Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kilmore 05-19-07, 01:12 PM	Say you disarm someone, then on their turn they attempt to pick up the weapon. This provokes an attack of opportunity. Can you disarm them with that attack of opportunity so that they do not pick up the weapon, or do they technical still not have the weapon yet for you to disarm?
Magrus 05-19-07, 01:18 PM	You can't. They are already disarmed, so doing so would auto-fail and be a wasted action. It's like casting Cure Serious Wounds on a fully healed character. Sure, the caster did his job and cast the spell successfully, it was just done in a way that had no use. You can go through the motions of disarming a character with no weapon in his hand, but it's worthless.
vader_rocks 05-19-07, 01:19 PM	Hmmm... How about taking your AoO on the weapon itself? That way, you could kick it across the room away from your opponent.
Magrus 05-19-07, 01:21 PM	Hmmm... How about taking your AoO on the weapon itself? That way, you could kick it across the room away from your opponent. Now that is creative thinking and would warrant my allowing it in a game. I would probably rule that the size of your weapon and the size of the weapon "hit" would affect how far it would go. Rolling damage might be a way to see how many feet away it flew.
Matthew77 05-19-07, 01:31 PM	Hmmm... How about taking your AoO on the weapon itself? That way, you could kick it across the room away from your opponent. But the Weapon didn't provoke the AoO. Doing this could open you up to odd requests from the players. "If I can decide to take my AoO against an object lying on the ground when person A provokes an attack, why can't I decide to hit person B instead of person A" "Hey, my ally just moved through my threatened space, so I can take an AoO, but I want to use it against that Orc instead." If you had multiple attacks, then I might allow a disarm with the first attack, and knocking the weapon across the room with a second attack. Or you take a standard action to disarm someone, then use your own move action to pick up the weapon.
kilmore 05-19-07, 04:15 PM	Are there any rules for throwing objects, or otherwise moving objects in a non-combat sense? For example, if bob wants to hurl a healing potion over to an injured fred, who is standing 50 feet away, what does he have to roll to throw? Does fred have to roll anything to catch? Or if bob disarms a gnoll, and then wants to kick the gnolls weapon over to fred, what should bob roll? Can fred catch it? If there aren't any official rules about that sort of thing, are there any widely accepted house rules?
Marcus Majarra 05-19-07, 07:40 PM	An attack of opportunity takes place before the action that triggers the attack of opportunity. Thus, if the opponent is picking up an item and provokes an attack of opportunity from you, the attack takes place before the item is picked up. Also, keep in mind that, if you've been disarmed, you're no longer threatening your opponent unless you're already wielding another weapon. As such, you get no attacks of opportunity since you do not threaten your opponent.
Kouk 05-19-07, 11:40 PM	An attack of opportunity takes place before the action that triggers the attack of opportunity. Thus, if the opponent is picking up an item and provokes an attack of opportunity from you, the attack takes place before the item is picked up. Also, keep in mind that, if you've been disarmed, you're no longer threatening your opponent unless you're already wielding another weapon. As such, you get no attacks of opportunity since you do not threaten your opponent. Yes, AoO would be when he is bending down to pick it up. Could someone ready an action to knock it out of his hands once he picked it up? Maybe, but I think it would be a regular Disarm attempt. Consequences. If you beat the defender, the defender is disarmed. If you attempted the disarm action unarmed, you now have the weapon. If you were armed, the defender’s weapon is on the ground in the defender’s square.I would allow you to knock it away one space if you take a move action and accept an AoO for moving into the opponent's square and kicking it (if he can take an AoO fine, but his buddies get one on you too).
Kouk 05-19-07, 11:43 PM	Are there any rules for throwing objects, or otherwise moving objects in a non-combat sense? For example, if bob wants to hurl a healing potion over to an injured fred, who is standing 50 feet away, what does he have to roll to throw? Does fred have to roll anything to catch? Or if bob disarms a gnoll, and then wants to kick the gnolls weapon over to fred, what should bob roll? Can fred catch it? If there aren't any official rules about that sort of thing, are there any widely accepted house rules? For throwing, sure there are rules. Just throw it like you throw a vial of Acid or a Alchemist's Fire. You might succeed and hit where you aim, or you are off and have to roll a d8. If it isn't just a potion or something similar to an existing throwing item, you can go through the rules and find info for throwing improvised weapons (pretty much anything can be an improvised weapon). Catching is the area there isn't much help with. You could aim at their feet and let them pick it up on their turn if you can't settle on a catching rule. Do potions bottles shatter though? You can figure out falling damage maybe. At any rate you can invest in some metal containers and just pour the potions in those.
