Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Bonez 08-06-07, 03:22 PM	I arranged an encounter with a dragon it obviously wasnt a CR of 20 but the party blew through the encounter with ease. The problem I encountered was the Sorcerer in the party immobilized the dragon with ease. I must have missed something in one of the guides.:confused: The way this occured was first the sorcerer cast Assay Spell Resistance then cast a Shivering Touch Spell from the Frostburn guide to reduce the dragons dexterity 3d6 with no save only spell resistance applies. He over came the spell resistance thanks to the assay spell resistance and since its a touch attack the dragon has very little armor class against it so he hit rolled a 3d6 and got exactly 10. Which brought the dragons armor class down to 0 rendering him helpless. The monk assassin in my party decided he wanted to let the dragon have it with a bunch of sneak attacks I decided that he could not reach the vitals and didnt allow it basically to give me time to think and I came up with jack as they tore the dragon to pieces. That is where my earlier post comes in to play I figured i could solve this mass disaster of an encounter and all the problems the in with a series of posts here I hope I didnt violate any rules by posting multiple times in one day. So did I miss something or did my players discover a way to slay dragons with ease because both spells that they used are available to clerics, sorcerers, wizards, and druids if a DM such as my self felt inclined to do. Which I might add was foolish I am running a party of characters from the frost fell with prevaliant cold magic and many dragons basically the only dragons that i can run now are Silver and White dragons because they are immune to Shivering Touch.:confused:
orionm42 08-06-07, 03:50 PM	I don't have the frostburn book, but I have heard the shivering touch spell is broken as written because it does not specify a minimum dexterity score. In other words, the description of ray of enfeeblement says the spell cannot drop the target's strength below 1. If shivering touch does not have that same qualifier for the dexterity penalty (damage?), it's broken because of your exact example. Was this ever errata'ed?
bobothechimp 08-06-07, 04:01 PM	Your party fought intelligently. You threw a dragon at them as if it were an ogre, some dumb beatstick, charging blindly into combat. Look at the description of how dragons act in combat. Notice how it mentions them fighting intelligently, flying, staying out of reach, and using ranged attacks, such as their breath weapon? Try doing that.
olshanski_home 08-06-07, 05:09 PM	Shivering touch was not errata'd. The spell was designed for an arctic campaign, in which 90% of opponents would have immunity to cold damage... in that type of campaign world, the spell is not broken. If you are the DM, and you are not running an arctic campaign, you should not allow that spell without heavy modifications. I would guess that the introduction to "Frostburn" gives some advice about how the book is to be used, and it probably says it is for arctic campaigns.
PenderGrass 08-06-07, 05:21 PM	I arranged an encounter with a dragon it obviously wasnt a CR of 20.... Why do you state that it was a CR20 dragon then? Your self-admitted over-exaggeration reduces any legitimacy that you may have wanted. :dragon: ****
Empiro 08-06-07, 05:51 PM	Shivering Touch is widely considered to be overpowered/broken. A 3rd level spell that can basically kill 1/2 of all monsters without a save is not right (even if it's useless against the other 1/2 of monsters). I recommend taking the spell out of the game and asking your player to pick another 3rd level spell. Assay Spell Resistence is also something you'll want to watch out for.
Morwen 08-06-07, 09:32 PM	One way for Dragons to overcome touch spells is with the scintillating scales spell (2nd level, from Spell Compendium).
deathbane 08-06-07, 09:39 PM	I arranged an encounter with a dragon it obviously wasnt a CR of 20 but the party blew through the encounter with ease. The problem I encountered was the Sorcerer in the party immobilized the dragon with ease. I must have missed something in one of the guides.:confused: The way this occured was first the sorcerer cast Assay Spell Resistance then cast a Shivering Touch Spell from the Frostburn guide to reduce the dragons dexterity 3d6 with no save only spell resistance applies. He over came the spell resistance thanks to the assay spell resistance and since its a touch attack the dragon has very little armor class against it so he hit rolled a 3d6 and got exactly 10. Which brought the dragons armor class down to 0 rendering him helpless. The monk assassin in my party decided he wanted to let the dragon have it with a bunch of sneak attacks I decided that he could not reach the vitals and didnt allow it basically to give me time to think and I came up with jack as they tore the dragon to pieces. That is where my earlier post comes in to play I figured i could solve this mass disaster of an encounter and all the problems the in with a series of posts here I hope I didnt violate any rules by posting multiple times in one day. So did I miss something or did my players discover a way to slay dragons with ease because both spells that they used are available to clerics, sorcerers, wizards, and druids if a DM such as my self felt inclined to do. Which I might add was foolish I am running a party of characters from the frost fell with prevaliant cold magic and many dragons basically the only dragons that i can run now are Silver and White dragons because they are immune to Shivering Touch.:confused: What is the real CR of the dragon. better yet just tell me what dragon it was and maybe you can get a real answer if this is a real post?
