Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bambrig 06-29-07, 08:09 PM	I’ve been playing 3.0/3.5 rules for five or six years now (albeit, only about once a month) and I sill don’t understand the light/darkness rules very well. This hasn’t proven too big an obstacle thus far because nobody in our group has played much of a true rogue during those years or taken the Shadowdancer prestige class. I will be DMing a new campaign soon and one of the players wants to play a scout. This class has the Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS) ability and I decided to let him do it. To that end, I began researching the rules for HiPS. This led me to researching the various light/dark spells in the core books, then the light/dark/concealment spells in the supplement books, then the Hide skill, then the True Seeing spell, etc. Then I came to the WotC boards for clarifications and that didn’t do me much good either, as most of the questions were fragmented and not comprehensive in nature. In addition, some things just seemed unnecessarily difficult or contradictory. (Specifically, the two areas that confused me the most were 1) the interaction between light/dark spells and, 2) the interaction between normal and magical hiding and spotting.) In the end, I decided to make my own set of house rules on these topics to hopefully make a consistent, comprehensive system. As far as I can tell, these rules agree with the RAW in many ways (I have taken some of them verbatim) but depart in a couple of significant areas. I’m going to present my rules below and would appreciate any constructive comments about them. I’m not interested in discussion on how my set of rules compares to the RAW; I’m more interested in how it stands on its own. Thanks in advance for your interest, time and comments. LIGHT In an area of bright light all creatures can see clearly. A creature can not use Hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible, has cover, or has the Hide in plain sight ability. (and even then, Hide in Plain Sight would need to be within 10’ of a shadow – see DMG prestige class). DARKVISION A. Darkvision is the ability to see in normal shadowy conditions or normal darkness conditions. (The word “normal” is used here to distinguish from magical.) B. Darkvision does NOT penetrate magical darkness or magical shadow in any way. C. For a creature with darkvision capability (racial, spell, etc.), the first half of the range is considered normal vision (0% concealment) and the second half is considered shadowy conditions (20% concealment). Outside of the range is considered normal darkness conditions (50% concealment). For instance, in an unlit underground cavern, a dwarf with 60’ darkvision would see normally for 30’, see with shadows from greater than thirty feet out to 60’, and wouldn’t be able to see beyond 60’. D. Shadows or darkness alone do not provide the necessary conditions to make a Hide check versus something with darkvision (see Hiding below). HIDING (SKILL) A. Hiding falls into one of three categories – concealment, cover, or both. B. When only concealment or cover applies, then the check is straight Hide vs Spot. C. If both concealment and cover apply, a bonus +4 circumstance bonus to the check. D. Once hidden, if a creature’s condition for Hiding is removed, the creature is still no longer Hidden. Example: If a rogue is trying to Hide from a dwarven sentinel (darkvision), the rogue will need cover to do so within 30’ because there are no shadows (as far as the dwarf’s darkvision is concerned). If the rogue has cover within that 30’, then it is his Hide check vs the dwarf’s Spot. If the sentinel is human, the rogue doesn’t need cover to Hide within 30’, he only needs the concealment from the shadows. If the sentinel is human and the rogue has both cover and concealment, he gets an additional +4 to his Hide check. HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS) is a supernatural ability (that is, a magical ability) that allows a creature to Hide while being observed, so long as the creature is within 10’ of normal or magical shadows or magical darkness. Because this is a supernatural ability, it is subject to being suppressed within an antimagic field. Also, because it is a supernatural ability, darkvision does not penetrate it. SPELLS Here is a summary of the light/darkness spells in the PHB. 0th Level Spells Dark: None Light: Dancing Lights 2nd Level Spells Dark: Darkness Light: Continual Flame 3rd Level Spells Dark: Deeper Darkness Light: Daylight Light spells effectively counter and dispel darkness spells of equal or lower level – and vice versa. When two spells of equal level are brought against each other (such as darkness versus continual flame) the spells dispel each others’ effects and the prevailing lighting conditions now exist. Regardless of how much area overlaps, both spells are dispelled. Permanent magical effects (such as everburning torches) are not dispelled. Since the opposing spell isn’t a true dispel magic spell or counter spell, the magic will simply be suppressed for the duration. I have made changes to the following two spells: Continual Flame This spell is a 2nd level spell for all spellcasters (it is normally 3rd for divine and 2nd for arcane). True Seeing I am interpreting this spell to “see things as they actually are”. Things in normal shadow or darkness are “as they actually are” – so the spell does NOT “reveal” them. Things in magical shadow or magical darkness are not as they normally are – so the spell works on them. Also, this spell does not see what a naturally invisible creature looks like. This spell does not see through objects. Therefore, it does not reveal creatures hidden by cover. This spell DOES penetrate Hide in Plain Sight because it is a supernatural (magical) ability.
