Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Radijs 05-07-07, 07:34 AM	I think I am doing this right but to be on the safe side I thought I'd check with you guys. We've got our leading object: Generic Fighter A who has a mount, a lance, the power attack feat and the spirited charge feat. So he gets on his mount sees his target, Puny Puny the Kobold and fancies himself a kobold-kebab. So he charges in holding his lance firmly in both hands and power attacks the kobold exchanging 1 point of BAB for the bonus damage. He is holding his weapon in 2 hands. That means he gets double damage(2 points). He's also charging with a lance doubling his damage again(3 points) and he is doing it with spirited charge doubling his damage for the 3rd time (4 points) So when GFA power attacks in this situation he gets +4 on damage for every point of power attack he trades in correct?
tos_shai_hulud 05-07-07, 08:17 AM	If you are allowing a character to wield a lance two-handed while mounted, then yes. The lance specifically says that it is made to be wielded one handed while mounted. I am not certain how feasible it is to wield it two-handed.
Radijs 05-07-07, 08:32 AM	The SRD says it a bit diffrently. Behold! Lance A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. It has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand. Can, but not must apparently.
Vultawk 05-07-07, 08:35 AM	The SRD says it a bit diffrently. Behold! Can, but not must apparently. I'd at least make him make a Ride check to see if he can stay on the horse. The impact of the hit, coupled with the fact that he's not holding on, might just dismount him. Of course, it's after the attack, so the player gets his/her glory, but also gets a bit of a drawback for it. All in all, I think it makes for an exciting scene.
Radijs 05-07-07, 08:42 AM	You mean the "guide with knees" check described as in the ride (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm) skill?
tos_shai_hulud 05-07-07, 08:46 AM	My concern is more that when you hold a lance one-handed while mounted, you have control over where it will hit. When you hold a lance with two hands while mounted, I cannot picture much control. I mean, your second hand will be at an odd angle from the first, causing the lance to cross the mount, the mount's head will be in the way, keeping the lance to that side. It just seems like it would be difficult (or maybe even impossible) to wield a lance two handed. Having never tried personally, if it can be done, then ignore this rant.
starfire311 05-07-07, 08:48 AM	I think I am doing this right but to be on the safe side I thought I'd check with you guys. We've got our leading object: Generic Fighter A who has a mount, a lance, the power attack feat and the spirited charge feat. So he gets on his mount sees his target, Puny Puny the Kobold and fancies himself a kobold-kebab. So he charges in holding his lance firmly in both hands and power attacks the kobold exchanging 1 point of BAB for the bonus damage. He is holding his weapon in 2 hands. That means he gets double damage(2 points). He's also charging with a lance doubling his damage again(3 points) and he is doing it with spirited charge doubling his damage for the 3rd time (4 points) So when GFA power attacks in this situation he gets +4 on damage for every point of power attack he trades in correct? this AFAIK is not correct. when charging on a lance you do double damage correct. So lets jsut say he power attacks for -1 BAB and has a strength of 14(+2) and is wielding the lance 2 handed. Normally he deals 1D8+3(str)+2(PA) when charging he deals double damage 2D8+6(str)+4(PA) w/spirited charge he deals triple damage 3D8+9(str)+6(PA) and if he crits w/sprited cahrage he deals quadruple damage 4D8+12(str)+8(PA)
Radijs 05-07-07, 08:50 AM	+6? Are you sure? Usually multipliers don't stack that way. 2X+2X= 3X in most DND cases.
starfire311 05-07-07, 09:02 AM	+6? Are you sure? Usually multipliers don't stack that way. 2X+2X= 3X in most DND cases. yes I am positive, if you have an attack that deals 1D8+5 damage and then you double it, it now does 2D8+10. charging does not double the power attack, it is doubling the final damage. Same thing if you crit with a weapon that you PA with, you still deal double damage... if you have a great sword that deals 2D6+3(str)+2(PA) crit, the end result will be 4D6+10 If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. I would also like to point out that there is no real doubling taking place, the special is just telling you that you add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls, it doesn't say add double the bonus from one handed. It is just using the word twice to indicate how much, not to indicate any kind of doubling.
meabolex 05-07-07, 10:48 AM	The lance is a two-handed weapon. It gets two points of damage per point of BAB spent on Power Attack. It has the special property that it can be wielded in one hand - like jousting knights. However, that does not make it a one-handed weapon. It's a two-handed weapon that (in a specific situation) is held in one hand. It's supposed to be a pretty good weapon to use mounted because old medieval knight imagery is a D&D staple. If they didn't make the weapon effective, no one would use the lance.
