Post/Author/DateTime	Post
trilistria 07-22-07, 02:35 PM	ok... I am at odds with myself on this one and need some help coming to a decision. I have a player who's PC wants to pursue lichdom. His character is a Human Half-Dragon with 5 levels of Survivior (savage species) and 10 levels of Ur-Priest (Book of Vile Darkness). Now Ur-Priest has a incredibly fast spell progression enabling the him to cast 9th level spells with only 10 caster levels... but requirements of becoming a lich are that you have 11 caster levels... should I stick to the ruling that he has to have 11 levels of caster dispite the fact that his character can cast higher level and more powerful spells than a 11th level caster? Or is the true intent of the 11th level requirement that a character should be in the power range to be able to cast 6th level spells?
Anathema 07-22-07, 02:53 PM	The game of D&D is very specific. If the intent was to be able to cast 6th level spells, it would state this, instead of the requirement for being 11th caster level. That said; how did he qualify for ur-priest? He would have to be 5th level by the ranks required alone. I would recommend against playing a high powered evil campaign without an intimate familiarity with the game.
trilistria 07-22-07, 03:06 PM	Simple slip of the fingers on the number pad ... should be 5 levels of survivior, not 2. And that was my original ruling,however I think he made a good argument that a character with 18 character levels and capable of casting 9th level spells should be able to pursue lichdom... thank you for your imput
Millennium 07-22-07, 03:06 PM	Although the intent can be debated back and forth (and probably does have more to do with being able to cast 6th-level spells), the RAW indeed say that he does need a caster level of 11 or higher. There are ways the character could get around this. While he doesn't have a patron deity (since he's an Ur-Priest), not all divine spellcasting PrCs require that he have a patron. A single level in any of these PrCs would be sufficient to get him the required caster level. Another option -though this would take longer- is to take a couple of levels in an arcane spelling class and then going for True Necromancer.
Anathema 07-22-07, 03:09 PM	Well, logical or not, you need to keep a reign on the power levels of your players. It's well within your rights as a DM to disallow him from pursuing a lich at all, or even from being evil to begin with. Which isn't to mention the question of where he's going to get 120'000 GP to afford the phylactery in the first place.
trilistria 07-22-07, 03:28 PM	Am aware of my ability to reign in players as a game master... while I may be fairly new to 3rd edition I have been been GMing (mainly second edition, WW, and COC) for 16 years. Hence I am perfectly comfortable running evil campaigns, and high level campaigns and campaigns with less than standard character races or classes. I don't have a problem with a halfdragon/Ur-priest/lich running around with a Imp/thief/shadowdancer, a Half-fiend/Illithid and a Rakshasa Psion that are doing their damnedest to subvert and gain control over the second largest kingdom in my world... more power to them... I also however like to be fair to my players, listen to their concerns and make fair decisions based on any logical arguements they may have. IN some cases, such as this, I like to get the opinion of other experienced third parties, to better help in my final decison, and if need be, help convince my players that it is the better choice. I dont want to debate over whether or not I am experienced, or if I need to reign my players in or not.. I just want a few experienced opinions on this particular matter, and for those opinions... I thank you.
Morwen 07-22-07, 03:47 PM	Which isn't to mention the question of where he's going to get 120'000 GP to afford the phylactery in the first place. 18th-level characters are expected to have 440,000gp, so that shouldn't be a problem :) I'd say go for it. No need to force him to take another level in a spellcasting class when he's already casting 9th level spells.
Merestil Haye 07-22-07, 07:02 PM	I'd say he requires a caster level of 11. Being able to cast 9th level spells does not suffice. The easiest route to Lichdom would be to allow him to take the Practiced Spellcaster feat. That gives him CL 14. More than enough. Alternatively, suggest he take two levels in another spellcasting class (not Cleric, for obvious reasons).
Sildatorak 07-22-07, 08:57 PM	You said he is a half-dragon, so here goes. The creature’s type changes to dragon. [snip] “Lich” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature No. On top of that, the prereq for the template is CL 11. CL 10 doesn't meet this, but he could take practiced caster to bump his CL by 4. This only matters if you're using the half-human rules from Races of Destiny.
Millennium 07-22-07, 10:29 PM	That's a good point that I hadn't thought of: technically half-dragons can't become liches. Do you suppose they could become dracoliches, though?