Mock26 08-06-07, 09:43 PM	The dragon should have first attacked the group outside of its lair, where it could fly around and assault the group from the air with breath weapon, with dropping things on the group, with the ordering of minions against the group. Remember that dragons are supposed to be tough. As such, you need to try to get into the dragon's mind and attack as if you were a dragon. (I also think that this should be done for all monsters.) As such, a dragon would try to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, and he would try to do everything in his power to NOT be caught in his lair by adventurers. My personal philosophy is that dragons, not adventurers, are the top of the food chain on the prime material plane. As such, no killing of a dragon should ever be easy.
Marcus Majarra 08-07-07, 12:23 AM	While I'm normally a good supporter of the RAW, shivering touch and greater shivering touch should either be banned or changed to ability penalties (with a minimum Dex of 1). In any case, the dragon shouldn't have closed into melee with the humanoid prey before taking out the dangerous ones with its breath weapon or grappling tactics (i.e. target the casters first). A CR20 dragon shouldn't have too much trouble doing this with either spells or its breath weapon.
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-07-07, 12:28 AM	Shivering Touch is crazy broken. Any sane DM puts a big red X through that spell as soon as he reads it.
Nephlite 08-07-07, 12:42 AM	Shivering touch was not errata'd. The spell was designed for an arctic campaign, in which 90% of opponents would have immunity to cold damage... in that type of campaign world, the spell is not broken. If you are the DM, and you are not running an arctic campaign, you should not allow that spell without heavy modifications. I would guess that the introduction to "Frostburn" gives some advice about how the book is to be used, and it probably says it is for arctic campaigns. Shivering Touch works on creatures immune to Cold. Yes, it is that good. It doesn't deal cold damage. So even in Frostburn it is awesome.
runestar 08-07-07, 12:50 AM	Shivering Touch works on creatures immune to Cold. Yes, it is that good. It doesn't deal cold damage. So even in Frostburn it is awesome. Doesn't the spell say something about not working on creatures with the cold subtype?
Salla 08-07-07, 01:13 AM	Looking at this, I'm thinking this should have happened ... 1. Sorcerer casts Assay Resistance. 1a. Dragon makes spellcraft check, IDs spell. Uses brain to realize that the sorcerer is obviously getting ready to cast a 'money' spell. 2. Dragon mauls sorcerer, or perhaps grapples him and flies off with him with intent to make a snack of him later. :)
deathbane 08-07-07, 01:24 AM	Looking at this, I'm thinking this should have happened ... 1. Sorcerer casts Assay Resistance. 1a. Dragon makes spellcraft check, IDs spell. Uses brain to realize that the sorcerer is obviously getting ready to cast a 'money' spell. 2. Dragon mauls sorcerer, or perhaps grapples him and flies off with him with intent to make a snack of him later. :) assay resistance is a swift action. so the dragon did not get a chance if he lost initiative.
Salla 08-07-07, 01:37 AM	assay resistance is a swift action. so the dragon did not get a chance if he lost initiative. Ah. I was unfamiliar with the spell, assumed it was a Standard.
Marcus Majarra 08-07-07, 10:01 AM	assay resistance is a swift action. so the dragon did not get a chance if he lost initiative. Since when is identifying a spell as it is being cast impossible for swift action spells? PHB82 states that this use of Spellcraft is no action at all.