MarkB 05-20-07, 06:53 AM	Say you disarm someone, then on their turn they attempt to pick up the weapon. This provokes an attack of opportunity. Can you disarm them with that attack of opportunity so that they do not pick up the weapon, or do they technical still not have the weapon yet for you to disarm? You can't disarm them with the AoO. Worse still, they can take a 5-foot-step back, and then pick up the weapon with no AoO.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-20-07, 11:02 AM	mechanics wise you cant make a disarm with the AOO prvoked by an attempt to reteve ones weapon, as the Aoo happens before the wepon is picked up. In terms of what these rules represent your foe has left himself open to an attack as he extends his arm to grasp the fallen weapon and your respond with a stop thrust that iether made him drop it as he tried to pick it up, or flinch his hand back and so not pick it up at all. Both are legitimate tactics I think best represented by the usual disarm mechanics.
Marcus Majarra 05-20-07, 02:29 PM	You can't disarm them with the AoO. Worse still, they can take a 5-foot-step back, and then pick up the weapon with no AoO. Do you have the source for this? I was under the impression you could only pick up items in your square.
MarkB 05-20-07, 02:56 PM	Do you have the source for this? I was under the impression you could only pick up items in your square. I've had it done against my disarm-specialist character in a Living Greyhawk game, and whilst I made no fuss at the time, I did look afterwards for any rules citations to prevent it and came up blank. If a character can reach into an opponent's square and pluck a weapon from his hand, there doesn't seem to be any good reason he couldn't do the same thing to pick up a weapon from the ground in an adjacent square.
Ace_of_time 05-20-07, 07:44 PM	his hand is about four feet from the ground. To pick up a weapon from the ground you would have to enter you enemy's sqaure (normally a AoO) and then bend down to pick it up. That Seems a little different from a quick snatch out of you enemy's hands.
Kouk 05-20-07, 09:47 PM	If it is an unattended tiny object you have to enter the square to manipulate it. Disarm is a special ability that does not target the item, but interacts with the opponent who takes up the whole space and presumably you are right next to when you attempt the action.
Ace_of_time 05-20-07, 10:08 PM	Why not take the AoO then disarm when he picks it up?
weasel0 05-21-07, 12:15 AM	I'ts the same arguement then that is attempted to justify tripping kings. I trip, he goes to get up, AoO, I trip and he's back down. But all AoO are resolved before the action is taken. So, sure you can disarm him again later down the road, but not disarm him off of his AoO for going for his weapon.
Kouk 05-21-07, 01:03 AM	Why not take the AoO then disarm when he picks it up? You can take the AoO, but if it hits it interrupts his attempt to pick it up again. You might ready an action to disarm him the next time he succeeds at picking up his weapon?
Ace_of_time 05-21-07, 12:38 PM	Then he would have to ready it every round. It would be easier just to att and kill him. ( not moving) Maybe it has been posted but does he want to know how he would keep the enemy from the weapon or how to get his own weapon back? If that is the case just bullrush him then pick up the weapon next time you can. Could use tumble if you can get him off the weapon.
chiefcastor 05-21-07, 04:23 PM	You can take the AoO, but if it hits it interrupts his attempt to pick it up again. Can I get a source for this... AoO do not interrupt the action that provokes them unless it specifically says so (like grapple does). If you provoke an AoO by moving you still get to move if they hit you.
fukifino 05-21-07, 04:26 PM	Hmmm... How about taking your AoO on the weapon itself? That way, you could kick it across the room away from your opponent. Technically still not legal. The weapon isn't provoking the AoO, the person picking it up is. If someone provokes an AoO from a character, that character doesn't get carte blanche to attack anyone or anything he wishes, only the person provoking the AoO.
fukifino 05-21-07, 04:27 PM	Can I get a source for this... AoO do not interrupt the action that provokes them unless it specifically says so (like grapple does). If you provoke an AoO by moving you still get to move if they hit you. From the SRD: An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn). Although the person you quoted is wrong..."interrupt" as used here doesn't mean that the action in question is halted. Yes, you interrupt his attempt to pick up the weapon, but that doesn't prevent him from completing his action if he is still concious when the attack concludes.
