Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Ditto 03-08-07, 08:38 AM	Ok, thought excercise here ... right off the bat, I'll set the ground rules. This thread is deliberately being established to encourage dicussion (not argument ... let's keep it civil, guys!!) I'm looking for feedback, good/bad/ugly ... I think I have the rules correct as written .. but they are stretching the limits of my sanity .... The pieces to the puzzle: Race: Normal Human Class: Ardent 1 Str: 10 +0 Int: 10 +0 Wis: 16 +3 Armor: None. Encumbrance: None (ie Light load) Base Speed: 30 ft. Jump Ranks: 0 Jump Skill: +0 PP = 2 (base) + 1 (bonus) = 3 pp Mantles (2): (I only care about 1 for this excercise ... ) Freedom - this grants us the power: "Dimension Hop". Dimension Hop - for those who don't know - allow you to teleport 10 ft. as a swift action for 1 pp. Ok ... let's start. We encounter a 30 ft wide chasm. We want to jump over it ... Our maximum Jump check is 20 ... not enough to make the leap ... but let's see what David Copperfield would do ... Round 1 Begin 25 ft. away from the edge of the chasm. Standard Action - pick your nose. Move Action - Move 25 ft up to the edge of the pit, and begin your jump - take 10. With a jump check of 10, we can jump up to 10 ft. However, since we only have 5 ft of movement left, we only move that 5 ft, and stop - suspended in mid-air (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) until our next action. (Distance in: 5 ft. Jump left: 5 ft.) Swift Action - Dimension Hop - 10 ft closer (Distance in: 15 ft. Jump left: 5 ft.) Round 2 - Swift Action - Dimension Hop - 10 ft. closer (Distance in: 25 ft. Jump left: 5 ft.) - Move action - continue move - 30 ft. (land/fall after 5 ft.) (Distance in: 30 ft - we land on the other side, and move another 25 ft.) :uh-huh: - Standard action - collect applause from the paid-off audience ... So ... does this assault anyone else's sensibilities? or is this perfectly acceptable? I'm pretty certain it's totally legit under the current rules ... again, I'm thinking it's just .. uh .. "silly" ... :D Would anyone allow this as a DM? Would anyone reward this as a DM? :confused:
primemover003 03-08-07, 10:00 AM	Even though it ends up wortking out the same I think you have to take your second Move action immediately on your next turn to continue the Jump. After that though you could Dim. Hop the remaining distance. I'd allow it.
mato_hibiki 03-08-07, 10:04 AM	Must nose picking be involved? :yuck:
The_Ditto 03-08-07, 11:47 AM	Must nose picking be involved? :yuck: hehe ... no, sorry .. just pointing out that the standard action wasn't needed, and in fact, I wanted to "waste it" so that somebody didn't come back and say: "Hey, you still have a standard action, you can use that as a move action, hence double move so you continue "jumping" in the first round .... and fall" ... Just trying to cover my bases ... ;) (I'm just not the cleanest base-coverer around .. caution must be taken sliding into 2nd ... :twitch: )
The_Ditto 03-08-07, 11:52 AM	Even though it ends up wortking out the same I think you have to take your second Move action immediately on your next turn to continue the Jump. Hmm, forgot about that .. if that's the case, then the move action goes first, I "finish" the jump, and "fall" 5 ft short of the target ... (ie 20 ft covered ..) Hmm ... still not too bad then - getting the 1 swift action in there ... the power is augmentable, so at higher level, you could really clear some distance!! :D But the double swift prior to the move was bugging me ... but the Jump rules spell it out .. as you said, you must take that move action ... so no 2xswift actions ... Kewl ... that makes me feel a bit better, anyway!! :D
FriendoftheDork 03-08-07, 12:11 PM	I don't see you got that suspended in midair thing, this is D&D not looney toons! You DO fall in D&D as well as normal, and this would happened in the first round after the jump. Basically, if you already have spent a standard action, you can't effectively jump a chasm thats longer away than speed+distance needed to be cleared. Do you even have a ruling on this, or do you just base your rules from OotS???
