Leveling Up [Archive] - Wizards Community

Leveling Up [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
necrosnoop110
04-06-08, 04:46 PM For 3.5 D&D are there any written rules on leveling up characters "in-game"? That is to say are players allowed to level up between gaming sessions but while still in the middle of adventure game-time?

I appreciate anyone's opinion on the subject but I am looking for written core rules with page numbers.

Thanks,
Necro
Totentanz
04-06-08, 04:55 PM The game never says flat out that it doesn't work that way. It offers suggestions for down time and required training, if the DM wants to do it that way. Some people are really hung up on needing training for feats, classes, etc. I'm not one of them.

See, a level is just an abstract, mechanical way of showing what the character is picking up as he goes along adventuring. The Fighter doesn't need to another Fighter to show him how to swing a sword better. If he did, then why did he need to slay 50 goblins first? Experience points represent characters EXPERIENCE.

Now on an individual basis, sure training or downtime might be a good idea. A Wizard doesn't just have those new spell slots pop in his head. He at least needs to rest to get fill them. If you want to be an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, then be prepared to spend some time training.

My group awards xp at the end of a session, regardless of where we are IG. If that means we level, then we level. If someone is getting the first level of a PrC or something that requires training or whatnot, it is either resolved prior to that session or we do a time warp. I wouldn't dream of telling my players they have to wait to get the benefits they have been working hard for. I wouldn't long tolerate it as a player either. Some artifacts of DnD culture are just ways for DM's to power-trip. That is one of them.
Krusk
04-06-08, 06:22 PM There are a few positions on this issue.

1- you gain xp from every fight, if it levels you you level then and there.
2- you gain xp at the end of a session, if you level you do it between sessions.
3- you gain xp at the end of a session, if you would level you must wait until you have some time to train in town or not in a dungeon. Training time varries between DMs.

As far as I know officially 1 is the way it works, but for flavor, logic, or simply keeping a game session running, people usually opt for one of those three over the others.

(Personally I see the adventure itself as your training, and let my PCs level up using rule 1. I require no training, and unless it is an organization specific prestige class, you can prestige right there [organization specific ones, you have to have met and joined said organizartion first, but this can be done way prior to taking levels in the class]. Your character is his abilities and the flavor you give him to justify them, not a Fighter3/wizard2/elemental savant 5.)
Kouk
04-06-08, 11:42 PM I also view the act of adventuring as being all the training one could possibly need. They aren't fighting 24/7, so any non-combat skill can be explained by the characters studying or thinking during downtime.

However, I recommend giving XP for the entire session at the end, and if characters level up then they can figure it all out between sessions.Sometimes leveling up can take a long time so I don't allow it during a session.
GoBackToRussia
04-09-08, 09:06 AM I allow it - my belief being that you are always learning new stuff. The level up simply reflects that you've finally got it straight in your mind (ie that new stance you've been working on, the somatic/verbal component to a new spell, a higher level of trance allowing you to commune with your deity, a new way of walking that is even quiter than the old way) and it can happen at any time.

Most players will have an idea of what they want to do at the next level so it's just a matter of writing it all down and rolling hit points which shouldn't take more than 15 mins.
pedro2112
04-09-08, 10:41 PM IIRC, one of the creators of Third Edition, Monte Cook, even suggested leveling up without downtime in RttToEE.
StevenO
04-09-08, 11:46 PM My opinion is that you can level as soon as you get the XP. Now some DMs may not be too liberal about when they pass out XP although most should do so at least once every game session after which you can level up even if you are "in the middle" of something.

The only real downtime required by leveling is the delay it takes to gain new limited use abilities. A Sorcerer going from 9th to 10th level may suddenly "know" their new spells but they still need to take the time to prepare those brand new 5th level spell slots. Adding hp, BAB, skills, and even most feats on the fly should be no problem. Some class abilites may fall somewhere between the two.
heffroncm
04-11-08, 05:58 PM I absolutely allow players to level up as soon as they have enough experience to do so. I also give out experience once per session, at the very end. I also do my best to end the session in the midst of some critical moment, be it an intense negotiaton or the top of initiative in a combat they aren't certain to win. The 'heroic surge' moments, where a party member suddenly (a week later) pulls out with a feat, manuever, or spell never seen before, are great fun.
StevenO
04-11-08, 09:57 PM Necessity is the mother of inovation.