mvincent 05-21-07, 04:30 PM	I'ts the same arguement then that is attempted to justify tripping kings. I trip, he goes to get up, AoO, I trip and he's back down. But all AoO are resolved before the action is taken.Correct. One interesting way to create a loop: 1) Trip opponent 2) Use the AoO from him standing to disarm him 3) Use the AoO from him retrieving his weapon to trip him 4) Goto 2
mvincent 05-21-07, 04:42 PM	If it is an unattended tiny object you have to enter the square to manipulate it.Where do the rules say that? The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#manipulateanItem) says: "Manipulate an Item In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. " So you can certainly manipulate items that are not in your square (indeed, sometimes this is the only way to move some doors and heavy objects). I believe that I'm one of the most thorough rules researchers on these boards, and I've never heard of the rule you describe. So I guess I'm calling you out: were you making this up?
Marcus Majarra 05-21-07, 11:14 PM	Where do the rules say that? The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#manipulateanItem) says: "Manipulate an Item In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. " So you can certainly manipulate items that are not in your square (indeed, sometimes this is the only way to move some doors and heavy objects). I believe that I'm one of the most thorough rules researchers on these boards, and I've never heard of the rule you describe. So I guess I'm calling you out: were you making this up? Your quote isn't exactly relevant in this context since we're not arguing the type of action required to manipulate an item. We're arguing at what reach a creature can manipulate the item. In any case, what you're quoting neither proves nor disproves your claims. It's arguable that moving heavy objects is akin to bull rushing a creature, but bull rushing an opponent requires that you enter that creature's square (see page 154 of the PHB), so I'm inclined to disagree with you on this issue. Furthermore, moving a door is also a debatable subject, since they typically occupy a square's border (as illustrated on page 311 of the DMG). As such, it stands to reason that anyone on either side of that border can manipulate the door, since they're occupying the same square as the door.
weasel0 05-22-07, 01:18 AM	Given the size of a 5' square and the size of most weapons, it's more likely that the weapon would be out of reach than in reach. If you really want a "fair" way of determining it, do a 50/50 to see if it's close enough to grab. Either way, we should answer(or come to a majority consensus at least) that you can't use an AoO to pick/kick or otherwise mess with something that isn't provoking the AoO in the first place.
Kouk 05-22-07, 02:01 AM	From the SRD: Although the person you quoted is wrong..."interrupt" as used here doesn't mean that the action in question is halted. Yes, you interrupt his attempt to pick up the weapon, but that doesn't prevent him from completing his action if he is still concious when the attack concludes. OK, I see your point. It interrupts it but doesn't necessarily stop it from happening, the same as an AoO taken for movement doesn't actually prevent the movement.
Kouk 05-22-07, 02:05 AM	So I guess I'm calling you out: were you making this up? "Making up" is so harsh :eek: Perhaps the fact that tiny and smaller creatures have to enter your square to attack you got mixed up in my brain with little bits of logic like your arm isn't 5 feet long (most people's at least). I guess a creature with natural reach probably could get to an item in another square pretty well. Then again you can attack tiny things from an adjacent square by the book so whatever... I generally assume creatures and objects occupy the middle-ish area of a square they are in unless they are performing a particular action (like going to the border of the square to get an adjacent door). I guess you are free to visualize that a tiny object would always conveniently be on the border of two squares if you wish. I'll point out that the rules you quote don't say "you can always manipulate objects from adjacent squares". Edit: For that matter I can't see a rule that specifically says you can't manipulate an object from 10, 15, even 50 feet away (without magic anyway). So it is up to your interpretation of the situation.
mvincent 05-22-07, 11:57 AM	Your quote isn't exactly relevant in this contextIt showed that you can manipulate heavy objects and doors, and (more pointedly) is shows that the rules do not say that you have to be in the same square as the object manipulated. since we're not arguing the type of action required to manipulate an item. We're arguing at what reach a creature can manipulate the item. what you're quoting neither proves nor disproves your claims.My claim was that the rules on manipulating objects didn't say that you had to be in the same square as the object manipulated (which my quote makes clear). Now, as evidenced by many other occasions in the rules: you can grab things that you threaten (see improved grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab), Grabbing Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grabbingItems), Disarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm), Snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch), etc.) It's arguable that moving heavy objects is akin to bull rushing a creatureIt's arguable that picking up a small object is akin to grabbing a loosely secured item from a tiny creature (like say, a grig). By the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grabbingItems), this can be (and usually is) done from an adjacent square. This issue has actually been conclusively discussed many times before. I can provide links to those threads if desired.
