item pricing issue [Archive] - Wizards Community

item pricing issue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
uchiha2836
09-18-07, 12:37 PM I'm trying to figure out where to price an item. One of my casting charaters wants a periopt of WIS that uses an insight or sacred bonus rather than enhancement. His charactor is willing to fork over the cash to have it crafted for him, but I am not sure how much it would even cost.

The prices listed in the item guides are for the enhancement bonus and I don't see any guidelines as to how to change the bonus type. I'm not sure what to compair it to, for price purposes. A different bonus type would stack more easily, but I don't know how much that is worth- double the original price perhaps? I tend to want to allow it if he is willing to pay for it, but I just don't know how much.

Any suggestions?
Some_call_me_Tim
09-18-07, 02:17 PM Generally, what you are suggesting is a bad idea. As you say the reason he wants to do it is to stack more easily. I would assume to make it cheaper in the long run. For example, a +6 periapt is 36000, even if you double the cost a +2 would be 8000, add that to a +4 periapt for 16000 and you get the same effect for only 24000. It also allows you to boost scores very high.

The two types of bonuses that I've seen applied to ability scores are enhancement and inherent.

I wouldn't allow such as thing, too cheesy for my tastes. I would say perhaps half what an inherent bonus would cost since the item can be destroyed or the effect dispelled. So, lets call it 27,500 per +2, but that might be me just being vindictive.

The only rules I can compare it to is the difference in cost between armor bonus (enhancement) and AC bonus (luck, insight, sacred, or profane). The second cost 2.5x the former. Double that for an unslotted item. So let's see that works out to:

Widget of the Wise
Although it appears to be a normal doodad, a widget of the wise actually increases the possessor’s Wisdom score in the form of a sacred bonus of +2, +4, or +6 (depending on the individual item).
Price 20,000 gp (+2), 80,000 gp (+4), 180,000 gp (+6).

If it was slotted to something other than the neck (same as periapt)
Price 15,000 gp (+2), 60,000 gp (+4), 120,000 gp (+6).

Neck slot would be:
Price 10,000 gp (+2), 40,000 gp (+4), 60,000 gp (+6).
Witch
09-18-07, 02:26 PM I recommend that Sacred bonuses should only be given out by blessings of the Upper Planes. Insight bonuses should not be given out at all (yes, I am aware of Owl's Insight.)
uchiha2836
09-18-07, 03:31 PM I will have to consider wether to allow this at all now, but if I do, I think I do like the way "Tim" priced it. I want to be able to encourgae the players, this IS the first time any of them suggested having an item specially made- and they are fairly high level. He also did ask acleric of his diety about it, hence the sacred bonus question. (although the cleric has not yet responded- she's "looking into it") I did not consider the ramifications of the stacking "discount" like that though and would have to price to compensate it if it is allowed.

Thanks
Some_call_me_Tim
09-18-07, 04:43 PM Insight bonuses should not be given out at all (yes, I am aware of Owl's Insight.)I had not thought about that.
If we were to base it on owl's insight, it would even more expensive:

Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp = 5 x 9 x 2,000 gp = 90,000 gp

for continuous +4 insight bonus to Wisdom and 120,000 gp for +6.

I did not consider the ramifications of the stacking "discount" like that though and would have to price to compensate it if it is allowed.Well lets look at cost/benefit of a periapt; periapt and tome of understanding; periapt and widget of the wise (non-neck slot); finally, the owl's insight item from above.

+2.....4K.....4K.....4K.....4K
+4....16K....16K....16K....16K
+6....32K....32K....31K....32K
+8.....--....87K....47K....72K* *(if you price it at CL 4)
+10....--...142K....92K...122K
+12....--.....--...152K...152K

At +6, you get a 1000 gp discount but need two slots; probably not worth it.
At +8, the discount is now 40,000 gp, but uses two slots and the item can be destroyed/dispelled; that still seems to be a bargain.
By +10, your savings has grown to 50,000 gp.

Based, on that I think the widget of the wise is too much of a bargain and the numbers for owl's insight item start to look more reasonable; give up a slot to save 15-20,000 gp.
eamon
09-20-07, 10:13 AM Basically, anti-stacking rules are intended to avoid pile-it-on play. Rather than just maxxing out one thing in every which way possible, you're encouraged to try different approaches.

