Level Loss in terms of XP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Level Loss in terms of XP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pukunui
08-11-07, 04:31 PM Hi all,

I'm wondering how losing a level (either through being raised from the dead or through level drain) affects XP. Does it say anywhere in either the PHB or the DMG? I couldn't find anything but I haven't looked all that thoroughly. Do I drop the character down to 1 XP below the required amount for their previous level? Or halfway? Or at the beginning of the level below? Do I subtract the amount required to get from one level to the next?

Please let me know as the group is about to attempt to resurrect their paladin, who was 7th level but will soon be 6th level.

Thanks in advance.

- Jonathan
SillyRobot
08-11-07, 05:42 PM look for "Level Loss" in Abilities and Conditions. What happens to the experience total is detailed there.

Level Loss
A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.
The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.
pukunui
08-11-07, 07:44 PM Sweet as. Thanks for the quick response. I knew it had to be in there somewhere. Cheers.
Nom
08-11-07, 08:04 PM As far as the rules, SillyRobot has said all needs to be said.

That said, the actual level loss mechanic has multiple points of clunkiness:

(1) Recalculating skill points and hit points is a pain, as is things like arcane spells known. Other stats less so, but still painful.

(2) The actual XP loss varies drastically by current XP total. If you have just advanced a level, you lose half a level worth of XP. If you are just about to advance a level, you lose a whopping level and a half worth of XP.

I tried awarding negative levels in place of level loss, but if you do the maths it becomes clear that the numerical penalties from a negative level are roughly twice or even more the benefit gained from a level. It also didn't solve the XP problem.

These days, I don't bother with level loss, and just dock one level's worth of XP (the XP gain, not total, required to reach their existing level). If that drops them below the minimum, so be it (as long as the total isn't below 0); they just need to wait longer to advance again.
pukunui
08-11-07, 09:23 PM (1) Recalculating skill points and hit points is a pain, as is things like arcane spells known. Other stats less so, but still painful.Indeed. Fortunately, I'm very **** about keeping track of my players' PCs. I happen to still have a copy of the character in question at 6th level, so there's no problem at all with stripping away a level in terms of abilities, hit points, etc.

(2) The actual XP loss varies drastically by current XP total. If you have just advanced a level, you lose half a level worth of XP. If you are just about to advance a level, you lose a whopping level and a half worth of XP.This is a good point. Your suggestion of docking one level's worth of XP is an interesting idea - one that I was wondering about in my original post. That is to say, so if a 3rd level PC takes a level hit, you would dock him 2,000XP (the amount required to go from 2nd level to 3rd) rather than knocking him down to 1,500XP? What if it's an either/or, whichever is the lesser style of thing? You either knock them down to the 1/2 point or just dock them a level's worth of XP, whichever is less?

If you've only just attained 3rd level, being hit for 2,000XP is more painful than just be dropped to midway, which would only mean losing 1,500XP. However, if you were most of the way to 4th level, it would be better to take the 2,000XP hit rather (and you might not even lose a level) than going all the way back to halfway to 3rd level.

There is some precedent in the rules for doing this sort of thing. Just the other day I was reading about a psionic power that granted something equal to class level or a set number, whichever was the lesser number ...
Sildatorak
08-15-07, 03:13 PM In my campaigns, I always just take away one level's worth of XP. That way you take the same loss of XP regardless of whether you are at exactly the minimum or are at 1 away from leveling. It is more consistent than the halfway point rule, which players appreciate (well, as much as they can appreciate anything related to energy drain).
StevenO
08-15-07, 06:32 PM While the RAW is you set the XP to the half way point you could drop an entire level and leave the character just as far away. Put another way if a character is 75% of the way towards next level he reamains 75% of the way to the next level.

example: A 5th level character with 14000 XP is 80% of the way to 6th level. If permanently level drained to 4th level its XP would be set at 9200 which is 80% of the way to 5th level.