primemover003 06-29-07, 09:16 PM	Ok... Darkvision part C is just unneccessary. A Creature with darkvision sees normally to the range listed, breaking it into two pieces is silly and complicated things too much. Who would choose a creature with darkvision over Low-Light vision? In some cases it's better to have a small light source (torch) and see 120' (40' bright, 80 feet shadowy) than just the 60 feet most creatures with darkvision see. Hide is ok, though having cover and concealment should at best provide the Hider a +2 circumstance bonus to Hide. True seeing allows you to see through all illusions, normal and magical darkness, and transmutations to 120'. It does not allow you to see through smoke, fog, dust clouds and the like. This means you can still use spells like obscuring mist, fog cloud, even Smokesticks to provide some concealment. Dragons can still use their Hover ability to kick up a cloud to protect them from true seeing wizards! Two opposing spells don't dispel each other automatically unless you use one to counterspell the other. They suppress each other when they overlap. I think some of these house rules are too complicated. However I agree that the rules concerning Light and Darkness need a major overhaul. For example what amount of light does Moonlight provide a creature with normal vision? Starlight? What's the distance they can see??? Underground and Indoors is easy enough to adjucate, determining sight outdoors at night is tougher. Humans can see ok at night after about 45 minutes and that needs to be reflected in the rules a little (even if sight is only 10 to 30 feet).
Bambrig 06-29-07, 09:41 PM	Darkvision part C is just unneccessary. A Creature with darkvision sees normally to the range listed, breaking it into two pieces is silly and complicated things too much. Who would choose a creature with darkvision over Low-Light vision? In some cases it's better to have a small light source (torch) and see 120' (40' bright, 80 feet shadowy) than just the 60 feet most creatures with darkvision see. I thought about not putting this in but it just seems weird to me that darkvision just stops working immediately. If someone using a torch can see clearly for a certain distance, then go to shadowy, and then go to darkness, why should it be different for darkvision? I guess it complicates things a little but if we are already dealing with torches underground, and low light vision, and shadowy illumination, it didn't seem like too much more. Hide is ok, though having cover and concealment should at best provide the Hider a +2 circumstance bonus to Hide. I agree. True seeing allows you to see through all illusions, normal and magical darkness, and transmutations to 120'. It does not allow you to see through smoke, fog, dust clouds and the like. This means you can still use spells like obscuring mist, fog cloud, even Smokesticks to provide some concealment. Dragons can still use their Hover ability to kick up a cloud to protect them from true seeing wizards! The main reasons I put in this clarification was to solidify the magical vs nonmagical concealments and also to clarify Hide in Plain Sight. Two opposing spells don't dispel each other automatically unless you use one to counterspell the other. They suppress each other when they overlap. Two things here. First, I was pretty sure that under either darkness, deeper darkness or continual flame it states that light and dark spells counter and dispel those of equal or lesser value. Second, even if it doesn't say that, I think that having them dispel each other simplifies the situation and would help combat move along more quickly.
Ebonarc 06-29-07, 10:35 PM	Two things here. First, I was pretty sure that under either darkness, deeper darkness or continual flame it states that light and dark spells counter and dispel those of equal or lesser value. Second, even if it doesn't say that, I think that having them dispel each other simplifies the situation and would help combat move along more quickly. They can be used, by a spellcaster, to counter or dispel an opposing spell of equal or lesser spell level. Second, the difference between them dispelling each other and the two effects suppressing each other is essentially identical.
