Lichdom and Outsiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lichdom and Outsiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
partyduk
07-26-07, 11:30 AM This has been a large debate among players and DMs alike. Can outsiders with the native subtype become undead? The problem arises when people take the native subtype into consideration.

I bring this up because of something someone suggested. What if one were to have a necromancer rakshasa (MM3) take levels in Dread Necromancer (HH). Would the character skip the lich transformation, or with the previous question, is it possible for a native outsider to achieve lichdom?
illyrus
07-26-07, 11:51 AM This doesn't directly answer the question, but there is the lichfiend variant from the Libris Mortus that allows outsiders to become liches.
Marcus Majarra
07-26-07, 12:29 PM Outsiders with the native subtype can become undead, but not liches. Monster Manual liches require that the base creature have the humanoid type.
runestar
07-26-07, 12:56 PM The concept of lichdom is that it typically requires you to rip out your soul and stuff it in a jar. This works fine for humanoids and any other race with body-soul duality, but falls apart for outsiders, since as per their MM entry, they explicitly lack this very body-soul duality. Even native outsiders.

I am pretty sure that native outsiders cannot become liches. That lichfiend variant is really a whole load of :censored:.
lint trap
07-26-07, 06:40 PM There's certainly precedent for outsiders keeping their souls/powers elsewhere. Wand of Orcus, anyone? Anyone running the Dead Gods campaign knows that was pretty much a phylactery for an undead god. And 1e demons had "demon talismans" they lost like car keys. I have no problem with non-native outsiders becoming liches.
queenfange
07-27-07, 01:50 PM I'd say technically, no, you can't turn an outsider into a liche, for the reasons runestar described.

However, as lint trap said, if an outsider could sort of rip his share of soul out of the general essense of the plane, somehow differentiated from others, like the Wand of Orcus or a set of talisman cart keys, then that soul could be shoved in a box, sold to a greater demon, etc. to become a lich or whatever other sort of undead template they want.

So, it's up to you. In my opinion, I'd think that on occasion, with good reason, it'd be fine. Throwing it around without explanation of why the exception has occured would be lame.

Very good question.

P.S. I can't stand DnD supplements that allow for exceptions to rules clearly stated in the main books without any good reason other than "We want to fill another book with crap to sell to you," as the lichfiend in Libris Mortus seems to be.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
partyduk 07-26-07, 11:30 AM	This has been a large debate among players and DMs alike. Can outsiders with the native subtype become undead? The problem arises when people take the native subtype into consideration. I bring this up because of something someone suggested. What if one were to have a necromancer rakshasa (MM3) take levels in Dread Necromancer (HH). Would the character skip the lich transformation, or with the previous question, is it possible for a native outsider to achieve lichdom?
illyrus 07-26-07, 11:51 AM	This doesn't directly answer the question, but there is the lichfiend variant from the Libris Mortus that allows outsiders to become liches.
Marcus Majarra 07-26-07, 12:29 PM	Outsiders with the native subtype can become undead, but not liches. Monster Manual liches require that the base creature have the humanoid type.
runestar 07-26-07, 12:56 PM	The concept of lichdom is that it typically requires you to rip out your soul and stuff it in a jar. This works fine for humanoids and any other race with body-soul duality, but falls apart for outsiders, since as per their MM entry, they explicitly lack this very body-soul duality. Even native outsiders. I am pretty sure that native outsiders cannot become liches. That lichfiend variant is really a whole load of :censored:.
lint trap 07-26-07, 06:40 PM	There's certainly precedent for outsiders keeping their souls/powers elsewhere. Wand of Orcus, anyone? Anyone running the Dead Gods campaign knows that was pretty much a phylactery for an undead god. And 1e demons had "demon talismans" they lost like car keys. I have no problem with non-native outsiders becoming liches.
queenfange 07-27-07, 01:50 PM	I'd say technically, no, you can't turn an outsider into a liche, for the reasons runestar described. However, as lint trap said, if an outsider could sort of rip his share of soul out of the general essense of the plane, somehow differentiated from others, like the Wand of Orcus or a set of talisman cart keys, then that soul could be shoved in a box, sold to a greater demon, etc. to become a lich or whatever other sort of undead template they want. So, it's up to you. In my opinion, I'd think that on occasion, with good reason, it'd be fine. Throwing it around without explanation of why the exception has occured would be lame. Very good question. P.S. I can't stand DnD supplements that allow for exceptions to rules clearly stated in the main books without any good reason other than "We want to fill another book with crap to sell to you," as the lichfiend in Libris Mortus seems to be.