Morwen 08-07-07, 10:36 AM	Since when is identifying a spell as it is being cast impossible for swift action spells? PHB82 states that this use of Spellcraft is no action at all. He didn't say he couldn't identify the spell. He said the Dragon wouldn't have been able to spend his turn mauling the spellcaster, since the second spell also went off in the same turn :)
olshanski_home 08-07-07, 11:05 AM	Shivering Touch works on creatures immune to Cold. Yes, it is that good. It doesn't deal cold damage. So even in Frostburn it is awesome. Sorry, my poor use of semantics. Shivering touch does not work on creatures with the COLD subtype, which is a subeset of creatures that are immune to cold. My initial statement that the spell was designed for arctic settings in which 90% of encountered creatures have the cold subtype stands. Compare this spell to Poison, which is also a 3rd level spell and does 3d6 points of ability damage... but poison allows a saving throw and shivering touch does not.
wingspan99 08-07-07, 11:53 AM	Poison does 1d10 twice, but allows two saves - one immediately, and one after a minute - AND it's 4th level for clerics. Clearly, Shivering Touch is broken. Similar spells such as Ray of Clumsiness and Ray of Enfeeblement cap the ability score loss at a min. of 1. Despite the fact that they are 1st level, they still set a benchmark.
Pegasos989 08-07-07, 12:36 PM	I disagree that spell is balanced by it being un-efficient against most opponents in the setting it was designed to. A spell that can beat opponents with no save is broken. If it is broken against 10% of opponents and 90% are immune, it has been designed possibly even worse! But yeah, even with the cap it would be broken, IMHO. ("Oh, the opponent now has 1 dexterity? Well, I cast reach spelled touch of fatigue. Fatigue lowers dex by 2."... Though the same problem is with ray of enfeeblement, though RoE does a lot less STR PENALTY and it can be argued - even if I do not agree with it - that RoE being an ongoing penalty, it is always applied last so even if it reduces STR to 1 and then something else reduces it by two, STR is 1...) Without the cap, the spell should just be banned.
Teh_username 08-07-07, 12:52 PM	Well, at the very least, remember that they didn't gain any XP for it. :D
Marcus Majarra 08-07-07, 01:42 PM	I disagree that spell is balanced by it being un-efficient against most opponents in the setting it was designed to. A spell that can beat opponents with no save is broken. If it is broken against 10% of opponents and 90% are immune, it has been designed possibly even worse! This isn't true. The spell wasn't designed to be used in cold environments. It's designed to be used by spellcasters from cold environments.
qwerty1 08-07-07, 01:51 PM	Didn't the Dragon have "Fearsome Presence"? Not too sure if this is the right name?
Lord_Bonez 08-07-07, 02:08 PM	I thank all of u for ur posts but even if the spell is broken there are still other spells that do dexterity damage. Now that my party knows that all they have to do is lower the dragons dexterity by 10 through a series of spells or abilities that will make my encounters with dragons much more difficult. Meaning that most of my spell casters have spells that do dexterity damage not only for the reason of creating helpless monsters but it also makes them easier to hit for the less effective fighters such as the assassin. Many of u made comments about dragons flying like it was an all powerful ability there are many spells that negate their flying ability such as a the level 5 Blizzard spell reducing visibility to zero meaning the dragon can fly around all day and not be able to target the party due to the fact it can not see them. A simple level 1 spell called Snowsight allows the party to see the dragon and target him at will. There are many spells that obscure sight which is the best choice when fighting a dragon because of the fact that dragons have insane saving throws. which brings us back to square 1 dragons are all powerful beings with low dexterity if the dragon doesnt have spells of some sort countering this problem they are far less powerful. I dont appreciate insults especially if they are not helpful if u dont have something productive to add please dont post on this thread. I am looking for an answer on how a dragon can overcome its weakness of low dexterity. It shouldnt really matter what kind of dragon it is I would be glad to hear any ideas even if it is an ability of a specific dragon or some kind of tactic that is not easily defeated with mundane spells.