Bambrig 06-30-07, 08:00 AM	Ok. I get what you are both saying. It can be used to counter spell. The wording in continual flame is strange because it says it "can be used to counter and dispel darkness spells of equal or lower level". Countering is dispelling (right?), so to say "counter and dispel" seems to either be redundant or to imply two separate types of uses. But if we assume they simply worded it poorly, then by the RAW, if cast not specifically as a counter spell, continual flame would suppress darkness and it would be a matter of each spell's duration. Ok. So let me throw out this scenario: The PCs are in a small room in a dungeon lit by only a torch. The bad guys cast a deeper darkness spell in the room - the lighting is now shadowy. The PCs cast a daylight spell the next round. Both spells are suppressed and the torch is the only light again, right? Since deeper darkness has a duration of one day/level and daylight has a duration of 10 min/level, the deeper darkness spell will eventually come back to dominate the area. For combat purposes, however, the spells effectively nullify each other, since the durations are so long. A couple of rounds later the bad guys cast darkness. The next round the PCs cast daylight again. What happens now? Are both spells suppressed, even though daylight is the higher level spell? Or does the daylight "win", suppressing the darkness and still providing its own effect until the durations come into play? (Under the darkness spell it states, "Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness." Under the daylight spell it says, "Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect."
Ebonarc 06-30-07, 10:44 AM	Ok. So let me throw out this scenario: The PCs are in a small room in a dungeon lit by only a torch. The bad guys cast a deeper darkness spell in the room - the lighting is now shadowy. The PCs cast a daylight spell the next round. Both spells are suppressed and the torch is the only light again, right? Since deeper darkness has a duration of one day/level and daylight has a duration of 10 min/level, the deeper darkness spell will eventually come back to dominate the area. For combat purposes, however, the spells effectively nullify each other, since the durations are so long.Correct, but they only nullify each other where they overlap. A couple of rounds later the bad guys cast darkness. The next round the PCs cast daylight again. What happens now? Are both spells suppressed, even though daylight is the higher level spell? Or does the daylight "win", suppressing the darkness and still providing its own effect until the durations come into play? (Under the darkness spell it states, "Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness." Under the daylight spell it says, "Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect."Same situation. The two spells negate each other where their effects overlap.
Mystic Lemur 06-30-07, 12:06 PM	LIGHT In an area of bright light all creatures can see clearly. A creature can not use Hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible, has cover, or has the Hide in plain sight ability. (and even then, Hide in Plain Sight would need to be within 10’ of a shadow – see DMG prestige class). HIPS only needs to be w/in 10ft. of a shadow for the Shadowdancer ability. Other instances do not have this restriction. Just so you know. DARKVISION A. Darkvision is the ability to see in normal shadowy conditions or normal darkness conditions. (The word “normal” is used here to distinguish from magical.) B. Darkvision does NOT penetrate magical darkness or magical shadow in any way. C. -- D. Shadows or darkness alone do not provide the necessary conditions to make a Hide check versus something with darkvision (see Hiding below). All true except C. I know you think it's weird, but, being an extraordinary ability, it doesn't have to conform to our laws of physics. HIDING (SKILL) A. Hiding falls into one of three categories – concealment, cover, or both. B. When only concealment or cover applies, then the check is straight Hide vs Spot. C. If both concealment and cover apply, a bonus +4 circumstance bonus to the check. D. Once hidden, if a creature’s condition for Hiding is removed, the creature is still no longer Hidden. Example:... All true. Unless you made up the bonus. I don't want to check right now, cause I'm at work. HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS) is a supernatural ability (that is, a magical ability) that allows a creature to Hide while being observed, so long as the creature is within 10’ of normal or magical shadows or magical darkness. Because this is a supernatural ability, it is subject to being suppressed within an antimagic field. Also, because it is a supernatural ability, darkvision does not penetrate it. In most instances it is an extraordinary ability, not a supernatural ability. Although I believe it is for a shadowdancer. An antimagic field would not suppress a ranger's HiPS ability, for instance. And once again, darkvision is normally an (Ex) ability. SPELLS The gist is, a darkness spell can be dispelled (even after it has been cast) by a light spell of equal or higher level, and vice versa. This is a special interaction of these types of spells and it is described only in the spell descriptions, I believe. For instance, a drow uses darkness. The next round you cast daylight. The daylight cancels the darkness, and the lighting condition returns to whatever it was before he cast darkness. Oh, and true seeing does let you see in normal darkness.