mvincent 05-22-07, 12:14 PM	Perhaps the fact that tiny and smaller creatures have to enter your square to attack you got mixed up in my brainAh, that seems an easy mistake then. Sorry I was harsh. Edit: For that matter I can't see a rule that specifically says you can't manipulate an object from 10, 15, even 50 feet awayBased on all precedence I've seen, you can manipulate any object within your reach. The rules do say that for instance, a titan could grab an item, disarm, snatch, etc. from 15' away, but not 20' (since a titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) is specifically listed with a reach of 15').
weasel0 05-22-07, 08:41 PM	So then to make a generic rule for ease of use, a creature can manipulate anything within it's listed reach wouldn't be a ... strech :P by anymeans. Of course, when engaged in battle, you're also assumed to be dancing about in your square as is the opponent, each looking for openings to exploit. An unattended object is not. But who really wants to make things more complicated? hmmm??
mvincent 05-23-07, 12:28 AM	when engaged in battle, you're also assumed to be dancing about in your square as is the opponent, each looking for openings to exploit. An unattended object is not.Neither is say, a loosely secure item on a tiny, paralyzed (or sleeping) opponent... but the rules still allow you to grab it from an adjacent square.
weasel0 05-23-07, 02:10 AM	true. The rules also allow for Pun-Pun.
mvincent 05-23-07, 12:08 PM	true. The rules also allow for Pun-Pun.As shown, the rules appear to expect you to be able to do what I mention. If you had a player with (say) a cloud giant PC, and you told him that he could not pick up something 5' to 15' away, but rather had to enter the square to do so... he would probably look at you funny. Reach is an established concept in D&D, and most players would expect it to be applied to the "manipulate an object" action.
weasel0 05-23-07, 05:39 PM	Oh, going to grab the item is fine. But if you want me to believe that anything can reach something in the extreme square of their reach without doing something that provokes, I'm not gonna buy. So sure 5' and 10'(for said cloud giant), no problem, he's not streching, but when reaching to grab with a hand in that extreme square, he now actually has less reach than listed. Just with humans. Humans are listed with a reach of 5', but that's also with a weapon. Without said weapon, a persons reach is really only about 2.5' on avg and now has to be in a square to garuntee the said person can actually get to the object. It's like saying that one can pull the lever on the wall over there, 5' away from this square here. Like I said, I'm not buying.
mvincent 05-23-07, 06:08 PM	Oh, going to grab the item is fine. But if you want me to believe that anything can reach something in the extreme square of their reach without doing something that provokes, I'm not gonna buy.Then we seem to be in agreement. Picking up something off the ground, disarming, grabbing an item, grabbing an opponent etc. all provoke AoO's (unless you have a special feat or somesuch), which is as it should be.
weasel0 05-23-07, 11:20 PM	8) fantasic.
Ace_of_time 05-24-07, 01:07 AM	What if you were tiny? Would you get two AoOs? One for going into their space and then for picking up an item? Just wondering.
mvincent 05-24-07, 12:42 PM	What if you were tiny? Would you get two AoOs? One for going into their space and then for picking up an item? Yup
Midrealm_DM 05-24-07, 02:47 PM	I've had it done against my disarm-specialist character in a Living Greyhawk game, and whilst I made no fuss at the time, I did look afterwards for any rules citations to prevent it and came up blank. If a character can reach into an opponent's square and pluck a weapon from his hand, there doesn't seem to be any good reason he couldn't do the same thing to pick up a weapon from the ground in an adjacent square. Yes but doesn't disarming an opponent prokes an attack of opportunity, could it be because you have to move in close to them to do so? Maybe, the rules don't really get into why certain actions provoke AoO. Generally I would say any weapon item could only be retrieved by someone in the same square (I would make an exception for a reach weapon, since they are typically longer then 5') I would probably allow an attack on the object to knock it away however, AC = 5 modified by size (5 AC because it has Dexterity 0 thus a -5 AC modifier NOTE: A sleeping or paralyzed character has a Dex of 0, so sleeping characters not only loose their Dex bonus, but take on an penalty of 5 instead. A unarmored sleeping medium sized charater has AC 5 and is also prone. Just a fun tidbit for those of you who care So a player with multiple attacks could disarm on attack 1 and use attack 2 to knock the weapon away. Moving it 5' for every 5 points of damage that would have been done or something similar. Just my thoughts....
