Knowing spells vs. learning spells with 10 Int/Cha [Archive] - Wizards Community

Knowing spells vs. learning spells with 10 Int/Cha [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nefaste
02-02-08, 06:44 AM This is actually a psionics question, but since the system is built on the base rules, the question applies there as well.

Basically, wizards/sorcerors/psions all have the requirement that they can only learn/prepare/cast spells if they have 10 + spell level in the base stat that applies to that class.

But they are all described as "knowing" a certain number of initial spells at 1st level. As "learning" is different than "knowing", the question is, can someone get those spells at first level without having to meet the base stat requirement? I understand that they can not be cast/manifested even if they're known, unless you have the necessary Int/Cha, so that's not the problem, it's simply whether the character can simply "know" those initial spells.

Since none of these base classes have stat requirements listed under their requirements lists, there is no initial disqualification from the class for not having certain stats.

Here's the excerpts from the books:

Sorceror:
"To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level."
...
"A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice."

Wizard:
"To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level."
...
"A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice."

Psion (which this question particularly pertains to):
"A psion begins play knowing three psion powers of your choice. Each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of new powers."
...
"To learn or manifest a power, a psion must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the power’s level."
Merestil Haye
02-02-08, 08:14 AM This is actually a psionics question, but since the system is built on the base rules, the question applies there as well.

Basically, wizards/sorcerors/psions all have the requirement that they can only learn/prepare/cast spells if they have 10 + spell level in the base stat that applies to that class.

But they are all described as "knowing" a certain number of initial spells at 1st level. As "learning" is different than "knowing", the question is, can someone get those spells at first level without having to meet the base stat requirement? I understand that they can not be cast/manifested even if they're known, unless you have the necessary Int/Cha, so that's not the problem, it's simply whether the character can simply "know" those initial spells.A character who knows a spell has gone through a transition from not knowing that spell to knowing that spell. The name for this process is "learning."

The character does learn the spells he starts with in the first level of the class. He can only do so if his casting ability is high enough to learn those spells.
LeeAlucard
02-02-08, 09:45 AM I'd say that in ideal conditions, this shouldn't even be an issue. A person who takes levels in Sor/Wiz/Psion should have an above-average score in the key ability for the class. A Sorceror with 10 Cha is gonna get laughed at by me.

I'd rule that they don't know the first-level spells.
Mad_Jack
02-03-08, 03:28 AM The spells a character knows at the start of his career were learned before he began adventuring. If he doesn't have the intelligence/charisma/whatever to learn the spell once he starts adventuring, he would have needed to somehow have increased his primary stat at some point in his training in order to have learned those spells during his training. A character with a 10 in his casting stat could only know and learn 0-level spells until he raised his stat.

Although I wouldn't exactly laugh at a single-classed sorceror or wizard with a 10 in their primary stat, I would have to wonder about the thinking behind it. A multiclassed character wouldn't be that strange, though... I once ran a fighter who took a single level of bard to get access to the Dragon Disciple PrC and never cast anything other than the light spell in his entire career.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nefaste 02-02-08, 06:44 AM	This is actually a psionics question, but since the system is built on the base rules, the question applies there as well. Basically, wizards/sorcerors/psions all have the requirement that they can only learn/prepare/cast spells if they have 10 + spell level in the base stat that applies to that class. But they are all described as "knowing" a certain number of initial spells at 1st level. As "learning" is different than "knowing", the question is, can someone get those spells at first level without having to meet the base stat requirement? I understand that they can not be cast/manifested even if they're known, unless you have the necessary Int/Cha, so that's not the problem, it's simply whether the character can simply "know" those initial spells. Since none of these base classes have stat requirements listed under their requirements lists, there is no initial disqualification from the class for not having certain stats. Here's the excerpts from the books: Sorceror: "To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." ... "A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice." Wizard: "To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." ... "A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice." Psion (which this question particularly pertains to): "A psion begins play knowing three psion powers of your choice. Each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of new powers." ... "To learn or manifest a power, a psion must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the power’s level."
Merestil Haye 02-02-08, 08:14 AM	This is actually a psionics question, but since the system is built on the base rules, the question applies there as well. Basically, wizards/sorcerors/psions all have the requirement that they can only learn/prepare/cast spells if they have 10 + spell level in the base stat that applies to that class. But they are all described as "knowing" a certain number of initial spells at 1st level. As "learning" is different than "knowing", the question is, can someone get those spells at first level without having to meet the base stat requirement? I understand that they can not be cast/manifested even if they're known, unless you have the necessary Int/Cha, so that's not the problem, it's simply whether the character can simply "know" those initial spells.A character who knows a spell has gone through a transition from not knowing that spell to knowing that spell. The name for this process is "learning." The character does learn the spells he starts with in the first level of the class. He can only do so if his casting ability is high enough to learn those spells.
LeeAlucard 02-02-08, 09:45 AM	I'd say that in ideal conditions, this shouldn't even be an issue. A person who takes levels in Sor/Wiz/Psion should have an above-average score in the key ability for the class. A Sorceror with 10 Cha is gonna get laughed at by me. I'd rule that they don't know the first-level spells.
Mad_Jack 02-03-08, 03:28 AM	The spells a character knows at the start of his career were learned before he began adventuring. If he doesn't have the intelligence/charisma/whatever to learn the spell once he starts adventuring, he would have needed to somehow have increased his primary stat at some point in his training in order to have learned those spells during his training. A character with a 10 in his casting stat could only know and learn 0-level spells until he raised his stat. Although I wouldn't exactly laugh at a single-classed sorceror or wizard with a 10 in their primary stat, I would have to wonder about the thinking behind it. A multiclassed character wouldn't be that strange, though... I once ran a fighter who took a single level of bard to get access to the Dragon Disciple PrC and never cast anything other than the light spell in his entire career.