Kamikaze jump ! Bringing down flying creature by jumping on it. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kamikaze jump ! Bringing down flying creature by jumping on it. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
duboisjf
06-04-07, 03:58 PM How would you treat that :

A PC is holding on a wall 25 feet from the floor. He gets ready to jump onto any creature right below. He wants to bring down the creature to the ground.

Is it a (vertical) bull rush ?
Is it a grapple and is it only the addtional weight that would brings down the flying creature ?
Is there a better way to treat this ?

What modifier would apply ?

What about falling damage ?

Help me please because this action could change everything... A second PC is hiding down there with a sneak attack ready for the flying creature.
lint trap
06-04-07, 04:06 PM Forgetting RAW for a minute, here's how I'd freehand it:

The player makes a charge (by jumping) and attempts to grapple the flier. If he fails, he falls alone. If he succeeds, add the character's weight to the flying creature's encumberance. If this moves him to a heavy load, the creature falls. Otherwise, just hope the jumper has a light weapon handy.
Ebonarc
06-04-07, 08:19 PM lint trap has the right idea, but I would add one thing for this tactic. The jumper should take falling damage.

It would not apply in this case based on my reasoning. First, he is willingly jumping, not falling, so the fall is treated as 10 feet shorter, as per RAW. This next part is me ruling on the fly: The fall would again be treated as 10 feet shorter because the jumper is landing on a (relatively) soft creature as opposed to hard ground. Of course, if the character tries this on an iron or stone golem, that last reduction would no longer apply:D .

The two reductions bring the effective distance in the situation you describe to less than 10 feet, so the jumper would take no damage for the jump. If they did it from 30 feet or up, or that golem I mentioned was the target, however, they would.
weasel0
06-04-07, 10:42 PM ....so the fall is treated as 10 feet shorter, as per RAW. This next part is me ruling on the fly: The fall would again be treated as 10 feet shorter because the jumper is landing on a (relatively) soft creature as opposed to hard ground.....

Even the jump requires a check to reduce by 10'.
Maybe, it's soft(ish). It could be a dragon. Iron tough scales arn't soft. Though you could argue that the sudden weight(and speed) moves the creature(as a bull rush) and the movement cause by the bull rush, cushions the distance fell by a 1:1 or whatever you feel ratio.
Ebonarc
06-05-07, 11:48 AM Even the jump requires a check to reduce by 10'.
Maybe, it's soft(ish). It could be a dragon. Iron tough scales arn't soft. Though you could argue that the sudden weight(and speed) moves the creature(as a bull rush) and the movement cause by the bull rush, cushions the distance fell by a 1:1 or whatever you feel ratio.

I had forgotten that that requires a check. Nice catch.

On further thought, I am not sure the softness reduction I discussed is a wise rule to impose. The golem example I brought up was an example of targets composed of hard materials, but then I thought about is more.

A dragon would indeed merit the same falling damage. An ooze probably wouldn't. I didn't think a humanoid would, but then I thought, "What if they are wearing armor?" Full plate is not soft, after all.

I thought about ruling that the falling damage is reduced by 10 feet if the object hardness of the target, or possibly its natural armor bonus, fell below a certain limit. But that sounded like a pain-in-the-neck rule for a DM to have to adjudicate.

I suppose that, barring very specific circumstances, like landing on a Gelatinous Cube (which would carry its own penalties anyway), the falling damage should remain, and the reduction I earlier proposed should not be used.
_____________________________________
As for adjudicating the action in general, here is how, on further thought, I would do it:

Treat it as a vertical bull rush, as you suggested in the original post. Give the attacker the standard +2 bonus on the Strength check for charging. I would also give the attacker the +1 bonus for being on higher ground, although this normally applies only to attack rolls.

