Limits on what you can summon... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Limits on what you can summon... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fineous
04-06-07, 01:47 AM I don't know if I read this in 3.0 or what but isn't reasonable to forbid a druid from summoning an animal from a terrain or climate she is unfamiliar with? For instance: A druid from the desert would not know how to summon a polar bear or a druid from the deep forest, far from any ocean, would not know how to summon an octopus into his local neighborhood lake? For that matter, would you allow a druid who might have knowledge of the ocean to summon a salt water creature in a body of fresh water? Anybody read any official rules on this?
runestar
04-06-07, 02:55 AM That sounds more like dm fiat than any official ruling I am aware of.:)
Geogoose
04-06-07, 07:56 AM It is fantasy. Perhaps the druid of a remote climate uses his summon spells to converse with animals he has never seen locally, simply to understand them and thier native lands better.
meabolex
04-06-07, 12:37 PM You're most likely thinking of the wildshape restriction:

From the 3.5 SRD
The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

Which means if the druid has never seen a polar bear, he can't shapeshift into it. Same with dinosaurs, etc.
mvincent
04-06-07, 01:53 PM I don't know if I read this in 3.0 or what but isn't reasonable to forbid a druid from summoning an animal from a terrain or climate she is unfamiliar with?I don't believe it's stated in the rules anywhere, but that is reasonable (and has some precedence).
Burgundy Lotus
04-07-07, 11:23 PM I don't know if I read this in 3.0 or what but isn't reasonable to forbid a druid from summoning an animal from a terrain or climate she is unfamiliar with? For instance: A druid from the desert would not know how to summon a polar bear or a druid from the deep forest, far from any ocean, would not know how to summon an octopus into his local neighborhood lake? For that matter, would you allow a druid who might have knowledge of the ocean to summon a salt water creature in a body of fresh water? Anybody read any official rules on this?

I believe that it has to be able to survive in it's surroundings so the salt water creature in fresh water wouldn't work (though I'm not sure where I read that), otherwise it's all within the rules.
weasel0
04-08-07, 03:04 AM Salt water creatures will survive in the fresh water for the length of the spell duration. It's just really uncomfortable. All the extra salt would probably kill fresh water creatures though.
Soel Griffin
04-09-07, 03:46 AM You're most likely thinking of the wildshape restriction:
Which means if the druid has never seen a polar bear, he can't shapeshift into it. Same with dinosaurs, etc.

Yes, which all too often gets convienently forgotten on these boards.
runestar
04-09-07, 04:46 AM Yes, which all too often gets convienently forgotten on these boards.
Not necessarily forgotten, just assumed that the player in question will find some means of accommodating this limitation. Perhaps with scrying or summon spells?:)
Wopple
04-09-07, 09:54 AM I think whenever they learned the spell from their god they would know what they could summon. I mean, how do they know which animals to summon at which levels? Obviously this gives them a comprihensive list.

Also, I am not a nature buff, but I know what a squid is (never seen one, can't swim well), a polar bear, a lion, etc. I have never set foot in a place that has them, or seem them in real life. But druids, presumptiously, ARE nature buffs. And while I have never seen a polar bear myself, if I could summon one and command it, I know it'd do me better than a rat in a fight.
Marcus Majarra
04-09-07, 01:38 PM Also, I am not a nature buff, but I know what a squid is (never seen one, can't swim well), a polar bear, a lion, etc. I have never set foot in a place that has them, or seem them in real life. But druids, presumptiously, ARE nature buffs. And while I have never seen a polar bear myself, if I could summon one and command it, I know it'd do me better than a rat in a fight.

Careful there. In real life, access to information is made particularly easy, especially with the advent of sophisticated telecommunication modes, like radio, television, and the Internet. Not to mention that education is mandatory for many, which also serves to broaden our scope of knowledge, despite our lack of experience with the subject of said knowledge.

It's doubtful that D&D worlds fall into this category (save maybe for Eberron, but it still doesn't come close to the real world), so it's quite possible that a tropical druid might have never heard of polar animals or plants.
Burgundy Lotus
04-09-07, 02:10 PM so it's quite possible that a tropical druid might have never heard of polar animals or plants.