In that vein, I wouldn't allow any other bonus types at all - unless the character is truly trying out "different approaches" - a custom magic item simply doesn't qualify. I'd let em make an item with an "odd" bonus, I might reward them by letting them get it with a shorter creation time, or perhaps a lower price if they role-play smartly, but I wouldn't grant them anything other than an enhancement bonus otherwise. It's not really creative, just asking for "make one stat better, please?"

Alternatively, you could indeed go the Tome of Understanding route. For the measly cost of one wish you can increase your wisdom by +1 - a (non-dispellable) inherent bonus. You could package that bonus a little differently to make it's flavor better match what they're asking for, however: an item granting the same effect (a scarecrow's hat, say :D) could be cheaper than the "normal" tome of understanding since it uses a slot. That would mean a pricing of approximately 10k per +1 bonus (not +2!), no squaring necessary, might be appropriate. It's not very expensive, but it's a slotted magic item as opposed to an un-stealable, unslotted instantaneous effect which warrents the price difference between 10k per wisdom and 27.5k per wisdom. And, importantly, they don't stack.

Don't grant sacred or insight bonuses. It's just pile-it-on play.
1 ton ghost
09-20-07, 11:42 PM my boy craig was always trying this $hit...

i'm for experimenting, but there is a limit.

wanted a Travel Cloak (permanent Endure Elements, turns into tent, supplies food&water 1/day/1 med person) but also wanted to have it as a Cloak of Resistance, +1 saves...
wtf?
i know, it was simple enough, but this type of gaming invariably leads to min/maxing and you forget the character's persona in favor of a series of numbers and letters that look cool...but have no soul really. he has plenty of badasses, but they become talking heads, tanks made out of digits, not creative ideas/plot hooks.

i didn't mind him paying extra for odd bonus types, but even this was getting exploited after a while. ex)Ring of Prot. +1 grounded in luck, not deflection so he could get another ring, albeit a normal (deflective) one. oh, and i think Luck Bonuses stack too...

and the straw that broke the camel's back: expressely doing item creation by creature/user type...lowers cost by 30% but is essentially a big F-U to anyone but said PC. also a cheap way to screw the bank, or me the DM
Sildatorak
09-22-07, 01:21 PM wanted a Travel Cloak (permanent Endure Elements, turns into tent, supplies food&water 1/day/1 med person) but also wanted to have it as a Cloak of Resistance, +1 saves...That doesn't seem so bad at all. The travel cloak is a moderately useful bit of adventuring gear while the cloak of resistance is a solid piece of combat equipment. I'd just go with this rule for this one:Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

i know, it was simple enough, but this type of gaming invariably leads to min/maxing and you forget the character's persona in favor of a series of numbers and letters that look cool...but have no soul really.If he was really trying to number crunch he wouldn't want a travel cloak with his cloak of resistance.

i didn't mind him paying extra for odd bonus types, but even this was getting exploited after a while. ex)Ring of Prot. +1 grounded in luck, not deflection so he could get another ring, albeit a normal (deflective) one. oh, and i think Luck Bonuses stack too...