Speaking of which, I would actually force an action before the bull rush starts: Have the attacker make a touch attack roll, with both of the above bonuses, to see if he/she hits the target when he/she jumps. If the attacker hits the targets touch AC, they move into bull rush. If the bull rush succeeds, the target hits the ground, and they both take falling damage (the attacker can reduce it by 10 feet if he/she succeeds on the jump check weasel0 mentioned. If the touch attack roll OR the bull rush fail, the target remains where it is, and the attacker takes falling damage.
wrecan
06-05-07, 01:16 PM Part of this depends on the means by which the flier is flying. Let's imagine two actors. The "Flier", which is the target, and the "Jumper", who we'll assume has no independent means to fly.

The Set Up:
The Jumper has a readied action to jump onto any creature passing beneath. The Flier passes beneath.

Before action initiates, the Flier should get a chance to spot the Jumper. The Flier's Spot check (modified by -1 per 10' of distance, and by -5 if otherwise distracted) is opposed by the Jumper's Hide check (assuming the wall provides the Jumper with some cover or concealment). If the Flier Spots the Jumper, the Flier can alter his movement so as not to avoid the Jumper. (In which case, the Jumper may need to make a standing jump off the wall to cover the horizontal distance between them.) If the Flier Spots the Jumper but chooses not to avoid, continue normally (but the Flier is not considered flatfooted). If the Flier fails to Spot the Jumper, the Jumper is considered flatfooted.

Step One: The Jump.
The Jumper is makes a Jump check with a DC 15. This reduces the effective distance of his jump by 10'.

The Jumper then must initiate a grapple with the Flier with a successful touch attack on the flier. The Flier gets an AoO against the Jumper (unless the Jumper has Improved Grapple). If the touch attack fails, the Jumper missed the Flier and falls to the ground (for falling damage).

Step Two: The Fall
Assuming the touch attack succeeds, the parties are grappling. However, the fall still causes damage. The Jumper takes damage based on the distance fallen, less 10' for a successful Jump check and less 10' is the Flier is considered soft. I personally consider a target "soft" if it has a DR, Hardness, Armor bonus or Natural Armor bonus of less than 5 (these numbers do not stack -- a creature with DR 4, +4 Armor bonus and +4 Natural Armor bonus is still a soft target).

The Flier also takes damage. First, he takes damage from the grapple (the Jumper's unarmed damage attack). Second, the Flier takes damage from the Jumper as if the Jumper were a Falling Object, based on the distance fallen and the weight of the Jumper (including his gear). Do not reduce the effective distance by ten simply because the Jumper made a Jump check. However, although it isn't specified, I would reduce the effective distance by ten if the Jumper would be considered "soft" by having neither DR, Harness, Armor bonus or Natural Armor bonus of five or greater.

Step Three: The Weight
Once the fall is calculated, add the Jumper's weight (including gear) to the Flier's encumberance. If this new weight exceeds the flier's light load, the Flier cannot sustain this new encumberance, unless it is flying due to a spell. A character floating from a Fly or Overland Flight spell may remain aloft unless the new weight exceeds a heavy load. A character floating from a Levitate spell may remain aloft unless the new weight (including the Flier's weight) exceeds 100 lbs./caster level. A character floating from Telekinesis may remain aloft unless the new weight (including the Flier's weight) exceeds 25 lbs./level (max. 375 lbs.)

If the Flier falls, both the Flier and Jumper take falling damage equal to the distance fallen. There are no reductions to this distance (unless the landing sight would be considered "soft").

Step Four: Mid-Air Grappling
If the Flier can remain aloft, in future rounds, there are plenty of options.

First, to move normally, the Flier will have to make a successful grapple check against the Jumper. Otherwise, they will fall.

If the Flier flies due to an item, the Jumper may try to disarm the Flier per the grapple rules, causing them to fall, despite a successful grapple check by the Flier.

If the Flier flies due to wings, the Jumper may try to pin the wings per the grapple rules, causing them to fall, despite a successful grapple check by the Flier.

