid of another weapon (a bow), while a javelin is used directly by the wielder. This is the difference between what is ammunition and what is not. Shuriken aren't ammunition either, even though they're ranged. Now, for the big question: what about someone who uses javelins with the aid of an atlatl?
CharlieRock 04-20-07, 09:50 AM	Well, if javelins aren't ammunition, then they are retrievable. Until you stick them into a dragon that takes off thruogh the sky in an airborne retreat. :D
Marcus Majarra 04-20-07, 01:02 PM	Ammunition are special weapons whose only purpose is to be used with a projectile weapon, unless otherwise stated. If it's a ranged weapon and it's not a projectile weapon, you're dealing with a thrown weapon, which doesn't count as ammunition unless otherwise stated (as is the case with shuriken).
Tony Vargas 04-20-07, 01:03 PM	The title says it all. It seems to me it would be the same as a throwing axe or a dagger. Javelins are technically throwing weapons, and are enchanted just like melee weapons that can be thrown - even though they are not melee weapons (they take the -4 penalty if used in melee, just like arrows). IMHO, there is nothing wrong with counting javelins as ammunition - or even with counting some javelins as throwable melee weapons and others as ammunition. For instance, you could introduce a javelin similar to the historical roman pilum, which was designed to bend or break on impact, so that it couldn't be recovered and easily used by the enemy. A magical version would just be automatically destroyed when it hit. When it comes to magical weapons, it's really a matter of cost. Ammunition costs much less and is single-use. That's reasonably balanced regardless of the exact form of the weapon in question. What do you guys say? can my player throw his masterwork/magical javelin and then go pull it out of his foe?With a masterwork weapon, he could do so whether it was ammunition or thrown weapon - the ammunition just carries a 50% chance of being unuseable or unretrievable - while magical ammunition is simply destroyed when it hits.
nlentz88 04-20-07, 01:41 PM	With a masterwork weapon, he could do so whether it was ammunition or thrown weapon - the ammunition just carries a 50% chance of being unuseable or unretrievable - while magical ammunition is simply destroyed when it hits. I'm pretty sure that magical ammunition still gets a 50% chance of being recoverable.
IllyannaFarseer 04-20-07, 02:27 PM	well seeing as the atlatl and javelins are two different things you need to treat them differently. The atlatl was created to use ammunition, you didn't hand throw the dart, you put it in the throwing arm and WHAMMO! In fact the atlatl had more force, about the same range and greater accuracy than the Bow (of the era..which would be a short bow), and didn't suffer from getting wet. So a atlatl would have ammunition (typically 5-10 darts). darts were pretty tough though, so its up to you if you use the 50/50 ammo rule. Only problem with the atlatl and why they fell out of use is how hard they were to learn to use. A bow is a LOT easier...a LOT... :D
Retinal Haze 04-20-07, 05:04 PM	So does this mean that 1 masterwork javelin is worth 3001 gp? considering you can reuse it.
Evil DM Mk3 04-20-07, 05:49 PM	One masterwork javelin is worth 301gp BECASUE IT IS NOT AMMO. It is a weapon, like a throwing axe.
Branto 04-20-07, 06:18 PM	Realistically... well, it'd depend on what the javelin is made of. A metal javelin shouldn't break unless you throw it into something seriously nasty (like, say.. a blade barrier or prismatic wall or something?). Same goes for magic javelins, even as low as +1... But a plain, nonmagical wooden javelin? Well, it won't break AS easily as an arrow, and you certainly won't lose it unless you throw it off a cliff... or into a river... or the torso of someone who then falls off a cliff or into a river. However, such a plain wooden stick, however sharp, COULD still break. Something around 10 or 25% chance. Mock26, you seem to underestimate the fact that the humble shuriken was designed specifically to be hard to see. They're tiny, flat, and usually painted dull, non-shiney black to make them harder to see. So while they won't usually break, you should be lucky if you EVEN can find where half of the ones you threw wound up after a long, long battle. And really, are you going to devote hours of in-game time combing through every bush and checking under every corpse just to find a handful of easily-replaced, low-damage throwing weapons?
Evil DM Mk3 04-21-07, 04:54 AM	If you treat javelins as ammo, every one that hits is destroyed, at 2lb each that is a lot you need to carry on extended journeys, and shuriken are probably quite easy to bend or warp to teh poitn where they are of no use.
WolfHati 04-22-07, 09:27 PM	I'm still kind of curious as to how to explain, as a DM, an adamantium shuriken being destroyed by getting lodged in a goblin's face. If I can't come up with a good explanation of why a character can't do something that seems reasonable, besides, ehhh... the rules said it somewhere, then I let them do it. That's not to say I let people do ridiculous or overpowered things, I'm a physicist and good enough at rules lawyery to stop that, but some things are just too nonsensical to come up with even a half-assed explanation for.
Evil DM Mk3 04-23-07, 03:03 PM	It may be hard but it is thin and so is easily warped by the impact... :D