Zarron 08-07-07, 02:17 PM	If I were a dragon... and the people attacking me used a spell to provide themselves cover from my ability to target them... I would wish I had some method of defeating this. True Seeing doesn't pierce a blizzard... Or, I could just use AoE attacks that don't care for targeting.
wingspan99 08-07-07, 02:59 PM	You should consider Counterspelling as an option. Change the feats around a bit to give the dragon improved counterspell, and make sure it has some appropriate spells to use for that purpose. Contingency with Dispel Magic is also helpful - a high level spell, but it sounds like your PC's are getting up there. Give the dragon a few wands - Dispel Magic and Cat's Grace are some options. Maybe a ring of spell turning? One thing to remember is that the dragons are (most likely) more intelligent than the PCs, so it's okay for the dragon to anticipate the PCs tactics and have a counter at the ready. If the dragon is aware of their approach, he could be scrying on them in an attempt to foil their plans. Even an 'old' blue has spell immunity on it's spell list, so that might be a thought. Perhaps the dragon is aware of previous tactics used by the party. Let's face it - if they've been going around slaughtering dragons, then someone's heard of them and will find out how they've been doing it...
wingspan99 08-07-07, 03:23 PM	I can tell you're frustrated by your PC's tactics. You need to turn some of it around on them. It looks to me that the dragons are fighting on the PC's terms. An intelligent dragon will force his enemies to fight on his terms - where he can take advantage of the terrain and exploit his enemies weaknesses. The tactics that you have mentioned so far have been effective, but they are easily countered. The blizzard spell has an AoE of 100'. A flying dragon is out of that in less than a round, and he isn't going to stick around and let them take potshots at him. Have him fly away around a nearby cliff for a few rounds and buff up his defenses. Protection from Elements several times over, Cat's Grace, Blur...Whatever seems appropriate. Don't let the PCs dictate the flow of the battle. And target the spellcasters right away! Also, meta-breath weapon feats are useful. Energy substitution for the breath weapon type should mess with their heads - a red dragon breathing a cone of acid?!? Say it isn't so! Out of curiosity, what Dex-lowering spells that aren't touch are they using?
deathbane 08-07-07, 03:29 PM	I thank all of u for ur posts but even if the spell is broken there are still other spells that do dexterity damage. Now that my party knows that all they have to do is lower the dragons dexterity by 10 through a series of spells or abilities that will make my encounters with dragons much more difficult. Meaning that most of my spell casters have spells that do dexterity damage not only for the reason of creating helpless monsters but it also makes them easier to hit for the less effective fighters such as the assassin. Many of u made comments about dragons flying like it was an all powerful ability there are many spells that negate their flying ability such as a the level 5 Blizzard spell reducing visibility to zero meaning the dragon can fly around all day and not be able to target the party due to the fact it can not see them. A simple level 1 spell called Snowsight allows the party to see the dragon and target him at will. There are many spells that obscure sight which is the best choice when fighting a dragon because of the fact that dragons have insane saving throws. which brings us back to square 1 dragons are all powerful beings with low dexterity if the dragon doesnt have spells of some sort countering this problem they are far less powerful. I dont appreciate insults especially if they are not helpful if u dont have something productive to add please dont post on this thread. I am looking for an answer on how a dragon can overcome its weakness of low dexterity. It shouldnt really matter what kind of dragon it is I would be glad to hear any ideas even if it is an ability of a specific dragon or some kind of tactic that is not easily defeated with mundane spells. Dragons are hundreds of years old, very intelligent, and have magical and physical prowess, and must stay vigilant against adventurers, and other dragons trying to steal their treasure, so I am sure a dragon would have a means to handle most adventurers(DM gets to metagame, and choose specific spells to lay the smack down on the party). Now it might be better to wait until the group gets stronger to make them fight a dragon because a dragon that is of the correct CR at the level might not be a challenge. I dont know ur party's makeup so it is hard for me to plan against them. I am assuming you are using an old red dragon The dragon should try to get the drop on the party. Most dragons have gold and magical items. I would have my dragon have dust of disappearance which works like greater invisibility once he noticed the intruders. He should cast silence on the space the wiz/sor is in, but not the wzi/sor so they dont get a will save. Since they dont know where the spell is centered from they dont know where to run to escape it. I am sure the dragon will lose initiative to teh party, but he is still invisible, so he can cast silence on the cleric now if he is not in the area of silence with the wizard, but if he is then cast web to prevent slow then down. If you are still invisible cast stinking cloud. teh arcane caster should still be struggling with web, and now he has to make a fort save also. Since you get to choose the dragon's feats. I would take improved natural attack(bite) which does 4d6+11 on the first attack. Being invisible you can go to full attacks against which ever spell caster you consider the primary threat or you can use your breath, and then move because even if you are invisible the fire that you release wont be. After 2 or 3 more attack both caster should be down(at least one), but you will be visible by this time most likely, so now you have to deal with the melee guys. If you got lucky, and are still invisible then cast shield which pushes you AC up by another four to 33. A hard number for a level 10 party Finish the cleric if he is still up, and if not then you get to concentrate on the fighters. Casting ray of enfeeblement on the tank will reduce his chance to hit you if he has a high attack bonus, but if he cant hit 29 AC with high rolls then wail away. If your rolls are bad you can have wraithstrike as a backup so his armor is not effective. This is a swift cast spell so you can still go all out on the tank. With two party members down it should be a cakewalk from here.
