Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 04-23-08, 09:24 PM	I am starting my last 3E mini-campaign next Monday. It is a 17th level to 20th level game over the course of 4 sessions (one level for each). I had made a little prelude encounter to test out the players, having them fight a number of lower level opponents. The encounters were both supposed to be EL 17 fights (4 CR 13 baddies, and another encounter with 6 CR 12 baddies). There wasn't time to run it after the characters were created, but I immediately noticed a problem. The players all have attack bonuses between 20 and 30, with ACs between 30 and 40 (they're all playing warrior or rogue type characters). But the opponents, who were level 13 (one group of swordsages, the larger group was warriors) ended up with 29 AC (the swordsages) and 23 AC (the warriors). Their attack bonuses were low too, +19 (the swordsages) and +21 (the warriors). Despite the way CRs and ELs work, these opponents would have almost no chance to hit the players, and the players would have almost no chance of missing them. The NPCs were made with the best equipment I could give them at their level (+2 weapons, +2 armor, +2 deflection, +1 natural armor, +2 resistance, and a +2 enhancement item), but that was far from enough to make them capable against the party. While I could just add 5 to their ACs and to hits to make them more comparable, I feel that I'd need to raise their CR and thus wouldn't be able to throw as many at them by the CR guidelines. Should I just use higher level opponents with better scores? Thanks for the input.
tos_shai_hulud 04-23-08, 10:59 PM	The CR system is notorious for being inaccurate at higher levels, inflating NPCs to CRs that they simply don't meet. Your best bet is actually taking groups of monsters of the appropriate CRs rather than trying to balance NPCs against the party. For example, four Storm Giants straight out of the monster manual would likely be a good challenge for the party, as would six Cloud Giants with one level of Barbarian a piece.
Xeviat-DM 04-24-08, 06:42 AM	I just took a look through some CR 12 and 13 creatures, and it seems my numbers aren't too far off, except for HP. Swordsage 13th HP: 87 AC: 29, 20t, 23ff Saves: 8, 16, 13 Full Attack: +19/+14 (1d4+8, 19x2) Warrior 13th HP: 84 AC: 23, 15t, 20ff Saves: 12, 9, 6 Full Attack: +21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11 (1d8+7, 20/x3) Compare these to some MM3 creatures Astral Stalker (CR 12) HP: 126 AC: 30, 20t, 25ff Saves: 19, 18, 18 Full Attack: +20/+20 (1d6+7/19x2) (2d6 sneak attack) Cadaver Collector (CR 12) HP: 123 AC: 29, 9t, 29ff Saves: 5, 5, 8 Full Attack: +22/+22 (4d8+10) Charnel Hound (CR 13) HP: 220 AC: 26 Saves: 7, 9, 12 Full Attack: +17 (2d8+19), and +12/+12 (2d6+12) So, the only numbers horrendously off are my HP numbers. This means that adequately geared 17th level opponents cannot fight multiple CR 12 or 13 foes and receive any form of a challenge. Sad really.
Merestil Haye 04-24-08, 09:05 AM	Yes, that conclusion sounds about right to me. Remembering that a challenge of EL17 should deplete a four-man party with ECL 17 of 20% of their resources, and it takes four CR13 creatures to create an EL17 encounter, the expected result is that the party sweep the challenge aside with little problems. AC never scales as fast as attack bonuses, so the disparity isn't as surprising as it looks. Your NPCs (using NPC weath) don't have nearly as many resources to spend on AC boosting items. This result can be expected mid-levels. It just gets worse at high levels. The warriors are not CR13. Warrior is an NPC class; thus the CR of any creature with Warrior levels is reduced. A human War 13 is CR12. You might want to reconfigure that fight with that thought in mind. The warriors look like they're not going to have to roll natural 20s to hit the party, with an AB of 22 or better1 on their first attacks. On average they'll be hitting 32-33. Tactics might be interesting; have them gang up on someone, with one getting the benefit of three Aid Another action, and the champion is s hitting AC39 with his first attack. 41 if he's flanking. That's "hit on 2" territory. The attack bonus the swordsages have shouldn't be the final story either. Swordsages are martial adepts, and they would use their powers in a fight. What have you given them and what are the effects? 1Assuming you up them to War14.
