Post/Author/DateTime	Post
toucanbuzz 04-07-08, 03:30 PM	A weak-willed wizard drinks a Potion of Levitation and then fails a save against Hold Person. Rather than fight to break the spell once per round as allowed, he wants to mentally Levitate his paralyzed body upwards to escape the summoned hell hound that is attacking him. Does he have the discretion to remain held, and if so, does Hold Person inhibit the ability to Levitate, which seems to be based on thought processes?
calronmoonflower 04-07-08, 03:55 PM	Hold Person prevents you from taking actions, thus you cannot levitate.
Eerongal 04-07-08, 04:01 PM	The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.) A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown. Paralyzed A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares. Levitate allows you to move yourself, another creature, or an object up and down as you wish. A creature must be willing to be levitated, and an object must be unattended or possessed by a willing creature. You can mentally direct the recipient to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round; doing so is a move action. You cannot move the recipient horizontally, but the recipient could clamber along the face of a cliff, for example, or push against a ceiling to move laterally (generally at half its base land speed). By these quotes, i would determine, yes, yes you could. But, obviously, levitate has to have been cast prior to paralysis (or in this case, drank prior as you said)
calronmoonflower 04-07-08, 06:19 PM	The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.) Levitate allows you to move yourself, another creature, or an object up and down as you wish. A creature must be willing to be levitated, and an object must be unattended or possessed by a willing creature. You can mentally direct the recipient to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round; doing so is a move action. You cannot move the recipient horizontally, but the recipient could clamber along the face of a cliff, for example, or push against a ceiling to move laterally (generally at half its base land speed). Using levtaion takes a move action, therefor you cannot use it.
Eerongal 04-07-08, 07:07 PM	Using levtaion takes a move action, therefor you cannot use it. youre paying attention to the wrong part of the spell. That part recaps paralysis, which is basically what paralysis says. The important part is that the spell paralyzes you, and paralyze specifically says you can take mental actions, and levitate states that its purely mental, but requires you to expend a move action to do.
calronmoonflower 04-07-08, 08:15 PM	youre paying attention to the wrong part of the spell. That part recaps paralysis, which is basically what paralysis says. The important part is that the spell paralyzes you, and paralyze specifically says you can take mental actions, and levitate states that its purely mental, but requires you to expend a move action to do. Well, I guess that is a valid interpretation. However, it doesn't mean my interpretation isn't valid. I suppose in the end it is a decision that the dungeon master must make.
Eerongal 04-08-08, 12:00 AM	Well, I guess that is a valid interpretation. However, it doesn't mean my interpretation isn't valid. I suppose in the end it is a decision that the dungeon master must make. True, and i can see where you're coming from, saying that the spell's specific wording is overriding the normal paralysis rules, correct? While I personally dont feel this is correct, it certainly could be a valid way to interpret it, and i see where youre coming from. But, hey, to each their own. Nothing i can say can make you think otherwise, and nothing you can say will change my mind, and in the long run, how you play has no effect on how I play, so it's all good :P
Radijs 04-08-08, 10:10 AM	The rules are a bit ambivalent yes. But I'd allow the paralyzed caster to levitate upwards despite him being paralyzed.
tos_shai_hulud 04-08-08, 11:23 AM	Well, I guess that is a valid interpretation. However, it doesn't mean my interpretation isn't valid. I suppose in the end it is a decision that the dungeon master must make. I dunno... attempting to shrug off the Hold Person is a full-round action, but if you are denied any actions in the sense of you cannot use a move action or a full-round action, then you cannot shrug off the Hold Person. Your interpretation denies the spell its own abilities. The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.) Emphasis mine.
calronmoonflower 04-08-08, 03:43 PM	I dunno... attempting to shrug off the Hold Person is a full-round action, but if you are denied any actions in the sense of you cannot use a move action or a full-round action, then you cannot shrug off the Hold Person. Your interpretation denies the spell its own abilities. Emphasis mine. Well it contradicts itself. As a specific exception is given it should be allowed.
Fitz10019 04-08-08, 04:09 PM	Levitate... is a move action I think the purpose of this description is to limit how much mental movement the levitating character takes. Just because it is a mental action, doesn't mean you get infinite movement. You can spend up to two moves actions (moving by mental command). As for the full-round action to save, the description is "may" attempt a saving throw as a full-round action. The saving throw is optional. The most obvious choice would be to delay, hoping someone dispells your paralysis and you can still get your turn in the same round.
sblaxman 04-08-08, 04:11 PM	I would definatly allow it, would be kind of funny seeing a guy floating around in a stuck pose. It's a pure mental action, and wouldn't be affected by not being able to move.
toucanbuzz 04-09-08, 10:09 AM	Thanks for the input, interesting takes on it and not a clear cut solution! To follow what happened, I did rule that day that my player could accomplish the levitation under the premise that it was a purely mental action that occupied a move action (even though there was no physical exertion to move). The wizard in question got away from the hell hound and made his save next turn. The hell hound (summoned) vanished below as the summon spell duration expired, and our wizard delivered via his hawk familiar a "Ghoul Touch" to the enemy caster, who failed his save. Crazily enough, reinforcements (hobgoblins) were on the way at the behest of the enemy caster and ran to him to get orders the next round....for those who have read up on "ghoul touch", this presented a little surprise for the poor hobgoblins.