Lord_Bonez 08-08-07, 12:11 AM	wingspan99 the spell that I was refering to is frostbite from the Frostburn manual it is a 5th level clerical spell that does 6d6 cold damage and 2d6 dexterity allowing spell resistance and a fortitude save for half damage.
wingspan99 08-08-07, 08:16 AM	That is a nasty spell that needs to be reviewed in a big bad way! It's vastly overpowered AND it can affect multiple opponents! Come on! The only drawback is that the range is close...The save should negate the Dex damage and halve the cold damage at the least.:confused: The one thing that seems to be happening here is that the dragons are letting the party close with them way too fast. Is the cleric worshipping a god of cold? Your party seems to be focussing a lot on the cold spells. Just because a spell appears in an official sourcebook does not mean that the cleric can instantly have access to it. I know it would be difficult for you to retroactively disallow it, but some deities would simply not grant certain spells to their clerics.
orionm42 08-08-07, 10:17 AM	A flying dragon is out of that in less than a round, and he isn't going to stick around and let them take potshots at him. Have him fly away around a nearby cliff for a few rounds and buff up his defenses. Protection from Elements several times over, Cat's Grace, Blur...Whatever seems appropriate. The winner! As many have already mentioned, dragons are smart. You should DM them that way. Even a monster with low intelligence is not going to stick around and fight once the PCs severely incapacitate him. If possible, he will retreat and regroup. If the PCs can prevent him from fleeing...fine. But any even remotely intelligent creature won't stand around and be a punching bag for the PCs if retreat is an option.
BlackHalfDragon 08-08-07, 10:31 AM	What is the real CR of the dragon. better yet just tell me what dragon it was and maybe you can get a real answer if this is a real post? baby white dragon with no cold resitance ... still in the egg ?
CreepingCharly 08-08-07, 01:16 PM	IIRC, it states in Frostburn that the spells contained in the book are lost knowledge and largely unknown to most the world. I think it mentioned something like a long forgotten tome of some cold-based diety contains the spells, and it takes quite some research and practice to be able to wield them. I think the designers intended these spells to be largely unavailable to non-arctic campaigns, not counting DM intervention of course... I would remove them from your game. They seem to be too disruptive. If the players want some of them, make them journey to the frozen wastes in search of a scroll or small cache of spells. :twocents: Charly
wingspan99 08-08-07, 01:49 PM	I have to agree with CreepingCharly. Quite a few of the spells in there seem disruptive and potentially unbalancing, and 99.9% of clerics would not have access to them.