It may be a touch more complicated that the RAW method but is probably the most accurate way to represent a level loss in XP terms.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 08-11-07, 04:31 PM	Hi all, I'm wondering how losing a level (either through being raised from the dead or through level drain) affects XP. Does it say anywhere in either the PHB or the DMG? I couldn't find anything but I haven't looked all that thoroughly. Do I drop the character down to 1 XP below the required amount for their previous level? Or halfway? Or at the beginning of the level below? Do I subtract the amount required to get from one level to the next? Please let me know as the group is about to attempt to resurrect their paladin, who was 7th level but will soon be 6th level. Thanks in advance. - Jonathan
SillyRobot 08-11-07, 05:42 PM	look for "Level Loss" in Abilities and Conditions. What happens to the experience total is detailed there. Level Loss A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level. The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.
pukunui 08-11-07, 07:44 PM	Sweet as. Thanks for the quick response. I knew it had to be in there somewhere. Cheers.
Nom 08-11-07, 08:04 PM	As far as the rules, SillyRobot has said all needs to be said. That said, the actual level loss mechanic has multiple points of clunkiness: (1) Recalculating skill points and hit points is a pain, as is things like arcane spells known. Other stats less so, but still painful. (2) The actual XP loss varies drastically by current XP total. If you have just advanced a level, you lose half a level worth of XP. If you are just about to advance a level, you lose a whopping level and a half worth of XP. I tried awarding negative levels in place of level loss, but if you do the maths it becomes clear that the numerical penalties from a negative level are roughly twice or even more the benefit gained from a level. It also didn't solve the XP problem. These days, I don't bother with level loss, and just dock one level's worth of XP (the XP gain, not total, required to reach their existing level). If that drops them below the minimum, so be it (as long as the total isn't below 0); they just need to wait longer to advance again.
pukunui 08-11-07, 09:23 PM	(1) Recalculating skill points and hit points is a pain, as is things like arcane spells known. Other stats less so, but still painful.Indeed. Fortunately, I'm very **** about keeping track of my players' PCs. I happen to still have a copy of the character in question at 6th level, so there's no problem at all with stripping away a level in terms of abilities, hit points, etc. (2) The actual XP loss varies drastically by current XP total. If you have just advanced a level, you lose half a level worth of XP. If you are just about to advance a level, you lose a whopping level and a half worth of XP.This is a good point. Your suggestion of docking one level's worth of XP is an interesting idea - one that I was wondering about in my original post. That is to say, so if a 3rd level PC takes a level hit, you would dock him 2,000XP (the amount required to go from 2nd level to 3rd) rather than knocking him down to 1,500XP? What if it's an either/or, whichever is the lesser style of thing? You either knock them down to the 1/2 point or just dock them a level's worth of XP, whichever is less? If you've only just attained 3rd level, being hit for 2,000XP is more painful than just be dropped to midway, which would only mean losing 1,500XP. However, if you were most of the way to 4th level, it would be better to take the 2,000XP hit rather (and you might not even lose a level) than going all the way back to halfway to 3rd level. There is some precedent in the rules for doing this sort of thing. Just the other day I was reading about a psionic power that granted something equal to class level or a set number, whichever was the lesser number ...
Sildatorak 08-15-07, 03:13 PM	In my campaigns, I always just take away one level's worth of XP. That way you take the same loss of XP regardless of whether you are at exactly the minimum or are at 1 away from leveling. It is more consistent than the halfway point rule, which players appreciate (well, as much as they can appreciate anything related to energy drain).
StevenO 08-15-07, 06:32 PM	While the RAW is you set the XP to the half way point you could drop an entire level and leave the character just as far away. Put another way if a character is 75% of the way towards next level he reamains 75% of the way to the next level. example: A 5th level character with 14000 XP is 80% of the way to 6th level. If permanently level drained to 4th level its XP would be set at 9200 which is 80% of the way to 5th level. It may be a touch more complicated that the RAW method but is probably the most accurate way to represent a level loss in XP terms.