Although it doesn't help spellcasters with their new spells it certainly would be dramatic to level the characters DURING an adventure's climatic encounter.
Magrus
04-11-08, 10:30 PM There aren't rules on it, its up to you. Personally, I let the situation dictate the circumstances. It's fluid for me, sometimes I do it on the go, most of the times I do it between sessions, other times, if I feel the players are advancing too fast, I hold them back and explain why.
Sildatorak
04-12-08, 02:35 PM I hand out xp at the end of sessions, and I generally have the characters do their leveling overnight in game. If we have to break mid-adventure for some reason, I'll dish out the xp so far and tell them to have their new sheet ready to break out after the next time they rest up.
Sorath
05-03-08, 07:03 AM I have played it both ways, with and without training. I personally like training for feats, new skills, and new class abilities. If the characters level up in mid adventure, they get their BAB, saves, new spell slots for existing spell levels that they already know, and can add ranks to existing skills.

For me, training provides several benefits. 1) It requires the party to take time in a town to train and classes like Wizard need some extra time for scroll creation and such. 2) It is a great roleplaying tool to have a trainer for the characters who can give them new information about new quests or adventures. 3) Allows for prestige class acquisition that makes sense.

When our group tried out the "no training" philosophy, while it was nice to just level up everything wherever we were, it seemed to take away something from the game. Our game lost some of its roleplaying flair and tipped the scales even further towards hack and slash. I like training for things that your character has never used before.

As far as where to find training in the rules? Look at page 197 in the DMG, it talks all about training. I believe it leaves it as an option for DM's, but it goes into all of it including costs.
kelvinaw273
05-04-08, 07:51 AM I play it that you level as and when, BUT that if you want to level into a Prestige class you have to be training or working on it before hand, especially if it is a prestige class that requires some special conditions - such as being recommended by an existing member of a society, or performing a particular deed.
mvincent
05-05-08, 11:09 AM I am looking for written core rules with page numbers.Options from DMG pg.197-198:
1) It just goes on in the background (default method). From the PHB (pg.58) this appears to occur immediately once the XP is received.
2) Training (several weeks)
3) One day in downtime
4) 1d4 days in downtime
pmurray@bigpond.com
05-06-08, 11:33 PM In the game I DM, I calculate XP between the weekly games and people levell up ther characters before next session, no matter where they might be in-game.

In a game I play, the DM wants us to visit town, train, and spend 100gp/level.