and the straw that broke the camel's back: expressely doing item creation by creature/user type...lowers cost by 30% but is essentially a big F-U to anyone but said PC. also a cheap way to screw the bank, or me the DMThis chunk, however, I agree with. Personally, I don't cut discounts on creation cost for restricting the use of magic items. I simply drop their effective value when it comes to reselling them by that much. This is the type of combat-focused pile-it-on BS that you should avoid by sticking with the regular bonus types outside of DM-created items that are supposed to be special rewards.
1 ton ghost
09-22-07, 01:33 PM yeah, i'm pretty much w/ you 100% on most counts.
Travel Cloak especially. they are so terribly effective for overland travel and so forth. i mean, everyone is prepared to kick alot of ass and so on, but they never remember that getting rain soaked in cold weather will kill you via pneumonia as surely as an orc's blade.
basically, if it's w/in reason (like the cloak) i usually look the other way.
shaving off as much cash for item creation, apart from occaisional feat that lowers rate, is right out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
uchiha2836 09-18-07, 12:37 PM	I'm trying to figure out where to price an item. One of my casting charaters wants a periopt of WIS that uses an insight or sacred bonus rather than enhancement. His charactor is willing to fork over the cash to have it crafted for him, but I am not sure how much it would even cost. The prices listed in the item guides are for the enhancement bonus and I don't see any guidelines as to how to change the bonus type. I'm not sure what to compair it to, for price purposes. A different bonus type would stack more easily, but I don't know how much that is worth- double the original price perhaps? I tend to want to allow it if he is willing to pay for it, but I just don't know how much. Any suggestions?
Some_call_me_Tim 09-18-07, 02:17 PM	Generally, what you are suggesting is a bad idea. As you say the reason he wants to do it is to stack more easily. I would assume to make it cheaper in the long run. For example, a +6 periapt is 36000, even if you double the cost a +2 would be 8000, add that to a +4 periapt for 16000 and you get the same effect for only 24000. It also allows you to boost scores very high. The two types of bonuses that I've seen applied to ability scores are enhancement and inherent. I wouldn't allow such as thing, too cheesy for my tastes. I would say perhaps half what an inherent bonus would cost since the item can be destroyed or the effect dispelled. So, lets call it 27,500 per +2, but that might be me just being vindictive. The only rules I can compare it to is the difference in cost between armor bonus (enhancement) and AC bonus (luck, insight, sacred, or profane). The second cost 2.5x the former. Double that for an unslotted item. So let's see that works out to: Widget of the Wise Although it appears to be a normal doodad, a widget of the wise actually increases the possessor’s Wisdom score in the form of a sacred bonus of +2, +4, or +6 (depending on the individual item). Price 20,000 gp (+2), 80,000 gp (+4), 180,000 gp (+6). If it was slotted to something other than the neck (same as periapt) Price 15,000 gp (+2), 60,000 gp (+4), 120,000 gp (+6). Neck slot would be: Price 10,000 gp (+2), 40,000 gp (+4), 60,000 gp (+6).
Witch 09-18-07, 02:26 PM	I recommend that Sacred bonuses should only be given out by blessings of the Upper Planes. Insight bonuses should not be given out at all (yes, I am aware of Owl's Insight.)
uchiha2836 09-18-07, 03:31 PM	I will have to consider wether to allow this at all now, but if I do, I think I do like the way "Tim" priced it. I want to be able to encourgae the players, this IS the first time any of them suggested having an item specially made- and they are fairly high level. He also did ask acleric of his diety about it, hence the sacred bonus question. (although the cleric has not yet responded- she's "looking into it") I did not consider the ramifications of the stacking "discount" like that though and would have to price to compensate it if it is allowed. Thanks
Some_call_me_Tim 09-18-07, 04:43 PM	Insight bonuses should not be given out at all (yes, I am aware of Owl's Insight.)I had not thought about that. If we were to base it on owl's insight, it would even more expensive: Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp = 5 x 9 x 2,000 gp = 90,000 gp for continuous +4 insight bonus to Wisdom and 120,000 gp for +6. I did not consider the ramifications of the stacking "discount" like that though and would have to price to compensate it if it is allowed.Well lets look at cost/benefit of a periapt; periapt and tome of understanding; periapt and widget of the wise (non-neck slot); finally, the owl's insight item from above. +2.....4K.....4K.....4K.....4K +4....16K....16K....16K....16K +6....32K....32K....31K....32K +8.....--....87K....47K....72K* *(if you price it at CL 4) +10....--...142K....92K...122K +12....--.....--...152K...152K At +6, you get a 1000 gp discount but need two slots; probably not worth it. At +8, the discount is now 40,000 gp, but uses two slots and the item can be destroyed/dispelled; that still seems to be a bargain. By +10, your savings has grown to 50,000 gp. Based, on that I think the widget of the wise is too much of a bargain and the numbers for owl's insight item start to look more reasonable; give up a slot to save 15-20,000 gp.
