Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pres_man 02-27-07, 03:26 PM	Ok, let us say my character wanted to use combat expertise and fighting defensively (I believe you can do both at the same time, just stack the bonuses and penalties). Let us also say, I don't want to attack on my turn, but I want the option to take any AoO. Could I do that if I sacrifice a standard action, or can you only do that when you actually attack? If I have to attack, could I say, "I attack the darkness"?
Sildatorak 02-27-07, 03:41 PM	You have to take the "attack" standard action to use fighting defensively or combat expertise (or both), but you don't actually have to take the attack that you are entitled to with the action. If you want a boost to AC and the potential to make a heavily penalized AoO, spend that standard action with -9 to attack for +7 (or 8 with enough tumble) to AC.
pres_man 02-27-07, 04:09 PM	Ok, thanks. That is what I figured, but some people like to claim, "No you have to attack something." Which sucks if there doesn't happen to be anything close to you or you want to be cautious.
primemover003 02-27-07, 05:18 PM	It's more about burning the Standard Action than the attack...
Lord Nedd 02-27-07, 11:59 PM	Ok, let us say my character wanted to use combat expertise and fighting defensively (I believe you can do both at the same time, just stack the bonuses and penalties). Let us also say, I don't want to attack on my turn, but I want the option to take any AoO. Could I do that if I sacrifice a standard action, or can you only do that when you actually attack? If I have to attack, could I say, "I attack the darkness"? Wow. On the 3e FAQ on page 21, it specifically states that you can use both combat expertise and fighting defensively at the same time. Good bloody luck hitting anything, but hay, you won't be hit! Learning something new every day! -LN
Empiro 02-28-07, 12:06 AM	As one of my friends mentioned, this is a great way for a rogue to get into position. You only get one attack the round you tumble behind the guy, and you certainly don't want to be torn to shreds by that big bad monster's full attack next round. After that monster misses you (or decides to attack someone else), you drop both and make your full-sneak attack to kill your opponent in one round. It's also a great way for rogues facing critical-immune enemies to help by providing a flanking bonus and also use Aid Another actions to help the primary fighters.
Marcus Majarra 02-28-07, 12:37 AM	This kind of tactic actually works wonders for some characters, such as high-level Duelists.
Sildatorak 02-28-07, 10:58 AM	This kind of tactic actually works wonders for some characters, such as high-level Duelists.Yeah, had an NPC swashbuckler/fighter/duelist (total level around 12 or so) who had an AC in the 40's. Had he been built with a point buy and PC wealth it would have been even higher.
CaoSlayer 02-28-07, 11:28 AM	This kind of tactic actually works wonders for some characters, such as high-level Duelists. Until the dm realizes that can trip/disarm you with ease.
Downtym 02-28-07, 12:14 PM	Until the dm realizes that can trip/disarm you with ease. Disarm? Yes. Trip? No. Also, the +to AC from Expertise/fighting defensive counts against touch attacks as its a dodge bonus type - not that this matters, if you regularly miss a touch attack whatever you're fighting is going to annihilate you. To be fair, getting a massive +to Hit is fairly easy if you have a good mix of buffing in the parties. Of course if your arcane caster prefers to exclusively pew-pew the bad guys rather than tossing out an occasional buff, you're going to be in trouble with this tactic. So, your mileage may vary.
Lilinthra 02-28-07, 12:57 PM	Disarm? Yes. Trip? No. Also, the +to AC from Expertise/fighting defensive counts against touch attacks as its a dodge bonus type - not that this matters, if you regularly miss a touch attack whatever you're fighting is going to annihilate you. Ah, but if you disarm a high-level duelist first, their regular & touch AC goes down considerably.
Downtym 02-28-07, 02:11 PM	Ah, but if you disarm a high-level duelist first, their regular & touch AC goes down considerably. As I've never played or seen a seen a duelist played, what's the ruling on a duelist using a Spiked Gauntlet? I'd have to say that it's against the spirit of the class and yet hilarious at the same time. Also, there's a certain tactical advantage to forcing your opponent to waste an attack to disarm. Unless you're fighting a monk - in which case you've been grappled, disarmed, tripped, stripped naked, pummeled, and pinned - attacks are a precious commodity and forcing an opponent to spend one on a suboptimal choice like disarming someone with backup weapons is a Good Idea (TM). Further, Quick Draw would allow you to regain your Int to Dex bonus on your round. Also, I wouldn't imagine many duelists going for the full 30 Int required to get the +10 AC since they have to worry about other stats as well - Dex, Con, and Str come to mind immediately. Forgoing that, locked gauntlets are always an option. In my experience being disarmed happens no matter what you do to try to make it better. For "Most" opponents as CR increases there is an appropriate size increases. Obviously, if your DM has a penchant for using Medium Sized NPC's, your mileage will vary. But if you were to just go straight out of the MM, you're looking at fighting things that get progressively larger over time. For every step over your size category, you're looking at a 20% difference (give or take) when comparing equivalent weapons. Assuming the larger opponent uses a two-handed weapon, that's another 20% variance. If you're using a light weapon, another 20%. Also, larger creatures generally have higher (normalized) strengths and higher attack bonuses, so you're looking at starting on uneven ground from the start anyway. So, sure, the -9 (-45%) from full expertise plus fighting defensively is a huge minus to disarm and can be disastrous, but it is also a good way to force your opponent to throw one attack whose advantage is probably a -1 to -5 to your AC (Assuming you're not a 22 Str, 22 Con, 40 Dex, 30 Int Duelist). Not to mention that if your opponent does not have imp. Disarm, he's looking at either having to shift positions to disarm you - to avoid the AOO - or taking the risk of losing the attack entirely due to the AOO.
Lilinthra 02-28-07, 02:50 PM	All good points, and I should have pointed out that my suggestion was more for group adversary tactics against a duelist instead of a single adversary.
Downtym 02-28-07, 03:40 PM	All good points, and I should have pointed out that my suggestion was more for group adversary tactics against a duelist instead of a single adversary. I wasn't disagreeing, really. Just more of musing on the utility of disarm vis-a-vis Duelists. In general, disarm is a GOOD IDEA (TM) if your side outnumbers or has equivalent numbers against the opposing side and your attack bonus plus situational bonuses allows for a 40% to 50% chance of success. There are, of course, other advantages to disarming your opponent - such as he will most likely lose his most favored weapon (Assuming your opponent isn't some weirdo that carries around his 2nd or 3rd tier weapon for show and only pulls out his favored weapon when he feels like messing with you) for the rest of the fight. And if your opponent lacks backup weapons, that move action and provoked AOO to pickup the object can be the difference between getting full attacked every round and effectively casting "Slow" on your opponent. To be fair, special attacks like Grapple, Sunder, Disarm, or Trip are amazingly powerful tools when your side outnumbers the opposing side. All of them are, essentially, resource denial moves and in the case that your side outnumbers the opponents, it's fairly easy to lockdown an opponent and prevent him from even making any moves.
Marcus Majarra 03-01-07, 08:13 PM	I just thought of a good way the defensive duelist can avoid enemy disarms without Improved Disarm: Evasive Reflexes. Every time he attempts to disarm you, you get an attack of opportunity, which you can use to move 5 feet away (usually beyond reach). There's also the locked gauntlet option if you like carrying your rapier around in your hand all the time.