primemover003 06-30-07, 12:07 PM	The main reasons I put in this clarification was to solidify the magical vs nonmagical concealments and also to clarify Hide in Plain Sight. The only difference between magical and mundane darkness is that creatures with darkvision can't see through the magical kind. That's it. Darkvision should have a gradiant because it can still function with a light source nearby. A dwarf crossbow sniper hides 60 feet away from his companions who sit within the light radius of a sunrod. He can see everything with in his darkvision range, everything in the bright lit area of the sunrod and sees into the shadowy area beyond the light to 60 feet but suffers the 20% miss chance against any tagets there.
Bambrig 06-30-07, 01:26 PM	All true except C. I know you think it's weird, but, being an extraordinary ability, it doesn't have to conform to our laws of physics. When I was thinking about this, I was thinking in terms of vision in general. If darkvision is an Extraordinary Ability, then I would be more inclined just to let it be. I haven't been able to find where it says darkvision is an Extraordinary Ability - could you tell me where you saw that? But even if it is an Extraordinary Ability, I would still think that it makes things easier to say normal darkvision doesn't penetrate magical darkness. (As a matter of fact, it probably makes even more sense because it would keep my delineation between nonmagical and magical vision and concealment.) From what I've read, it seems that the official ruling is that darkvision can see through a darkness spell but still suffers the 20% miss chance? That seems unnecessarily compicated. If darkvision doesn't penetrate magical darkness, it gets rid of this other special case. All true. Unless you made up the bonus. I don't want to check right now, cause I'm at work. I made up the bonus, as far as I know. In most instances it is an extraordinary ability, not a supernatural ability. Although I believe it is for a shadowdancer. An antimagic field would not suppress a ranger's HiPS ability, for instance. And once again, darkvision is normally an (Ex) ability. I'm only aware of two instances: the ranger version and the shadowdancer version. The ranger version is an Extraordinary Ability and the shadowdancer version is a Supernatural Ability. Are there others? The gist is, a darkness spell can be dispelled (even after it has been cast) by a light spell of equal or higher level, and vice versa. This is a special interaction of these types of spells and it is described only in the spell descriptions, I believe. For instance, a drow uses darkness. The next round you cast daylight. The daylight cancels the darkness, and the lighting condition returns to whatever it was before he cast darkness. So, in your interpretation, a continual flame spell will dispel a darkness spell, even if not used specifically as a counter spell? (Isn't this how haste/slow works?) This doesn't agree with what some of the other people are posting. For instance, Ebonarc suggests that the spells simply suppress and even then only in the exact areas in which they overlap. I'm more in favor of your interpretation because I think it simplifies the situation quite a bit, although I'd still like to know what the official ruling is. Oh, and true seeing does let you see in normal darkness. Yeah, I know that's what the spell description says but, again, I was trying to simplify things by making a clear delineation between magical and nonmagical shadows and darkness, making it so that the spell sees the concealments due to magic but not nonmagical concealments. One of the problems I have with the spell is that it seems to imply that things that are in the light are "as they are", whereas, things that are in nonmagical shadow or darkness are not "as they are". It seems to imply that normal light is superior to normal darkness in some way. Why would the spell penetrate nonmagical darkness yet not penetrate a nonmagical disguise? Again, a nonmagical/magical boundry seems cleaner, no? Thanks again for all the comments. Keep them coming...
weasel0 06-30-07, 03:15 PM	Well true seeing is a divination spell so why couldn't it seek out things hiding in the dark?