Matthew77 03-08-07, 01:11 PM	I don't see you got that suspended in midair thing, this is D&D not looney toons! Do you even have a ruling on this, or do you just base your rules from OotS??? The ruling is directly from the SRD, which you would be wise to check before posting to avoid inserting your foot into your mouth. Action None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump. Because D&D is a turn-based game attempting to simulate real-time actions, the effect of making a longer jump than you have movement remaining is that you are considered to be located in mid-jump until the beginning of your next turn, when you must complete the jump before taking other actions. Consider a very slow creature with a speed of 20', but with a jump check of +25 (maybe as a result of the jump spell). This creature can easily jump 35' in one action by taking 10 after running 20', so your options are to: 1) allow the jump to let the creature move over 50' in one move action, which allows him to get around his slow movement, or 2) force him to end his turn and finish his jump next time, which means during other creatures' turns, he is effectively hanging in mid-air. The D&D rules have decided that option 2 is less abusable than option 1.
mvincent 03-08-07, 01:17 PM	I don't see you got that suspended in midair thing, this is D&D not looney toons! (edit: Matthew77 beat me to it) From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm): "If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump." So you can be technically "suspended in midair" until your next turn (in 'reality' you are not though, since this is just a game mechanic to represent continued movement). Also note: the rule saying "your next action" implies that the OP can't do what he wanted (since he would have to take a move action before the swift action).
primemover003 03-08-07, 05:24 PM	But in the end it works out the same... so it's all good
Nom 03-08-07, 09:27 PM	The other problem with the original example is that it assumes conservation of momentum with a convenient vector. Generally, it's safer to assume that any form of dimensional travel does not conserve momentum, but instead places you "at rest" with respect to your destination environment. The weirdness caused by this assumption is significantly less than the weirdness caused if you assume conservation. Thus, regardless of turn breaks, the guy could jump and then use "dimension hop" to make up the missing distance at the end, but couldn't use it part way through and then finish the "jump". At least how I rule it.
Matthew77 03-08-07, 09:39 PM	The other problem with the original example is that it assumes conservation of momentum with a convenient vector. Generally, it's safer to assume that any form of dimensional travel does not conserve momentum, but instead places you "at rest" with respect to your destination environment. The weirdness caused by this assumption is significantly less than the weirdness caused if you assume conservation. Wow, I never thought about if dimension travel conserved momentum or not. What sorts of weirdness could it cause if you allow momentum to be conserved? Like if it was a round earth and you teleported to the other side, suddenly you would be travelling the opposite direction of the earth's spin? Any more neat examples? But if a dimension hop stops momentum and you can do it as a swift action, does that mean you could fall any distance and hop just before you hit, and not take damage? Brain hurting.. must not mix physics and magic :D
Nom 03-09-07, 01:25 AM	Wow, I never thought about if dimension travel conserved momentum or not. What sorts of weirdness could it cause if you allow momentum to be conserved? Like if it was a round earth and you teleported to the other side, suddenly you would be travelling the opposite direction of the earth's spin?Exactly. Of course, you could assume that the world is a flat plane, and ignore the problems that poses for compasses, horizons and the sun and moon. Similarly, if you teleport into or out of a fast-moving object (eg a coach), you're going to hit the ground at speed. Any more neat examples?One way around this is to assume that the spell automatically provides a vector, but does that allow the player to choose the vector? I jump into the pit, pick up falling speed, then dimension hop only a tiny distance but so I'm moving the other way. But if a dimension hop stops momentum and you can do it as a swift action, does that mean you could fall any distance and hop just before you hit, and not take damage?You can do that currently for multiple people with featherfall (and several other spells).
Matthew77 03-09-07, 09:52 AM	Similarly, if you teleport into or out of a fast-moving object (eg a coach), you're going to hit the ground at speed. Hahaha... I can just picture all the BBEG, "hmm.. how should I protect my treasure from teleporting mages... How about if I put my vault on a big spinning slab of rock and rotate it around really fast, anyone who teleports in gets splattered on the walls!" :D
sciguy98 03-09-07, 09:59 AM	The other problem with the original example is that it assumes conservation of momentum with a convenient vector. Generally, it's safer to assume that any form of dimensional travel does not conserve momentum, but instead places you "at rest" with respect to your destination environment. The weirdness caused by this assumption is significantly less than the weirdness caused if you assume conservation. lol, we ended up ruling the opposite, making a few tweaks to preserve physics. 1) Teleportation magic preserves velocity. 2) Even though it is instantaneous, teleportation implies transmission in a strait line. 3) Said magic preserves orientation relative to starting position and orientation (such that a caster couldn't "re-align" his vector to use his velocity) 4) The spell automatically corrects for global planar effects. In other words, the momentum is preserved relative to the ground, layer, or other permanent features. (This came from a discussion where I postulated with friends that certain spells are such a high level because they have built-in safeguards to keep things from failing miserbly in case of random rare events)
mvincent 03-09-07, 12:16 PM	Generally, it's safer to assume that any form of dimensional travel does not conserve momentumThat's how I used to rule also, however the 3.5 FAQ recently added: "Does an object with momentum maintain that momentum if teleported? Nothing in the rules suggests that the rules of physics wouldn’t continue to apply, so it appears that momentum is maintained. If you’re plummeting toward the ground when you cast teleport to reach a safe spot, you’d still be “falling” and would therefore take damage as appropriate to the distance you actually fell before teleporting." (note that teleportation is considered dimensional travel as it normally takes you through the astral plane)
Marcus Majarra 03-09-07, 02:49 PM	So the only solution to prevent falling damage through teleportation is to teleport yourself closer to the ground, and follow through with an immediate casting of feather fall. Still, the problem of leaping the chasm isn't resolved.