The Flier may try to escape the Grapple altogether, causing the Jumper to fall. If the Flier would be a suitable mount (Hippogriff or Pegasus, for example), and the Jumper has a Ride bonus of +5 or greater, I would allow the Jumper to add a Ride bonus (with a -5 bareback riding penalty) to this check. If the Jumper has a Ride bonus of +10 or greater, I would allow the Jumper to add his Ride bonus to the opposed roll, even if the Flier is unsuitable for a mount.

The Flier may try to dive into the ground as a move action. I would treat this as a double move into the ground. The Flier would have to succeed on an opposed grapple check to manage this. Calculate falling damage and add double the Flier's fly speed to accomodate the acceleration. Both the Flier and the Jumper take this damage.

If the Flier has an Int of 1 or 2, allow the Jumper to "push" the animal to use it as a mount with a successful Handle Animal check of 25 (30 if the Flier is not of the Animal Type.) A new push must be made every round.

If the Flier has an Int of 3 or higher, allow the Jumper to use Intimidate to convince the Flier to stop resisting the Grappler. The attempt should only be allowed once, with no retries. (Do not allow Diplomacy during combat.) The Intimidate lasts per the Intimidate rules.
mvincent
06-05-07, 04:12 PM From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a):
"Aerial grappling can prove hazardous to attacker and defender alike. Except where noted here, a grappling attack in the air works just like grappling on the ground.

Who Is Flying and Who Is Held: If you have a minimum forward speed or if you rely on wings or other appendages to stay aloft, you cannot fly if another creature has a hold on you (but see Just Hanging On, below). An attacker that establishes a hold against you must be able to carry your weight or you both fall. In the course of an aerial grapple, the combatant who must hold everyone's weight can change from turn to turn. The last creature to establish a hold must be able to keep everyone involved in the grapple aloft or everyone falls."

The article contains further details if desired.
Kouk
06-06-07, 03:32 AM Yeah, if you can get his weight above Light, and/or grapple his wings he will fall.

Assuming it has wings and is not somehow otherwise special.
duboisjf
06-06-07, 08:02 AM From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a):
...

The article contains further details if desired.

Great stuff ! Thank you for this link !