Anathema 07-22-07, 10:38 PM	That's a good point that I hadn't thought of: technically half-dragons can't become liches. Do you suppose they could become dracoliches, though? I suppose; but becoming a dracolich compared to becoming a lich is like comparing becoming a lich to multiclassing rogue.
Marcus Majarra 07-23-07, 08:43 AM	Actually, I find it mechanically easier to attain dracolichdom than lichdom.
eamon 07-23-07, 09:42 AM	Unless the character is overpowered and you don't want to give him even more rope with which to hang the campaign, I'ld let him ignore the CL requirement. There are virtually no classes for which the caster level scales like it does for the Ur-Priest, so when the liches specs were written, CL11 and the ability to cast 6th level spells were almost the same thing. He also has enough class levels, so it's not like he's entering his lichdom far too early... Of course, that's a really odd build right there - so it really depends on your campaign!
Marcus Majarra 07-23-07, 12:07 PM	CL11 and the ability to cast 6th level spells were almost the same thing. This, of course, is false. Bards and sorcerers, for example, cannot cast 6th-level spells at 11th level, and yet they qualify for the template. Ur-priests cannot qualify for lichdom without Practiced Spellcaster.
Meep326 07-23-07, 12:30 PM	Which isn't to mention the question of where he's going to get 120'000 GP to afford the phylactery in the first place. He could always blow a Wish/Mircle to do it, spending 5000 + twice the xp cost to create it instantly. Actually, I find it mechanically easier to attain dracolichdom than lichdom. Yep, my Gray Elf found a way to do it, but the DM said no 'casue he didn't want me to become a Lich.
eamon 07-23-07, 01:46 PM	This, of course, is false. Bards and sorcerers, for example, cannot cast 6th-level spells at 11th level, and yet they qualify for the template. Ur-priests cannot qualify for lichdom without Practiced Spellcaster. Yes, indeed, and neither can sorcerers - casting 6th level spells is a more restrictive demand than 11th cast level - almost always. Clearly, the Lich couldn't have been tailored for usage by the Ur-priest, and clearly, by RAW, the Urpriest cannot qualify with a mere 10 caster levels. A DM won't blow up his game because of it though, so you could allow it, that was my point.
Anathema 07-23-07, 04:16 PM	Of course it may very well have been the intent of the 11th caster level restriction of preventing someone who gains their full caster levels from a PrC from qualifying. ..and perhaps mechanically a dracolich might be easier to make, but definately not flavor wise. Shouldn't be, anyway.
Elessar 07-24-07, 06:53 PM	You said he is a half-dragon, so here goes. No. On top of that, the prereq for the template is CL 11. CL 10 doesn't meet this, but he could take practiced caster to bump his CL by 4. This only matters if you're using the half-human rules from Races of Destiny. As a half-dragon, he's still an Augmented Humanoid; Lady Vol from the Eberron Campaign setting is a lich half-dragon elf. In answer to the OP, I'd say that the intent behind the rule that they have to be an 11th level caster is not that they should be able to cast 6th level spells, but to prevent characters of less than 11th level from being able to become a lich. Since becoming a lich causes a sudden LA jump of +4, it seems clear to me that they're primarily intended as NPC villains, and the abilities that liches get for being liches are scaled for CRs of level 13 and up. So if your friend wants to become a lich and you have your heart set on allowing him, I'd say that his level is appropriate for being a lich even though that ruling bends the requirements a little. Just be aware that his LA will jump by +4 in that one change, and you should probably tell him that he's not going to gain XP for the next four levels or so to give his allies a chance to catch up. At least, that's what I'd do in that situation.
Marcus Majarra 07-25-07, 11:20 PM	As a half-dragon, he's still an Augmented Humanoid; Lady Vol from the Eberron Campaign setting is a lich half-dragon elf. Erandis d'Vol is an exception to the rule. The augmented subtype doesn't allow the creature to qualify as a creature of the augmented type. If that were the case, all augmented humanoids would be valid targets for spells like charm person. What augmented creatures do qualify for is for anything that targets their race. For example, a half-dragon human would be compatible with any effect that involves humans specifically (such as feats that require the creature be human).
Vharuck 07-26-07, 01:59 AM	As a half-dragon, he's still an Augmented Humanoid; Lady Vol from the Eberron Campaign setting is a lich half-dragon elf. She also became a lich at a very young age (I doubt she was an 11th level wizard then), and her mother is the one who turned her into a lich. She's not a very good precedent for rules; she's the plot-driven exception.