Bambrig 06-30-07, 04:59 PM	Well true seeing is a divination spell so why couldn't it seek out things hiding in the dark? It's not that I have issue with true seeing being able to see things hiding in the dark, it's the question of why it can see things in the nonmagical dark but not see nonmagical secret doors and nonmagical disguises. Why can it divine what's in the dark but not a disguise with normal clothes and make up? It seems, when reading the spell description, that the designers were sort of trying to draw a line between seeing magical vs nonmagical things but then they threw in nonmagical darkness, which just seems a bit inconsistent and arbitrary. In and of itself, it's not much of an issue but when combined with the rest of the confusion of light vs dark questions, it seems out of place to me.
Nom 07-01-07, 09:42 AM	Let's deal with lighting separately from light and darkness spells. Lighting conditions There are 3 lighting conditions: * Normal illumination - you can see normally. * Shadowy illumination - you can see, but not very well. * Total darkness - you can't see at all. Total darkness grants total concealment to any targets within it. You can't see them, you can't make AoOs against them, you can't target them with "targeted" spells, etc. Shadowy illumination grants concealment to any targets within it. Note that shadowy illumination isn't merely "not bright", it's "quite dark". It's not "cloud over the sun", but "yeah, I think that's a tree". Anything better is normal illumination. Occasionally, some creatures have special rules for "full daylight" (which might or might not include the daylight spell), but this distinction is normally irrelevant. Most light sources grant normal illumination out to a certain distance, and then shadowy illumination out to double that distance. To make things slightly confusing, creatures with low-light vision treat these ranges as double. Light sources are effectively bursts, and can be blocked or attenuated by things that affect line of sight (such as walls or fog). Darkvision ignores illumination out to its radius of effect, but cannot determine colour. A creature can (must) use darkvision and normal vision simultaneously. The "must" is significant if something is using gaze attacks in the dark, for example. Concealment Concealment is anything that makes you sufficiently harder to see. You can have concealment (sometimes called "partial concealment") or total concealment. A creature with total concealment is effectively invisible. A creature with partial concealment may be targeted as normal, but attacks requiring an attack roll suffer a miss chance. Concealment is always considered relative to observers. A creature might have total concealment from a human, partial concealment from an elf (low-light vision), and be fully visible to a goblin (darkvision). Concealment miss chances do not stack - use the "worst" that applies. Concealment miss chances do stack with other miss chances (eg incorporealness) - check each independently. Cover Cover is stuff that gets physically in the way of attacks. Cover applies a +4 (cover) bonus to AC, assuming some avenue of attack exists. If no avenue of attack exists then you have total cover and cannot normally be attacked at all. Cover can be hard (walls) or soft (creatures). Hard cover grants a +2 Ref save bonus in addition to the AC bonus, and allows hiding. Hiding Hiding is attempting to use cover or concealment to prevent others from visually noticing you. Once they have noticed you, you cannot hide unless you can get them to stop noticing you (or qualify for Hide in Plain Sight - note that there is a ranger version and a shadowdancer version and they have different requirements). If you have total cover or total concealement, you don't need to Hide. If you have non-total cover or concealment, you can make a Hide check (opposed by Spot) to remain unnoticed as you move out from total cover/concealment. Remember that you may have differing levels of cover/concealment from some creatures than from others.
Nom 07-01-07, 09:51 AM	Light and Darkness magic Light and Darkness spells can be used to counter or dispel each other, as long as the target spell is not higher level than the countering or dispelling spell. Note that this specifically applies to using a light or darkness spell as a counterspell (negate during casting) or a dispel (negate existing spell). In addition to this, most Light and Darkness spells are explicitly unaffected by lower level opposing spells. This is not the same as countering or dispelling. Countering or dispelling negates both spells totally, regardless of remaining durations. Suppressing is different. Neither spell ceases to exist, but the lower level spell has no effect while occupying the area of effect of the more powerful spell. Example 1: a light spell (level 0) gains no special ability to penetrate the shadows cast by darkness (level 2). Example 2: a daylight spell (level 3) suppresses the effect of darkness within it's radius. Example 3: daylight (level 3) and deeper darkness (also level 3) cancel out within their overlapping radius (and suppress any weaker light or darkness spells), so that mundane conditions prevail. Example 4: daylight could also be used to remove (dispel) a deeper darkness (or darkness) spell, completely removing (as opposed to merely cancelling the effect of) each spell.