The_Ditto 03-09-07, 02:54 PM	Also note: the rule saying "your next action" implies that the OP can't do what he wanted (since he would have to take a move action before the swift action). Sort of ... that is, I can't do two swift actions (ie 1 at the end of the first round, and a 2nd at the start of the 2nd round). However, I can use my swift action at the end of the first round ... then at the beginning of round 2 I MUST use my move action first, and finish the jump ... .. and as mentioned above, momentum is conserved .. so this works just fine ... :tiphat: Neat ... :D
Marcus Majarra 03-09-07, 03:25 PM	Actually, you can't use your swift action at the end of the first round, since that would qualify as "your next action" after initiating an incomplete jump.
Frugal 03-09-07, 04:18 PM	I had a thought, in your example you pointed out the standard action wasn't used or needed. However, you can replace your standard action with a move action so I'd be inclined to say that he has movement left, there's no stopping mid-air he completes his jump in the same round.
mvincent 03-09-07, 04:23 PM	So the only solution to prevent falling damage through teleportation is to teleport yourself closer to the groundOr to teleport yourself over a more forgiving surface: trampoline, updraft, web, reverse gravity chamber, deep pit filled with whip-cream, etc. A clever gnome might do well to construct some sort of deceleration chamber like this and allow wizards to memorize the location (for a price).
FriendoftheDork 03-09-07, 06:54 PM	The ruling is directly from the SRD, which you would be wise to check before posting to avoid inserting your foot into your mouth. Because D&D is a turn-based game attempting to simulate real-time actions, the effect of making a longer jump than you have movement remaining is that you are considered to be located in mid-jump until the beginning of your next turn, when you must complete the jump before taking other actions. Consider a very slow creature with a speed of 20', but with a jump check of +25 (maybe as a result of the jump spell). This creature can easily jump 35' in one action by taking 10 after running 20', so your options are to: 1) allow the jump to let the creature move over 50' in one move action, which allows him to get around his slow movement, or 2) force him to end his turn and finish his jump next time, which means during other creatures' turns, he is effectively hanging in mid-air. The D&D rules have decided that option 2 is less abusable than option 1. Silly my for trusting my PHB.... ah well could have quoted the SRD ruling instead of just OotS (although both would be best) ;)
Marcus Majarra 03-10-07, 04:56 PM	A clever gnome might do well to construct some sort of deceleration chamber like this and allow wizards to memorize the location (for a price). Or he could be even more clever, and require that anyone wishing to teleport into the chamber carry a talisman. Each of these talismans would be single-use. Can anyone say profit?
ciryx2k 03-10-07, 06:29 PM	I don't see you got that suspended in midair thing, this is D&D not looney toons! You DO fall in D&D as well as normal, and this would happened in the first round after the jump. Basically, if you already have spent a standard action, you can't effectively jump a chasm thats longer away than speed+distance needed to be cleared. Do you even have a ruling on this, or do you just base your rules from OotS??? If you were a character or bystander in game, you wouldn't see the person stop in mid-air. This is used to address the "Okay, I can move 30ft, but if I take ten on a jump I'll get a 50, so I'll just jump everywhere instead of walk" scenario. You can not move further than your movement speed in any round end of story. If you can move 30 ft, but jump 90, you will start the jump on turn 1, continue the jump on turn 2, and finish the jump on turn 3. In game it's all fluid motion, basically with battle or whatnot going around you, you jump and fly through the air for a ludicrous amount of time and land some time later, with things having happened while you were "in flight".
calvinNhobbes 03-10-07, 06:58 PM	Yes, if your jump check is greater than your movement, it would really seem like you are more flying than jumping. Visualize the Incredible Hulk bounding around, or even certain martial arts films.
Sildatorak 03-10-07, 07:01 PM	If you're looking for a rules exploit to get the 2x swift actions needed to hop that chasm, I think that instead of picking your nose in round 1 you should ready an action to d. hop when you are 5' out from the near side of the chasm.