Coldkilla 05-24-07, 05:49 PM	Then we seem to be in agreement. Picking up something off the ground, disarming, grabbing an item, grabbing an opponent etc. all provoke AoO's (unless you have a special feat or somesuch), which is as it should be. But you should only provoke AoOs from opponents who threaten the square(s) you occupy, not from ones who only threaten the square(s) you are reaching into or through. It seems some might wish to apply AoOs to the titan's hand/arm since it is moving through some squares to grab something at the extreme end of its reach. I can find nothing in the rules to support this.
mvincent 05-24-07, 06:07 PM	It seems some might wish to apply AoOs to the titan's hand/arm since it is moving through some squares to grab something at the extreme end of its reach. I can find nothing in the rules to support this.From the 3.5 FAQ: "Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away, you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre (since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy 10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with his hand, such as when trying to grapple you. Even the Close-Quarters Fighting feat doesn’t help, since that feat applies only when the attack of opportunity against a grappling foe normally would be denied by “a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack” and lists Improved Grapple and improved grab as examples. If, as DM, this bothers your sensibilities and you and your players are willing to bend the letter of the rules a bit, consider the following house rule that the Sage has used in his games in the past: If a foe would provoke an attack of opportunity with any action that brings him (or something he holds) into contact with you or your space, you may make an attack of opportunity against the foe (or the object he holds, if that’s what’s contacting you). This means that an ogre trying to initiate a grapple would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make against the ogre (since his hand and arm are clearly coming within your reach to grab you), while the same ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt)." I personally only allow someone to do this with a readied action. From other discussions, this seems to be preferred option.
Coldkilla 05-24-07, 06:34 PM	From the 3.5 FAQ: ... I personally only allow someone to do this with a readied action. From other discussions, this seems to be preferred option. Thanks for posting that. I hadn't encountered it before, and it does make sense, but it still only addresses the situation where the reaching creature is making direct contact with or impinging into the square of its opponent. The situation I am trying to cover and clarify is when the opponent is not in a square being reached into/through; the opponent is merely in a nearby square and threatens one or more of the squares being reached into/through, but does not threaten any of the squares the reacher himself occupies. That is when no AoO should be allowed. Does that make sense?
mvincent 05-24-07, 06:49 PM	the opponent is merely in a nearby square and threatens one or more of the squares being reached into/through, but does not threaten any of the squares the reacher himself occupies. That is when no AoO should be allowed. Does that make sense?The FAQ answer seemed to address that. D&D mechanics don't really function as you desire. There are no called shots... no striking at a limb... if you can't strike the main creature, then you can't strike it all. Not following this can negate many of the advantages from reach, but also cause weirdness. For instance: a player might claim that a giant's limb is moving in and out of his threatened area with each of the giant's attacks... so does the player get an AoO on the limb each time? (of course not). What if a Vorpal effect occurs when the limb is attacked (is the giant beheaded?). Stunning fist? Can one kill a giant by repeatedly attacking its hand? The FAQ gave a house-rule related to this if you desire, but answered how this was handled by RAW.
Coldkilla 05-24-07, 07:04 PM	The FAQ answer seemed to address that. D&D mechanics don't really function as you desire. There are no called shots... no striking at a limb... if you can't strike the main creature, then you can't strike it all. Not following this can negate many of the advantages from reach, but also cause weirdness. LOL, mvincent, we are both taking the same side of the argument, but somehow I haven't made myself clear or you are misinterpreting what I am saying. You put it much more succinctly than I did -- "If you can't strike the main creature, then you can't strike it at all." That's what I was trying to impart in my roundabout way with the squares occupied vs squares being reached through/into business. It seems we are at odds in communicating. This isn't the first time you've misconstrued my argument as taking the opposite position. :D
mvincent 05-24-07, 07:22 PM	LOL, mvincent, we are both taking the same side of the argumentAh... my aplogies then. I apparently read: "That is when no AoO should be allowed" as "That is when an AoO should be allowed" I guess I'm just accustomed to any reply to an argument as supplying a counter-argument
Ace_of_time 05-24-07, 10:31 PM	LOL, mvincent, we are both taking the same side of the argument, but somehow I haven't made myself clear or you are misinterpreting what I am saying. You put it much more succinctly than I did -- "If you can't strike the main creature, then you can't strike it at all." That's what I was trying to impart in my roundabout way with the squares occupied vs squares being reached through/into business. It seems we are at odds in communicating. This isn't the first time you've misconstrued my argument as taking the opposite position. :D That happens to everyone from time to time.