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
duboisjf 06-04-07, 03:58 PM	How would you treat that : A PC is holding on a wall 25 feet from the floor. He gets ready to jump onto any creature right below. He wants to bring down the creature to the ground. Is it a (vertical) bull rush ? Is it a grapple and is it only the addtional weight that would brings down the flying creature ? Is there a better way to treat this ? What modifier would apply ? What about falling damage ? Help me please because this action could change everything... A second PC is hiding down there with a sneak attack ready for the flying creature.
lint trap 06-04-07, 04:06 PM	Forgetting RAW for a minute, here's how I'd freehand it: The player makes a charge (by jumping) and attempts to grapple the flier. If he fails, he falls alone. If he succeeds, add the character's weight to the flying creature's encumberance. If this moves him to a heavy load, the creature falls. Otherwise, just hope the jumper has a light weapon handy.
Ebonarc 06-04-07, 08:19 PM	lint trap has the right idea, but I would add one thing for this tactic. The jumper should take falling damage. It would not apply in this case based on my reasoning. First, he is willingly jumping, not falling, so the fall is treated as 10 feet shorter, as per RAW. This next part is me ruling on the fly: The fall would again be treated as 10 feet shorter because the jumper is landing on a (relatively) soft creature as opposed to hard ground. Of course, if the character tries this on an iron or stone golem, that last reduction would no longer apply:D . The two reductions bring the effective distance in the situation you describe to less than 10 feet, so the jumper would take no damage for the jump. If they did it from 30 feet or up, or that golem I mentioned was the target, however, they would.
weasel0 06-04-07, 10:42 PM	....so the fall is treated as 10 feet shorter, as per RAW. This next part is me ruling on the fly: The fall would again be treated as 10 feet shorter because the jumper is landing on a (relatively) soft creature as opposed to hard ground..... Even the jump requires a check to reduce by 10'. Maybe, it's soft(ish). It could be a dragon. Iron tough scales arn't soft. Though you could argue that the sudden weight(and speed) moves the creature(as a bull rush) and the movement cause by the bull rush, cushions the distance fell by a 1:1 or whatever you feel ratio.
Ebonarc 06-05-07, 11:48 AM	Even the jump requires a check to reduce by 10'. Maybe, it's soft(ish). It could be a dragon. Iron tough scales arn't soft. Though you could argue that the sudden weight(and speed) moves the creature(as a bull rush) and the movement cause by the bull rush, cushions the distance fell by a 1:1 or whatever you feel ratio. I had forgotten that that requires a check. Nice catch. On further thought, I am not sure the softness reduction I discussed is a wise rule to impose. The golem example I brought up was an example of targets composed of hard materials, but then I thought about is more. A dragon would indeed merit the same falling damage. An ooze probably wouldn't. I didn't think a humanoid would, but then I thought, "What if they are wearing armor?" Full plate is not soft, after all. I thought about ruling that the falling damage is reduced by 10 feet if the object hardness of the target, or possibly its natural armor bonus, fell below a certain limit. But that sounded like a pain-in-the-neck rule for a DM to have to adjudicate. I suppose that, barring very specific circumstances, like landing on a Gelatinous Cube (which would carry its own penalties anyway), the falling damage should remain, and the reduction I earlier proposed should not be used. _____________________________________ As for adjudicating the action in general, here is how, on further thought, I would do it: Treat it as a vertical bull rush, as you suggested in the original post. Give the attacker the standard +2 bonus on the Strength check for charging. I would also give the attacker the +1 bonus for being on higher ground, although this normally applies only to attack rolls. Speaking of which, I would actually force an action before the bull rush starts: Have the attacker make a touch attack roll, with both of the above bonuses, to see if he/she hits the target when he/she jumps. If the attacker hits the targets touch AC, they move into bull rush. If the bull rush succeeds, the target hits the ground, and they both take falling damage (the attacker can reduce it by 10 feet if he/she succeeds on the jump check weasel0 mentioned. If the touch attack roll OR the bull rush fail, the target remains where it is, and the attacker takes falling damage.
wrecan 06-05-07, 01:16 PM	Part of this depends on the means by which the flier is flying. Let's imagine two actors. The "Flier", which is the target, and the "Jumper", who we'll assume has no independent means to fly. The Set Up: The Jumper has a readied action to jump onto any creature passing beneath. The Flier passes beneath. Before action initiates, the Flier should get a chance to spot the Jumper. The Flier's Spot check (modified by -1 per 10' of distance, and by -5 if otherwise distracted) is opposed by the Jumper's Hide check (assuming the wall provides the Jumper with some cover or concealment). If the Flier Spots the Jumper, the Flier can alter his movement so as not to avoid the Jumper. (In which case, the Jumper may need to make a standing jump off the wall to cover the horizontal distance between them.) If the Flier Spots