Either is good.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
necrosnoop110 04-06-08, 04:46 PM	For 3.5 D&D are there any written rules on leveling up characters "in-game"? That is to say are players allowed to level up between gaming sessions but while still in the middle of adventure game-time? I appreciate anyone's opinion on the subject but I am looking for written core rules with page numbers. Thanks, Necro
Totentanz 04-06-08, 04:55 PM	The game never says flat out that it doesn't work that way. It offers suggestions for down time and required training, if the DM wants to do it that way. Some people are really hung up on needing training for feats, classes, etc. I'm not one of them. See, a level is just an abstract, mechanical way of showing what the character is picking up as he goes along adventuring. The Fighter doesn't need to another Fighter to show him how to swing a sword better. If he did, then why did he need to slay 50 goblins first? Experience points represent characters EXPERIENCE. Now on an individual basis, sure training or downtime might be a good idea. A Wizard doesn't just have those new spell slots pop in his head. He at least needs to rest to get fill them. If you want to be an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, then be prepared to spend some time training. My group awards xp at the end of a session, regardless of where we are IG. If that means we level, then we level. If someone is getting the first level of a PrC or something that requires training or whatnot, it is either resolved prior to that session or we do a time warp. I wouldn't dream of telling my players they have to wait to get the benefits they have been working hard for. I wouldn't long tolerate it as a player either. Some artifacts of DnD culture are just ways for DM's to power-trip. That is one of them.
Krusk 04-06-08, 06:22 PM	There are a few positions on this issue. 1- you gain xp from every fight, if it levels you you level then and there. 2- you gain xp at the end of a session, if you level you do it between sessions. 3- you gain xp at the end of a session, if you would level you must wait until you have some time to train in town or not in a dungeon. Training time varries between DMs. As far as I know officially 1 is the way it works, but for flavor, logic, or simply keeping a game session running, people usually opt for one of those three over the others. (Personally I see the adventure itself as your training, and let my PCs level up using rule 1. I require no training, and unless it is an organization specific prestige class, you can prestige right there [organization specific ones, you have to have met and joined said organizartion first, but this can be done way prior to taking levels in the class]. Your character is his abilities and the flavor you give him to justify them, not a Fighter3/wizard2/elemental savant 5.)
Kouk 04-06-08, 11:42 PM	I also view the act of adventuring as being all the training one could possibly need. They aren't fighting 24/7, so any non-combat skill can be explained by the characters studying or thinking during downtime. However, I recommend giving XP for the entire session at the end, and if characters level up then they can figure it all out between sessions.Sometimes leveling up can take a long time so I don't allow it during a session.
GoBackToRussia 04-09-08, 09:06 AM	I allow it - my belief being that you are always learning new stuff. The level up simply reflects that you've finally got it straight in your mind (ie that new stance you've been working on, the somatic/verbal component to a new spell, a higher level of trance allowing you to commune with your deity, a new way of walking that is even quiter than the old way) and it can happen at any time. Most players will have an idea of what they want to do at the next level so it's just a matter of writing it all down and rolling hit points which shouldn't take more than 15 mins.
pedro2112 04-09-08, 10:41 PM	IIRC, one of the creators of Third Edition, Monte Cook, even suggested leveling up without downtime in RttToEE.
StevenO 04-09-08, 11:46 PM	My opinion is that you can level as soon as you get the XP. Now some DMs may not be too liberal about when they pass out XP although most should do so at least once every game session after which you can level up even if you are "in the middle" of something. The only real downtime required by leveling is the delay it takes to gain new limited use abilities. A Sorcerer going from 9th to 10th level may suddenly "know" their new spells but they still need to take the time to prepare those brand new 5th level spell slots. Adding hp, BAB, skills, and even most feats on the fly should be no problem. Some class abilites may fall somewhere between the two.
heffroncm 04-11-08, 05:58 PM	I absolutely allow players to level up as soon as they have enough experience to do so. I also give out experience once per session, at the very end. I also do my best to end the session in the midst of some critical moment, be it an intense negotiaton or the top of initiative in a combat they aren't certain to win. The 'heroic surge' moments, where a party member suddenly (a week later) pulls out with a feat, manuever, or spell never seen before, are great fun.
StevenO 04-11-08, 09:57 PM	Necessity is the mother of inovation. Although it doesn't help spellcasters with their new spells it certainly would be dramatic to level the characters DURING an adventure's climatic encounter.
Magrus 04-11-08, 10:30 PM	There aren't rules on it, its up to you. Personally, I let the situation dictate the circumstances. It's fluid for me, sometimes I do it on the go, most of the times I do it between sessions, other times, if I feel the players are advancing too fast, I hold them back and explain why.
Sildatorak 04-12-08, 02:35 PM	I hand out xp at the end of sessions, and I generally have the characters do their leveling overnight in game. If we have to break mid-adventure for some reason, I'll dish out the xp so far and tell them to have their new sheet ready to break out after the next time they rest up.
Sorath 05-03-08, 07:03 AM	I have played it both ways, with and without training. I personally like training for feats, new skills, and new class abilities. If the characters level up in mid adventure, they get their BAB, saves, new spell slots for existing spell levels that they already know, and can add ranks to existing skills. For me, training provides several benefits. 1) It requires the party to take time in a town to train and classes like Wizard need some extra time for scroll creation and such. 2) It is a great roleplaying tool to have a trainer for the characters who can give them new information about new quests or adventures. 3) Allows for prestige class acquisition that makes sense. When our group tried out the "no training" philosophy, while it was nice to just level up everything wherever we were, it seemed to take away something from the game. Our game lost some of its roleplaying flair and tipped the scales even further towards hack and slash. I like training for things that your character has never used before. As far as where to find training in the rules? Look at page 197 in the DMG, it talks all about training. I believe it leaves it as an option for DM's, but it goes into all of it including costs.
kelvinaw273 05-04-08, 07:51 AM	I play it that you level as and when, BUT that if you want to level into a Prestige class you have to be training or working on it before hand, especially if it is a prestige class that requires some special conditions - such as being recommended by an existing member of a society, or performing a particular deed.
mvincent 05-05-08, 11:09 AM	I am looking for written core rules with page numbers.Options from DMG pg.197-198: 1) It just goes on in the background (default method). From the PHB (pg.58) this appears to occur immediately once the XP is received. 2) Training (several weeks) 3) One day in downtime 4) 1d4 days in downtime
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-06-08, 11:33 PM	In the game I DM, I calculate XP between the weekly games and people levell up ther characters before next session, no matter where they might be in-game. In a game I play, the DM wants us to visit town, train, and spend 100gp/level. Either is good.