eamon 09-20-07, 10:13 AM	Basically, anti-stacking rules are intended to avoid pile-it-on play. Rather than just maxxing out one thing in every which way possible, you're encouraged to try different approaches. In that vein, I wouldn't allow any other bonus types at all - unless the character is truly trying out "different approaches" - a custom magic item simply doesn't qualify. I'd let em make an item with an "odd" bonus, I might reward them by letting them get it with a shorter creation time, or perhaps a lower price if they role-play smartly, but I wouldn't grant them anything other than an enhancement bonus otherwise. It's not really creative, just asking for "make one stat better, please?" Alternatively, you could indeed go the Tome of Understanding route. For the measly cost of one wish you can increase your wisdom by +1 - a (non-dispellable) inherent bonus. You could package that bonus a little differently to make it's flavor better match what they're asking for, however: an item granting the same effect (a scarecrow's hat, say :D) could be cheaper than the "normal" tome of understanding since it uses a slot. That would mean a pricing of approximately 10k per +1 bonus (not +2!), no squaring necessary, might be appropriate. It's not very expensive, but it's a slotted magic item as opposed to an un-stealable, unslotted instantaneous effect which warrents the price difference between 10k per wisdom and 27.5k per wisdom. And, importantly, they don't stack. Don't grant sacred or insight bonuses. It's just pile-it-on play.
1 ton ghost 09-20-07, 11:42 PM	my boy craig was always trying this $hit... i'm for experimenting, but there is a limit. wanted a Travel Cloak (permanent Endure Elements, turns into tent, supplies food&water 1/day/1 med person) but also wanted to have it as a Cloak of Resistance, +1 saves... wtf? i know, it was simple enough, but this type of gaming invariably leads to min/maxing and you forget the character's persona in favor of a series of numbers and letters that look cool...but have no soul really. he has plenty of badasses, but they become talking heads, tanks made out of digits, not creative ideas/plot hooks. i didn't mind him paying extra for odd bonus types, but even this was getting exploited after a while. ex)Ring of Prot. +1 grounded in luck, not deflection so he could get another ring, albeit a normal (deflective) one. oh, and i think Luck Bonuses stack too... and the straw that broke the camel's back: expressely doing item creation by creature/user type...lowers cost by 30% but is essentially a big F-U to anyone but said PC. also a cheap way to screw the bank, or me the DM
Sildatorak 09-22-07, 01:21 PM	wanted a Travel Cloak (permanent Endure Elements, turns into tent, supplies food&water 1/day/1 med person) but also wanted to have it as a Cloak of Resistance, +1 saves...That doesn't seem so bad at all. The travel cloak is a moderately useful bit of adventuring gear while the cloak of resistance is a solid piece of combat equipment. I'd just go with this rule for this one:Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. i know, it was simple enough, but this type of gaming invariably leads to min/maxing and you forget the character's persona in favor of a series of numbers and letters that look cool...but have no soul really.If he was really trying to number crunch he wouldn't want a travel cloak with his cloak of resistance. i didn't mind him paying extra for odd bonus types, but even this was getting exploited after a while. ex)Ring of Prot. +1 grounded in luck, not deflection so he could get another ring, albeit a normal (deflective) one. oh, and i think Luck Bonuses stack too... and the straw that broke the camel's back: expressely doing item creation by creature/user type...lowers cost by 30% but is essentially a big F-U to anyone but said PC. also a cheap way to screw the bank, or me the DMThis chunk, however, I agree with. Personally, I don't cut discounts on creation cost for restricting the use of magic items. I simply drop their effective value when it comes to reselling them by that much. This is the type of combat-focused pile-it-on BS that you should avoid by sticking with the regular bonus types outside of DM-created items that are supposed to be special rewards.
1 ton ghost 09-22-07, 01:33 PM	yeah, i'm pretty much w/ you 100% on most counts. Travel Cloak especially. they are so terribly effective for overland travel and so forth. i mean, everyone is prepared to kick alot of ass and so on, but they never remember that getting rain soaked in cold weather will kill you via pneumonia as surely as an orc's blade. basically, if it's w/in reason (like the cloak) i usually look the other way. shaving off as much cash for item creation, apart from occaisional feat that lowers rate, is right out.