Lord_Bonez 08-08-07, 05:21 PM	As I stated before the characters are from the frozen wastes the party consists of the following. An 11th level Cleric of Auril, A 12 level Sorcerer Frost Mage with mastery over cold magic and prohibited from fire magic, a 12th level Monk Assassin, and an 11th level Barbarian. the only character in the party that doesnt have a solid backgroung in the frost fell enviroment is the monk assassin who b4 meeting the party was part of a monestary in the frozen wastes. As u would guess the barbarian is from a tribe who venerates the diety of frost giants. So I am kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. I should have done my research b4 I let my Sorcerer talk me into a frostfell campaign, maybe my best bet is to review the spells and remove some of them and make them fight more monsters with the cold subtype. I really cant do it to much considering that they are mercs for hire taking small campaigns here and there while I get a better grasp on DMing b4 we start an epic campaign for mid level characters. The point is that almost everyone that posts says the same thing that dragons can fly and that they have high intelligence that is not helpful at all like I said b4 the problem is the characters can cast spells that make flying irrelavent and and retreating isnt much of an option when u have 0 dexterity and are helpless. AS FOR U WINGSPAN99 U HAVE BEEN GREAT HELP!!! I thank u greatly for the counterspelling ideas and the magic items ideas that is some of the best information i have gathered from these posts. I never thought of dragons using magic items as i said b4 i am new to DMing and i still have alot to learn.
concerro 08-08-07, 09:23 PM	As I stated before the characters are from the frozen wastes the party consists of the following. An 11th level Cleric of Auril, A 12 level Sorcerer Frost Mage with mastery over cold magic and prohibited from fire magic, a 12th level Monk Assassin, and an 11th level Barbarian. the only character in the party that doesnt have a solid backgroung in the frost fell enviroment is the monk assassin who b4 meeting the party was part of a monestary in the frozen wastes. As u would guess the barbarian is from a tribe who venerates the diety of frost giants. So I am kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. I should have done my research b4 I let my Sorcerer talk me into a frostfell campaign, maybe my best bet is to review the spells and remove some of them and make them fight more monsters with the cold subtype. I really cant do it to much considering that they are mercs for hire taking small campaigns here and there while I get a better grasp on DMing b4 we start an epic campaign for mid level characters. The point is that almost everyone that posts says the same thing that dragons can fly and that they have high intelligence that is not helpful at all like I said b4 the problem is the characters can cast spells that make flying irrelavent and and retreating isnt much of an option when u have 0 dexterity and are helpless. AS FOR U WINGSPAN99 U HAVE BEEN GREAT HELP!!! I thank u greatly for the counterspelling ideas and the magic items ideas that is some of the best information i have gathered from these posts. I never thought of dragons using magic items as i said b4 i am new to DMing and i still have alot to learn. The problem here seems to be experienced players and an inexperienced DM. When ever you ask for help you should post more info on your party, such as the spells they like to cast, feats they like to use, and the encounter that made you post here(the real one). Every character can be countered, and it would help if you told how they made flying irrelevant.
Ace_of_time 08-08-07, 10:04 PM	Assuming the 10th level is right that would put it about young adult maybe adult depending on the dragon. White and silver are out. I say black because it has the lowerst SR but only by 1-2 points. Don't see why the dragon at adult level didn't attack the wizard after the first casting. Most have spells by then to don't they.
concerro 08-08-07, 10:46 PM	Assuming the 10th level is right that would put it about young adult maybe adult depending on the dragon. White and silver are out. I say black because it has the lowerst SR but only by 1-2 points. Don't see why the dragon at adult level didn't attack the wizard after the first casting. Most have spells by then to don't they. With a dex of 10 he probably lost initiative, and most young dragons can only cast level 1 or 2 spells, even an adult red dragon can only cast up to level 3, and assay resistance is an immediate cast spell which allows the wizard to cast a 2nd spell in the same round, so unless he gets the jump on the party it's game over.
Lord_Bonez 08-08-07, 11:10 PM	Its apparent that ace of time and concerro didnt read all the posts so please do not post here if u are not going to read the posts and if u do post here and u dont read the posts please state that u have not read all the posts. So please dont bother posting here if u dont know what the posts are about. As stated earlier I said the type of dragon is irrelevent because of the tactics that the party used to defeat the dragon. But u are right ace of time it wasnt a silver or white dragon and so I dont get any more posts about the type of dragon it was again u were right ace of time it was an adult Black Dragon. concerro I did state earlier how they made the flying ability irrelevent and I also stated what spells they used and what characters were in the party I didnt see how stating their feats would make any difference because it had nothing to do with the swift defeat of the dragon. As for being an inexperienced DM I stated earlier that I was inexperienced I used to be a player for a few years until the DM decided he wanted to be a player. The old DM is also the sorcerer which is where most of the problems have occured, being that he is an experienced DM and I am not he know the loopholes and how to get around rules along with an insane amount of tactics that we used along with the stats of almost every monster in the Monster Manuals 1-4 by heart not to mention the fiend folio and the monsters in some of the other handbooks that i havent even read. That tends to make things a little bit difficult for me, being that this is the first campaign I have ever run so please give me a little credit at least!