Frugal 03-10-07, 08:16 PM	If you're looking for a rules exploit to get the 2x swift actions needed to hop that chasm, I think that instead of picking your nose in round 1 you should ready an action to d. hop when you are 5' out from the near side of the chasm. You can't trade a standard action for a swift action. You can ready a standard, move or free action, nothing about a swift action. Even if you can ready a swift action it still doesn't allow you to take another swift (or immediate) action before your next action.
Sildatorak 03-10-07, 09:02 PM	You can't trade a standard action for a swift action. You can ready a standard, move or free action, nothing about a swift action.The PHB was written before swift actions existed. When it was written you were allowed to cast a quickened spell with a readied action. Now that quicken has been shifted to swift action status, I think it is implied that swift actions are readiable.Even if you can ready a swift action it still doesn't allow you to take another swift (or immediate) action before your next action.This does cause a problem. I also came up with some other reasons my gut reaction idea doesn't work. 1) You'd have to be in combat, which rules out taking 10. 2) The language of ready action seems to suggest that you can interrupt yourself to take an action. This is probably a good idea, otherwise everyone gets shot on the run for free.
Nom 03-10-07, 10:32 PM	That's how I used to rule also, however the 3.5 FAQ recently added ...I know. And I personally consider it a poor ruling, both from gameplay (creates too many silly corner cases) and from rules logic (why should the default consequence of doing an action that breaks the laws of physics be that physics is preserved?).
Marcus Majarra 03-10-07, 11:56 PM	If you're looking for a rules exploit to get the 2x swift actions needed to hop that chasm, I think that instead of picking your nose in round 1 you should ready an action to d. hop when you are 5' out from the near side of the chasm. There's one big problem with this idea: once you ready an action, you cannot act until the conditions for the readied actions are met. You can't ready an action, and then move/jump.
Sildatorak 03-11-07, 01:06 AM	There's one big problem with this idea: once you ready an action, you cannot act until the conditions for the readied actions are met. You can't ready an action, and then move/jump. Well I'll be switched. Reread that and it is indeed "any time before your next action" rather than "any time before your next turn."
Ramses III 03-11-07, 01:51 AM	If you ready an action, then the readied action must be the next thing you do -- you can't ready an action, then move, then take the readied action. You'd have to move first.
FriendoftheDork 03-11-07, 08:25 PM	If you ready an action, then the readied action must be the next thing you do -- you can't ready an action, then move, then take the readied action. You'd have to move first. Actually, you can make a 5' step before taking the readied action (as long as that's the only movement you make that round).
The_Ditto 03-12-07, 09:20 AM	I had a thought, in your example you pointed out the standard action wasn't used or needed. However, you can replace your standard action with a move action so I'd be inclined to say that he has movement left, there's no stopping mid-air he completes his jump in the same round. More practical example then: Round 1: Standard Action: Cast spell: Jump. Move Action: move 25 ft., start jump ... Point is ... you use the standard action up ... somehow it doesn't matter how .. (ergo "pick nose" ...) ;) A clever gnome might do well to construct some sort of deceleration chamber like this and allow wizards to memorize the location (for a price). I don't see this as being cost effective for (most) casters ... 5th level spell (t-port) + extra cost ... vs 1st level spell (feather fall) hmmm ... :thinks:
mvincent 03-12-07, 12:01 PM	I know. And I personally consider it a poor ruling, both from gameplay (creates too many silly corner cases) and from rules logic (why should the default consequence of doing an action that breaks the laws of physics be that physics is preserved?).It was discussed before. Some believed that removing all relational momentum could create more weird logic issues than it solved (example: do your ioun stones stop? etc.). While I disliked the ruling initially, I'm ok with it now: either way could work fine, so having an answer is good. I think this even corresponds to how teleport worked in previous editions of AD&D (not sure though). Besides: magic usually works how it is believed to work, rather than in a way that (scientifically) makes sense.
mvincent 03-12-07, 12:14 PM	I don't see this as being cost effective for (most) casters ... 5th level spell (t-port) + extra cost ... vs 1st level spell (feather fall)Agreed, but this was for emergencies, like when you don't have feather fall prepared, have already cast it, are about to fall into acid, have dragon on your tail, etc. A deceleration chamber is also good with Word of Recall (for clerics or druids... who don't have access to the feather fall spell).
The_Ditto 03-12-07, 01:35 PM	Agreed, but this was for emergencies, like when you don't have feather fall prepared, have already cast it, are about to fall into acid, have dragon on your tail, etc. A deceleration chamber is also good with Word of Recall (for clerics or druids... who don't have access to the feather fall spell). Point ... ;)