runestar 04-24-08, 09:11 AM	I find it difficult to believe that a warrior 13 is a cr12. Seems rather weak when you compare it to foes like fire giants. For the same cr, you can get a substantially stronger alternative, the warblade12. Can you pose a summary of the combat tactics your swordsages will use? I think it might be possible to make them worth their cr, but you may have to put a little effort into optimizing their gear. The trick lies in judicious use of potions. A 13th lv npc is supposed to get around 35,000gp of gear (but you already knew that). ;) For example, swap +2 weapons with +1 discipline weapons (choosing the discipline to suit the stance they will be in to get a constant +3 to-hit). Use oils of greater magic weapon+5 to let them simulate +5 weapons. Ditto for potions of barkskin+5. Consider going small (kenkus from MM3 are fun) for an extra +1 to-hit and AC. Naturally, these potions will be compensated to the PCs in the form of an equivalent amount of gp, so that your players do not end up being shortchanged, and the swordsages do not exceed their wealth limit in terms of gear they possess. Try making use of maneuvers which increase your attack rolls, both directly and indirectly. For example, cloak of deception makes you invis, both giving you +2 to-hit and denying your PC his dex mod to AC, as well as paving the way for some shadow hand strikes to work. Some of the setting sun maneuvers trip your opponent, potentially giving you +4 to-hit. The gloom razor feat lets you turn invis during combat as well, and may be worth looking into. Improved initiative improves your chances of going first. Try flanking for that extra +2. Emerald razor or amulet of heartseeking(MIC) lets you make touch attacks. Charging can give another +2 to-hit (select charging maneuvers like searing charge, since you cannot charge and use a standard action strike). Lets see what we have with the following gear for a 13th lv swordsage. +9 bab(note that I believe the bab progression is wrong, it is not +10) +4 dex from weapon finesse (assume dex18, may be higher depending on race) +1 weapon focus +5 weapon (+1 weapon with greater magic weapon +5) +3 discipline weapon property +22/+17. For damage, again, you will be relying on your maneuvers, so do not be too disturbed by your low base weapon damage. Greater insightful strike, death in the dark, ancient mountain hammer are useful. Swooping dragon strike is good for stunning a PC for 1 round. As for AC, try relying more on defensive maneuvers such as zephyr dance, counter charge, baffling defense and the like. Adaptive style to refresh them as need be. It seems pointless to try and boost your AC, so you will want to play smart by utilizing hit and run tactics to minimize the ability of the PCs to make full attacks (since you will be using single strikes yourself). Ranged strikes help keep you out of harm's way, as do setting sun maneuvers which tie up your PCs' actions (for instance, if they are tripped, they need to spend a move action getting up, as well as another move action moving towards you). Miss chances can be very helpful if you can access one somehow. Maneuvers like obscuring shadow veil or hand of death are good for debuffing the PCs (in the form of paralysis or miss chances). The shifting defense stance is very useful in negating attacks, since you can make a 5-ft move as an AoO whenever the foe attacks you, so unless he is using ranged weapons or a weapon with reach, he can never land a successful hit on you!!! Basically, you want to play hit-and-run, and slowly wear them down over time, not engage them head on. :)
Xeviat-DM 04-24-08, 04:12 PM	I understand that the Warrior 13 is CR 12; I was going to throw 6 at them, so there would be more to gang up. The Swordsages are "ninjas", and they were going to use primarily Shadow Hand maneuvers (ambushing the players in the night when a few are a sleep). Interestingly enough, I have to argue about AC scaling. All of my PCs can't hit their own ACs if they roll below 10, and these NPCs are nearly the same (except the Warriors, who chose to use two weapons rather than use a shield). I'm going to remake them at higher levels and see at which point their ABs and ACs are high enough to make them a threat. I am amused at how low NPC hit points end up being compared to the monsters I listed.
Zuggster 04-24-08, 06:16 PM	I understand that the Warrior 13 is CR 12; I was going to throw 6 at them, so there would be more to gang up. The Swordsages are "ninjas", and they were going to use primarily Shadow Hand maneuvers (ambushing the players in the night when a few are a sleep).. One thing to keep in mind here, is whether or not the PCs are sleeping in Armor. There are some Feats/Abilities that allow that, but if the PCs don't have them, then their AC should be a tad lower.
Xeviat-DM 04-25-08, 04:03 PM	One thing to keep in mind here, is whether or not the PCs are sleeping in Armor. There are some Feats/Abilities that allow that, but if the PCs don't have them, then their AC should be a tad lower. Two wear light armor, and of the two that wear heavy armor only one can't sleep in it (and she uses a shield too). That issue has already been dealt with.
runestar 04-25-08, 11:11 PM	I understand that the Warrior 13 is CR 12 No, I mean that they seem far too weak to be considered a cr12, regardless of what the cr guidelines would otherwise suggest. Cr8-9 seems more apt, IMO. I mean, you still get a better deal using (shudder) a fighter12 compared to warrior13 (with the same gear).
Senevri 04-30-08, 10:50 AM	That being said, tripping, flanking, higher ground, aid another. Also, drop one Warrior for a single L12 Bard or War Weaver. Also #2, instead of giving them +X items give them oils and potions of equal value.
Gersidi 04-30-08, 03:44 PM	Depending on the backstory behind the attack, you might consider templates. Half-Golem (MM2) if they're in the service of crazy arcane casters, Spellstitched + any undead template for Necromancers, half-trolls for monstrous, there are templates aplenty and they often boost the NPCs more than a few more levels of Warrior would. Tripping drops AC by 4 and and NPC that focuses on the mechanic will probably beat PCs that didn't focus half the time or more. Grappling is a great mechanic, especially if there are some rogue types in the ambush group who can sneak attack the PCs that are bound up in a grapple. Grappled chars will be easier to hit since anyone in the grapple will be denied their dex and dex-related bonuses to AC. Give them Improved Grapple (+4) and potions of Enlarge Person (+4 more) and suddenly they'll be on par with the grappling skills of any PC that didn't focus on the grappling mechanic. Also, since the PCs are without an arcane caster/without dispel magic, the Enlarge Person affect won't get dispelled even with the low caster level of a potion. Of course, grapple goes both ways and your NPCs can also get sneak attacked within these grapples, but still. Might be fun. Also, for maneuvers - Shadow Garrote for ranged touch attacks, and Emerald Razor for Melee touch attacks. Heap Power Attack onto a 2 handed weapon and Emerald Razor and see if your PCs sweat a little.
Xeviat-DM 04-30-08, 09:18 PM	I ran the attack yesterday. As it turns out, 8 CR 13's made a good attack (since it was the only attack that day, I was comfortable boosting the EL). By using flanking and Aid another, I was able to hit the PCs (even got a crit that nearly took someone down). I discovered that giving NPCs good constitutions (16 or 18) actually increased their HP to levels appropriate for their CR (comparable to other combat creatures in their CR range). The only problem of using so many creatures in a fight was that while I was able to use aid another to boost their attacks, their ACs were terrible. One PC was actually able to use the Avalanche of Blades + Combat Rhythm trick to deal 165 damage in one hit (technically took two rounds); since I'm using max HP for the PCs and NPCs/Monsters, that was just enough to take someone out in one hit.