the Jumper but chooses not to avoid, continue normally (but the Flier is not considered flatfooted). If the Flier fails to Spot the Jumper, the Jumper is considered flatfooted. Step One: The Jump. The Jumper is makes a Jump check with a DC 15. This reduces the effective distance of his jump by 10'. The Jumper then must initiate a grapple with the Flier with a successful touch attack on the flier. The Flier gets an AoO against the Jumper (unless the Jumper has Improved Grapple). If the touch attack fails, the Jumper missed the Flier and falls to the ground (for falling damage). Step Two: The Fall Assuming the touch attack succeeds, the parties are grappling. However, the fall still causes damage. The Jumper takes damage based on the distance fallen, less 10' for a successful Jump check and less 10' is the Flier is considered soft. I personally consider a target "soft" if it has a DR, Hardness, Armor bonus or Natural Armor bonus of less than 5 (these numbers do not stack -- a creature with DR 4, +4 Armor bonus and +4 Natural Armor bonus is still a soft target). The Flier also takes damage. First, he takes damage from the grapple (the Jumper's unarmed damage attack). Second, the Flier takes damage from the Jumper as if the Jumper were a Falling Object, based on the distance fallen and the weight of the Jumper (including his gear). Do not reduce the effective distance by ten simply because the Jumper made a Jump check. However, although it isn't specified, I would reduce the effective distance by ten if the Jumper would be considered "soft" by having neither DR, Harness, Armor bonus or Natural Armor bonus of five or greater. Step Three: The Weight Once the fall is calculated, add the Jumper's weight (including gear) to the Flier's encumberance. If this new weight exceeds the flier's light load, the Flier cannot sustain this new encumberance, unless it is flying due to a spell. A character floating from a Fly or Overland Flight spell may remain aloft unless the new weight exceeds a heavy load. A character floating from a Levitate spell may remain aloft unless the new weight (including the Flier's weight) exceeds 100 lbs./caster level. A character floating from Telekinesis may remain aloft unless the new weight (including the Flier's weight) exceeds 25 lbs./level (max. 375 lbs.) If the Flier falls, both the Flier and Jumper take falling damage equal to the distance fallen. There are no reductions to this distance (unless the landing sight would be considered "soft"). Step Four: Mid-Air Grappling If the Flier can remain aloft, in future rounds, there are plenty of options. First, to move normally, the Flier will have to make a successful grapple check against the Jumper. Otherwise, they will fall. If the Flier flies due to an item, the Jumper may try to disarm the Flier per the grapple rules, causing them to fall, despite a successful grapple check by the Flier. If the Flier flies due to wings, the Jumper may try to pin the wings per the grapple rules, causing them to fall, despite a successful grapple check by the Flier. The Flier may try to escape the Grapple altogether, causing the Jumper to fall. If the Flier would be a suitable mount (Hippogriff or Pegasus, for example), and the Jumper has a Ride bonus of +5 or greater, I would allow the Jumper to add a Ride bonus (with a -5 bareback riding penalty) to this check. If the Jumper has a Ride bonus of +10 or greater, I would allow the Jumper to add his Ride bonus to the opposed roll, even if the Flier is unsuitable for a mount. The Flier may try to dive into the ground as a move action. I would treat this as a double move into the ground. The Flier would have to succeed on an opposed grapple check to manage this. Calculate falling damage and add double the Flier's fly speed to accomodate the acceleration. Both the Flier and the Jumper take this damage. If the Flier has an Int of 1 or 2, allow the Jumper to "push" the animal to use it as a mount with a successful Handle Animal check of 25 (30 if the Flier is not of the Animal Type.) A new push must be made every round. If the Flier has an Int of 3 or higher, allow the Jumper to use Intimidate to convince the Flier to stop resisting the Grappler. The attempt should only be allowed once, with no retries. (Do not allow Diplomacy during combat.) The Intimidate lasts per the Intimidate rules.
mvincent 06-05-07, 04:12 PM	From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a): "Aerial grappling can prove hazardous to attacker and defender alike. Except where noted here, a grappling attack in the air works just like grappling on the ground. Who Is Flying and Who Is Held: If you have a minimum forward speed or if you rely on wings or other appendages to stay aloft, you cannot fly if another creature has a hold on you (but see Just Hanging On, below). An attacker that establishes a hold against you must be able to carry your weight or you both fall. In the course of an aerial grapple, the combatant who must hold everyone's weight can change from turn to turn. The last creature to establish a hold must be able to keep everyone involved in the grapple aloft or everyone falls." The article contains further details if desired.
Kouk 06-06-07, 03:32 AM	Yeah, if you can get his weight above Light, and/or grapple his wings he will fall. Assuming it has wings and is not somehow otherwise special.
duboisjf 06-06-07, 08:02 AM	From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a): ... The article contains further details if desired. Great stuff ! Thank you for this link !