Radijs 05-07-07, 11:51 AM	The real effectiveness of the weapon comes into being when you combine it with the feat "power lunge" which allows you to add twice your strength modifier to damage. Sure you draw an attack of oppertunity. But you've got reach so no medium or small enemy will threaten you anway.
crashlogic 05-07-07, 02:29 PM	You are confusing doubling the power attack extra damage with the doubling of regular damage. One question raised by your situation is uncertain: whether a lance wieled in one hand form the back of a horse still counts as a two handed weapon. I am inclined to say no, because you also get extra damage from a one handed weapon wielded in two hands, so the number of hands on the weapon actually counts. However, it seems you can, under the rules, wield a lance in two hands from a horse, so lets assume taht is what he is doing. You have power attack and are exchanging one point for two because the weapon is in both hands. thus you would add +2 in this case. You are also using a two handed weapon so you add 1.5 times your strength bonus, so (with an 18 strenth) you add +6 to the attack. So now your basic lance damage is 1d8+8. You are charging with a lance, that does double damage, so on a charge you roll 1d8 +8 two times. Spirited charge means you do triple damage with a lance on a charge and not double thus you roll 1 D8 + 8 3 times. (or more simply 3d8+24). Using a two handed weapon with the power attack feat does not double all damage, just the extra damage. Now if you hit with a critical, you do times three damage. The creates and interesting question because you have already tripled your damage from charging with a lance. Critical hits triple normal damage, however you do not get to add 3d8+24 three more times. rather you simply add 1d8 + 6 two more times (because of the multiuplying rules, another multiplier adds one less than its value), and then add +2 to your damage, since the extra damage from power attack does not multiply with the critical. Thus, a mounted charger with a lance and a critical hit does 5d8+36+2 damage.
Arandmoor 05-07-07, 03:03 PM	and then add +2 to your damage, since the extra damage from power attack does not multiply with the critical. Thus, a mounted charger with a lance and a critical hit does 5d8+36+2 damage. Sorry, but you're wrong. Crits and multiplicative bonuses from charging do indeed affect PA bonuses. ...just like they affect bonuses from magical lances, and strength bonuses, and the bonus from weapon specialization. A foe who knows how to fight while mounted is incredibly dangerous, but look at what he has to give up in order to do it. 3 Feat slots for Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, and Spirited Charge Access to martial weapons (restricting your class or making you spend more feats) You need to have a horse ($) trained for combat ($$$) and keep it alive (it's a chore sometimes...damn things take more damage than their riders usually) Invest in the ride skill (because fighters have sooooo many skill points to work with) Buy a lance and keep it in one piece (they tend to shatter) Get the charge in combat (not always as easy as it sounds) Avoid cramped conditions (like dungeons for example) or any place that can prevent you from riding around on a horse. and finally... Hit your target (much harder than it sounds...damn dice) That's a lot of requirements and If's. If he satisfies all that he had better get something to show for it. Besides that, as a DM, you can abuse the mounted combat rules too. I still have the stats for an Ogre Ranger riding a Dire Bear collecting dust somewhere. He may not move as fast a a human on a horse...but once he gets going you can't stop him... ...and god forbid you tick his mount off...
Radijs 05-07-07, 05:29 PM	Ok so I multiply the PA bonus like it was clean damage (like I get from my STR bonus) Lets put it in relation to this boss I thought up. We'll assume that he uses his +2 lance in both hands at all times. STR 22 (+6 bonus) So a normal attack will yield 1d8+11 A mounted spirited charge will triplicate this damage to 3d8+33 A critical on this charge will yield 5d8+55 damage (multiplication stacking) A normal power attack exchanging +5 attack bonus for 10 damage yields 1d8+21. And a spirited charge with the same power attack will yield that damage, tripled to a total of 3d8+63 And adding a critical to that will get me a whopping 5d8+105 damage? So trading in power attack on a mounted spirited charge yields 6 damage on every 1 point of power attack.
crashlogic 05-07-07, 05:34 PM	Um here is what the SRD days: "Critical Hits When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." So extra damage, above and beyond the usual bonuses is not doubled. This extra damage includes sneak attack dice and their ilk, as well as power attack damage, or damage from holy effects. Power attack is not a usual bonus. An a magical lance that did +1d6 extra damage from being holy would not double the holy effect, just the lance effect.