Ace_of_time 08-08-07, 11:18 PM	I did read all the posts. Sorry if it sounded other wise. You said he cast two spell and that means two rounds. After the first spell was cast he would have move up to the spellcaster to keep him from casting and for full attack next round. casting is AoO. I think from now on anything non core should be look up first before letting it in. As for the spell damage the min is 0 on all abilities. The spell is supposed to freeze them paralysis. But dragons are immune to that so what do you did.
concerro 08-08-07, 11:35 PM	I did read all the posts. Sorry if it sounded other wise. You said he cast two spell and that means two rounds. After the first spell was cast he would have move up to the spellcaster to keep him from casting and for full attack next round. casting is AoO. the first spell was an immediate action, and if he makes cast on defensive he can avoid the AoO, which means he gets 2 spells off in the first round, while the dragon gets to do nothing but die, unless he ambushes the party, however if the party knew they were dragon hunting they would probably buff up which means the spell caster gets to survive so he should grapple(you get as many chances to grapple as you do attacks and he cant be that lucky) the spell caster so he cant cast spells unless he has the spell component in his hand already, and even then he has to make a concentration check. If I had the caster grappled I would fly up very high and drop him from at least 300 feet. 30d6 is a lot of dice. It has been stated that the party has options against flyers, but until they have been stated I cant counter them. If they are inside a cave then casting invisibility after grappling the arcane caster would help. Later, when the party least expects it he can come back for the cleric, and then he should be able to take the final 2 alone.
concerro 08-08-07, 11:41 PM	I did read all the posts. Sorry if it sounded other wise. You said he cast two spell and that means two rounds. After the first spell was cast he would have move up to the spellcaster to keep him from casting and for full attack next round. casting is AoO. I think from now on anything non core should be look up first before letting it in. As for the spell damage the min is 0 on all abilities. The spell is supposed to freeze them paralysis. But dragons are immune to that so what do you did. you make a good point with the paralysis, but it says paralysis effects, which may mean spells that cause you not to move, but they are not immune to actual ability damage or drain. :confused:
Ace_of_time 08-08-07, 11:49 PM	you make a good point with the paralysis, but it says paralysis effects, which may mean spells that cause you not to move, but they are not immune to actual ability damage or drain. :confused: He would still take damage as normal but 0 dex wouldn't paralysis that I know of. As to the spells I thought it was still only one spell per round unless you had something like a feat. Even quicken spell doesn't give you two spells a round? Does anyone know for sure. Never mind I found that one. My players don't use mata feats just rodsand not always.
Ace_of_time 08-09-07, 12:07 AM	It's a swift the book says. Immediate actions can't be taken flat footed Swift can. Still leave an unparalyzed dragon. I say darkness first then take out spell caster with full attack and quicken breath.
concerro 08-09-07, 12:07 AM	He would still take damage as normal but 0 dex would paralysis that I know of. As to the spells I thought it was still only one spell per round unless you had something like a feat. Even quicken spell doesn't give you two spells a round? Does anyone know for sure. Never mind I found that one. My players don't use mata feats just rodsand not always. quicken spells does give two spells, but there was no feat involved. There are feats that have a casting time of swift, which work just like quicken spells because they are so quick you can still do a full round action. When I said immediate in the other post I should have said swift.
Ace_of_time 08-09-07, 12:20 AM	wingspan99 the spell that I was refering to is frostbite from the Frostburn manual it is a 5th level clerical spell that does 6d6 cold damage and 2d6 dexterity allowing spell resistance and a fortitude save for half damage. How did he miss his save with +13 save? Would that half both damages?