Some_call_me_Tim 04-14-08, 07:46 PM	I believe that this is one of the cases where the specific rule, "you can take purely mental actions," overrides the general rule, "you cannot take any actions." What is a "purely mental" action is covered in the FAQ (p. 91) in reference to a question about psionics but it should apply to all cases. The "purely mental" actions listed are: cast a spell with no verbal, somatic, or material components use a spell-like ability communicate with telepathy concentrate to maintain a spell. dismiss a spell directing or redirecting an active spell lower your spell resistance make a Knowledge check The most obvious choice would be to delay, hoping someone dispells your paralysis and you can still get your turn in the same round. I think the rules are pretty clear on this one. You can't delay when you can't take actions. Inaction Even if you can’t take actions, (for instance, if you become paralyzed or unconscious), you retain your initiative score for the duration of the encounter. For example, when paralyzed by a ghoul, you may miss one or more actions, but once the cleric casts remove paralysis on you, you may act again on your next turn. --Player's Handbook v3.5, p. 137
Tedronai 04-14-08, 08:22 PM	I believe that this is one of the cases where the specific rule, "you can take purely mental actions," overrides the general rule, "you cannot take any actions." What is a "purely mental" action is covered in the FAQ (p. 91) in reference to a question about psionics but it should apply to all cases. The "purely mental" actions listed are: cast a spell with no verbal, somatic, or material components use a spell-like ability communicate with telepathy concentrate to maintain a spell. dismiss a spell directing or redirecting an active spell lower your spell resistance make a Knowledge check I think the rules are pretty clear on this one. You can't delay when you can't take actions. If delaying isn't a purely mental action, then I don't know what is. Either you can move via the Levitate, or you can't do anything (including delay). I'm in with the group that says you can't do anything... because the spell says so (except for the specifically listed exception of making a saving throw as a full-round action - which basically means that even if you make the save, you can't take any other actions except free, swift, or immediate actions until your NEXT turn). If you're desperate for an explanation of HOW paralysis prevents you from taking purely mental actions, justify it as this spell already being mind-affecting. Apparently it freezes your mental capabilities in the same manner as your physical capabilities. Everyone else can feel free to houserule to their hearts' content, but that's what it is.
calronmoonflower 04-14-08, 11:37 PM	I believe that this is one of the cases where the specific rule, "you can take purely mental actions," overrides the general rule, "you cannot take any actions." You got it backward. The specific rule is " cannot take any actions." and the general rule is "you can take purely mental actions,".
sblaxman 04-15-08, 11:19 AM	I fail to see what the problem is. The spell (hold person) says that you can make a purely mental action. Levitate is a mental action. nuff said
narack 04-15-08, 12:30 PM	can take not action would be stupid, breathing is a free action that mean hold person can kill you if it last too long
calronmoonflower 04-15-08, 02:29 PM	can take not action would be stupid, breathing is a free action that mean hold person can kill you if it last too long The spell says that you breath normally. Other than that breathing isn't listed as an action and requires movement (of the rib cage) in real life.
sblaxman 04-15-08, 08:04 PM	The reason I couldn't understand the confusion was that I use the 2e version, which contains this statement Held beings cannot move or speak, but they remain aware of events around them and can use abilities not requiring motion or speech. Being held does not prevent the worsening of the subjects' condition due to wounds, disease, or poison. From that, levitate works completely fine. I do believe the intent of the 3.x spell is the same, but due to the (one of many) not clearly written rules it's somewhat contradictory.
Tedronai 04-17-08, 09:38 PM	The reason I couldn't understand the confusion was that I use the 2e version, which contains this statement Held beings cannot move or speak, but they remain aware of events around them and can use abilities not requiring motion or speech. Being held does not prevent the worsening of the subjects' condition due to wounds, disease, or poison. From that, levitate works completely fine. I do believe the intent of the 3.x spell is the same, but due to the (one of many) not clearly written rules it's somewhat contradictory. So you don't understand the confusion because you're basing your understanding off of something entirely different, and frankly something irrelevant to the discussion?
Phrennzy 04-18-08, 12:47 AM	I'd allow levitate because it's a mental act, just like breaking the hold person spell (making a Will Save) is also a mental act. Also, the character is giving up a chance to break free for something else. And, it's inventive. I like that.
sblaxman 04-18-08, 06:36 PM	So you don't understand the confusion because you're basing your understanding off of something entirely different, and frankly something irrelevant to the discussion? I was confused because I didn't realize the wording had changed (much less clear IMO now than it was)
Chaser 04-29-08, 03:44 AM	A weak-willed wizard drinks a Potion of Levitation and then fails a save against Hold Person. Rather than fight to break the spell once per round as allowed, he wants to mentally Levitate his paralyzed body upwards to escape the summoned hell hound that is attacking him. Does he have the discretion to remain held, and if so, does Hold Person inhibit the ability to Levitate, which seems to be based on thought processes? No. Hold Person Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Target: One humanoid creature Duration: 1 round/level (D); see text Saving Throw: Will negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Cannot take any actions. There is no general exception listed, like mental actions. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.) One specific thing you can do: try to break the hold. If you manage it, you have burned a full round action, rather limiting you until your next initiative.
mvincent 04-29-08, 12:43 PM	breathing is a free actionNo. Breathing isn't any sort of action in D&D terminology. An example of a free action is say, drawing an arrow. Regardless, we can't expect the rules to always be perfectly written. The writer's intent seems to be that hold person simply paralyzes you. Both the writer of hold person and the writer of the Inaction description (mentioned above) evidently didn't consider mental actions.
sblaxman 04-29-08, 11:22 PM	Traditionally (read: ad&d) you could levetate under hold-person, the rules were clear. In 3.x, the rules unfortunatly are not 100% clear, so, as it always is in these cases, it is up to the DM to decide. Votes are fairly split here, so it's really your call