Arandmoor 05-07-07, 05:36 PM	Um here is what the SRD days: "Critical Hits When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." So extra damage, above and beyond the usual bonuses is not doubled. This extra damage includes sneak attack dice and their ilk, as well as power attack damage, or damage from holy effects. Power attack is not a usual bonus. An a magical lance that did +1d6 extra damage from being holy would not double the holy effect, just the lance effect. Wow...okay. Ignore me then. SRD > Me
crashlogic 05-07-07, 05:38 PM	Ok so I multiply the PA bonus like it was clean damage (like I get from my STR bonus) Lets put it in relation to this boss I thought up. We'll assume that he uses his +2 lance in both hands at all times. STR 22 (+6 bonus) So a normal attack will yield 1d8+11 A mounted spirited charge will triplicate this damage to 3d8+33 A critical on this charge will yield 5d8+55 damage (multiplication stacking) A normal power attack exchanging +5 attack bonus for 10 damage yields 1d8+21. And a spirited charge with the same power attack will yield that damage, tripled to a total of 3d8+63 And adding a critical to that will get me a whopping 5d8+105 damage? So trading in power attack on a mounted spirited charge yields 6 damage on every 1 point of power attack. Well yes. Or at least 4 points on a critical depending on your interpretation of what is extra damage.
crashlogic 05-07-07, 05:41 PM	Wow...okay. Ignore me then. SRD > Me Well not quite, here is the wrinkle: "Multiplying Damage Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied." This seems to confine it to extra damage dice, which may mean that in fact, the PA bonus does triple since it is not extra dice, but an extra bonus. So the SRD is confusing on this point. You may be right. If any one has access to the PH, maybe its made more clear in that.
Radijs 05-07-07, 05:47 PM	Well not quite, here is the wrinkle: "Multiplying Damage Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied." This seems to confine it to extra damage dice, which may mean that in fact, the PA bonus does triple since it is not extra dice, but an extra bonus. So the SRD is confusing on this point. You may be right. If any one has access to the PH, maybe its made more clear in that. So I was right with my first interpretation. 4 to one exchanging on power attack instead of 6 to one. (barring criticals)
starfire311 05-07-07, 06:00 PM	So I was right with my first interpretation. 4 to one exchanging on power attack instead of 6 to one. (barring criticals) no you were not, using a 2 handed weapon to power attack is not multiplying your power attack, you just get a bonus to damage equal to twice the penality you take, so you take a -1 penalty you get a +2 damage, you then use spirited charge and this multies the damage by 3, and this is where you start using the multipler rules, and thus 1 point of penalty gives you +2 times 3 or +6 damage.
Marcus Majarra 05-07-07, 06:03 PM	So I was right with my first interpretation. 4 to one exchanging on power attack instead of 6 to one. (barring criticals) Again, no. Power Attack results in a bonus to your damage. When you multiply your damage, so too does your bonuses multiply. If you'll read Power Attack carefully, you'll realize that the bonus to damage doesn't get doubled when you wield a weapon in two hands. The feat stipulates that your bonus to damage is equal to twice your penalty, not twice the bonus from using Power Attack with a one-handed weapon. As such, every damage multiplier will affect the entire bonus to damage from Power Attack. A character wielding a greataxe with Power Attack (-2 penalty) will deal 1d12+4 points of damage. On a critical hit, this damage is rolled three times: 3d12+12. If this were a character wielding a lance while mounted with Spirited Charge, he'd also be dealing triple damage: 3d8+12. Now, if that charge were a critical hit, you'd get two extra damage multipliers (since lances deal x3 damage on crits), for a total of 5d8+20.
Arandmoor 05-07-07, 06:37 PM	Okay, after going back and re-reading the sections of the PHB on critical hits I'm retracting my "u win" post. Once again...you multiply the bonus damage from PA. PHB pg. 114 Critical Hits heading and 140 Critical Hits side bar "Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." The extra damage mentioned is specifically extra damage dice and additive damage from non-weapon sources (that fire clinging to your sword, burning everything it touches, isn't actually a part of your sword). "a weapon's normal damage" in this case is damage that's actually dealt by the weapon itself, which is increased by things like enhancement bonuses, strength, and power attack. Just because you're going all out and swinging for the fences doesn't mean your weapon isn't doing the hitting. Swinging baseball style isn't going to make that fire burn any hotter...but that lance sure is going to hurt a hell of a lot more. As for sneak attacks...that would just be silly. Now, does it all balance out? Yes. Why? Because the bad-guys can do it too. If people start to catch on about your fighter as he continues to own it up someone's going to catch on (or just by happenstance...it's just a matter of time really) and come at him with a long spear... ...and power attack... Honestly, Spirited Charge and Power Attack is no worse than a rogue with Improved Feint (although it takes way more feats)... ...or a wizard buddy to cast improved invisibility on him... ...or glitterdust on the enemy... ...or a level of wizard or sorcerer and access to Color Spray... ...or Blindness/Deafness... ...or Darkness on them and Blindsight on him...
crashlogic 05-07-07, 07:34 PM	That makes sense to me. It seemed a little odd the way the SRD has it differently in two places. This is cleaner, and thus, in my mind, better. its not that many feats, and a human fighter is well on the way to this by second level. :) A fighter on a horse with a lance is a dangerous combat.
Arandmoor 05-07-07, 07:54 PM	It might help that my PHB is the newest printing. I lost my old one and picked up a copy from my FLGS' newest shipment.