Ace_of_time 08-09-07, 12:32 AM	I thank all of u for ur posts but even if the spell is broken there are still other spells that do dexterity damage. Now that my party knows that all they have to do is lower the dragons dexterity by 10 through a series of spells or abilities that will make my encounters with dragons much more difficult. Meaning that most of my spell casters have spells that do dexterity damage not only for the reason of creating helpless monsters but it also makes them easier to hit for the less effective fighters such as the assassin. Many of u made comments about dragons flying like it was an all powerful ability there are many spells that negate their flying ability such as a the level 5 Blizzard spell reducing visibility to zero meaning the dragon can fly around all day and not be able to target the party due to the fact it can not see them. A simple level 1 spell called Snowsight allows the party to see the dragon and target him at will. There are many spells that obscure sight which is the best choice when fighting a dragon because of the fact that dragons have insane saving throws. which brings us back to square 1 dragons are all powerful beings with low dexterity if the dragon doesnt have spells of some sort countering this problem they are far less powerful. I dont appreciate insults especially if they are not helpful if u dont have something productive to add please dont post on this thread. I am looking for an answer on how a dragon can overcome its weakness of low dexterity. It shouldnt really matter what kind of dragon it is I would be glad to hear any ideas even if it is an ability of a specific dragon or some kind of tactic that is not easily defeated with mundane spells.Limits On dragon sight Are not that good. They have normal lowlight vision plus dark vision and blind sense in total darkness. and It's -1 every 20' instead of the normal 10' rule. We play dragon PCs all the time sorry. As stated they are immune to paralysis.
Teh_username 08-09-07, 03:23 AM	Exactly what sort of dragon survives into adulthood by just sitting in its lair waiting for adventurers with overpowered spells to waltz in and kill it? I mean, it has most likely lived there for centuries. It should be prepared for this sort of thing: traps, advantageous terrain, alarms, split treasure caches, half-dragon minions, etc. etc.. If the dragon doesn't know the number, racial makeup, combat tactics, weaknesses, and favorite colours of the PCs by the time they make it into the lair...how the hell did it survive into adulthood? Remember that treasure horde I mentioned? Yeah, the dragon can use it too. They won't be happy about it, but part of the point of having a split horde is to have the ability to make a tactical retreat to a stash of consumables - potions, wands, scrolls, etc..
wingspan99 08-09-07, 03:55 PM	To answer Ace, yes both damages would be halved...The save should really negate the Dex damage, but alas... One other thought...Class levels are okay on dragons, as well. There's nothing stopping you from increasing the sorcerer level of any particular dragon. Your adult black, for example, has 3 levels of sorcerer - why not tack on a few more to meet the challenge? And I'm glad to help, Bonez... Let me know how the next scrap turns out.
Morwen 08-09-07, 05:41 PM	Hmm. The Wizard has to use a melee touch attack (not a ranged touch attack) to affect the Dragon with Shivering Touch. So he must have actually closed to melee range with it, without having provoked an AoO due to the movement, and cast a spell, also without provoking an AoO.. And he must have started the encounter within pretty close range to the Dragon (30 ft, if Human) in order to accomplish this without the Dragon getting an attack in first.
Ace_of_time 08-10-07, 07:09 PM	To answer Ace, yes both damages would be halved...The save should really negate the Dex damage, but alas... One other thought...Class levels are okay on dragons, as well. There's nothing stopping you from increasing the sorcerer level of any particular dragon. Your adult black, for example, has 3 levels of sorcerer - why not tack on a few more to meet the challenge? And I'm glad to help, Bonez... Let me know how the next scrap turns out. Note: those level stack with sorc also.
Ace_of_time 08-10-07, 07:12 PM	Hmm. The Wizard has to use a melee touch attack (not a ranged touch attack) to affect the Dragon with Shivering Touch. So he must have actually closed to melee range with it, without having provoked an AoO due to the movement, and cast a spell, also without provoking an AoO.. And he must have started the encounter within pretty close range to the Dragon (30 ft, if Human) in order to accomplish this without the Dragon getting an attack in first. Op said the spell in the first post was the wrong one and I don't know if the other is or not.