Tony Vargas 05-07-07, 08:59 PM	+6? Are you sure? Usually multipliers don't stack that way. 2X+2X= 3X in most DND cases.Yes. The doubled damage for Power Attacking is not technically a multiplier! It's a different ratio 2:1 instead of 1:1. I know, it's silly, but it's technically correct, and, it's easier than aplying a different multiplier to the power attack damage than to the character's other damage bonuses. You could house-rule Power Attack such that wielding a weapon two-handed doubles the damage from Power Attack. Then you'd have to calculate a different multiple for power attack damage than for, say STR damage. You could even get really picky and decide that the 1 1/2x STR damage for using a weapon two-handed is also a multipliers. So, with a two-handed lance charge at -2 power attack, you could end up doing d8 x2 (or 2d8) + 2 (14 STR) x2.5 + 2 (2 point power attack) x3 damage. That'd be less than the normal way: (d8 + 7) x2 or 2d8 +14, three points less, in fact. If that's worse the extra complexity, you could do it. OTOH, if you're dealing with leap-attacking frenzied berserkers making power attacks, the extra complexity would save your monsters from a lot more than 3 points of extra damage...
Vharuck 05-07-07, 11:28 PM	This discussion is making me contemplate a new house rule: No friggin' lances. :P
Ubasrawr 05-08-07, 02:32 AM	It's always nice to learn something new. So Powerattack with a 1 hand weapon at -2 Bab yields +2 Dmg. Powerattack with 2 hand weapons at -2Bab yields also +2 Dmg? Man that hurts a 2 handweapon wielder. I always interpreted that 2hW get a advantage when using powerattack. -2 Bab yielding +4dmg. If I am not reading the other rules wrong, then all integers get mulitplied but the Dice never does.
tos_shai_hulud 05-08-07, 02:36 AM	It's always nice to learn something new. So Powerattack with a 1 hand weapon at -2 Bab yields +2 Dmg. Powerattack with 2 hand weapons at -2Bab yields also +2 Dmg? Man that hurts a 2 handweapon wielder. I always interpreted that 2hW get a advantage when using powerattack. -2 Bab yielding +4dmg. If I am not reading the other rules wrong, then all integers get mulitplied but the Dice never does. No, your interpretation of power attack is accurate. Power Attack with a 2-handed weapot at -2 BAB yields +4 damage, as you thought.
Ubasrawr 05-08-07, 02:43 AM	So Fighter with 13 str and lance holding 2 handed (screw flavor) on horse back would be like: 1D8 +1 Power attack (-1 Bab yielding +2dmg) 1D8 +3 Charging Powerattack (-1 bab) 2D8 +6 Sprinted Charging Powerattack (-1bab) 3D8 +9 Critical Sprinted Charging Powerattack (-1Bab) 5D8 +15 there you go. So yes for each point of Powerattack with a lance wielding 2 handed you gain a +6 bonus to damage while sprinted charging. On a critical hit it is going to be +10
Radijs 05-08-07, 05:46 AM	That settles it then. Lots of damage. Now only to keep the mount safe.
crashlogic 05-08-07, 12:30 PM	Well there are two distinct concepts here: there is the doubling of all damage caused by using a lance while charging, and the doubling of the extra damage from power attack with a two handed weapon. Power attack with a two handed weapon doubles the damage giand from taking the attack penalty: i.e., a -1 to attack roll nets +2 to damage. It does not double the entire damage. In contrast, charding with a lance doubles all damage. The way you calculate double damage is simply to roll damage as if there were two seperate attacks and then add them together. So a lance does 1d8 + 2 (str)+2 (pa)+2 (specialization) + 1d8 + 2 (str)+2 (pa)+2 (specialization). The shorthand way of noting this is 2d8+4+4+4 or 2d8+12. If you use spirited charge you do triple damage instead of double, or 3d8+18. Since the damage is already multplied, a critical hit does not multiply a multiple. It adds one less than the multiplier. So a x3 critical modifier applied to x3 damage yields a X5 total modifier (x3+2). this modifier apllies to all damage. So we get 5d8+30. Actually though, using the lance in two hands would use a +3 Str mod, not a plus 2 (two handed weapons do 1.5 x str. modifier) so really its 5d8+35. And this is with a normal, non magical, lance and a realtive moderate fighter. Lances are brutal. and keeping the mount alive depends on the mount. I mean if you can ride a dragon.....
NoldorForce 05-08-07, 12:38 PM	Well there are two distinct concepts here: there is the doubling of all damage caused by using a lance while charging, and the doubling of the extra damage from power attack with a two handed weapon.This is not a multiplier, but rather a separate ratio. Combat Brute and Favored Power Attack do similar stuff by changing this ratio. Your math still works out, though.