Or even snow, distance plays a large part in knowledge without instant access through radio, TV or the like so something that is common where you are might be unheard of as little as 100 miles away.
Fitz10019
04-09-07, 09:53 PM So is it a Knowledge Nature check (DC based on climate disparity), or an automatic No?
For this topic, I always think of the Thoqqua from SNA3. Would hearing a story about such a creaure be enough familiarity? Do you have to have seen one? Touched one?
Kazgoth
04-09-07, 10:22 PM I think it would really depend on how you look at it. Either saying he must have some knowledge of his summoned beast or not isn't really a game breaking issue, so as long as your player is aware of what you expect before your game starts I think whatever you think adds the most flavor is the best spice.
Kouk
04-09-07, 11:25 PM I think you should also consider the arcane Summon Monster spell. Odds would be that the character hasn't seen most of what he can summon, especially the fiendish and celestial varieties.

I personally feel that a character can summon about anything on the list, or at least something he has "heard of". I see it as if you know the name or general abilities of a creature you can ask the magic of the spell to bring you one.

The spells don't say anything about who can summon what (although if you summon something evil with Summon Monster that becomes an evil spell and may not be castable by a good cleric etc.) There also is no caveat added to the druid's ability to spontaneously convert spells into summons, the way there is with wild shape.

There are rules about summoning creatures into the wrong kind of water, something about getting fatigued but it is an optional rule I think.

I would chalk it up to it being a spell and that as written you can summon anything on the list with no problems. If you want to change it, go ahead.
weasel0
04-10-07, 08:22 PM Know a kid back in high school days, had come to America straight from Africa. Had NO idea what snow was. Boy was he confused when the first fall hit. :lol
Krusk
04-11-07, 02:05 AM Im a fan of the limit on summons. 1 type of animal per point of wisdom mod.

summon monster X wis of 18, this character can summon : cat bird fish dog. their choice of course.

keeps the game running smooth, because now there is no lull of "i am summoning something ill figure it out by next turn. Oops i didnt even get to that ill spend 4 hours figuring out stats".
WolfHati
04-11-07, 04:11 AM Summoning a creature for 6 seconds x level is hardly enough to study it very well, certainly not enough to emulate its form well enough to survive, or maybe even move properly.

If you had 5 minutes a day to study for a biology exam, I'm pretty sure you'd fail...

As for summoning, I say as long as you have enough knowledge of a creature to know generally what it is, you can summon it. As for keeping the game running smooth, just have them keep a copy of creatures they know how to summon handy, any others they can't summon in combat, or get to pass their turn while they look it up.
Marcus Majarra
04-11-07, 02:53 PM Summoning doesn't require any special knowledge on the character's part. Every spellcaster knows exactly what the spells he can cast can do. I'll agree, however, that merely summoning a creature is not enough for a druid to emulate it through wild shape.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fineous 04-06-07, 01:47 AM	I don't know if I read this in 3.0 or what but isn't reasonable to forbid a druid from summoning an animal from a terrain or climate she is unfamiliar with? For instance: A druid from the desert would not know how to summon a polar bear or a druid from the deep forest, far from any ocean, would not know how to summon an octopus into his local neighborhood lake? For that matter, would you allow a druid who might have knowledge of the ocean to summon a salt water creature in a body of fresh water? Anybody read any official rules on this?
runestar 04-06-07, 02:55 AM	That sounds more like dm fiat than any official ruling I am aware of.:)
Geogoose 04-06-07, 07:56 AM	It is fantasy. Perhaps the druid of a remote climate uses his summon spells to converse with animals he has never seen locally, simply to understand them and thier native lands better.
meabolex 04-06-07, 12:37 PM	You're most likely thinking of the wildshape restriction: From the 3.5 SRD The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. Which means if the druid has never seen a polar bear, he can't shapeshift into it. Same with dinosaurs, etc.
mvincent 04-06-07, 01:53 PM	I don't know if I read this in 3.0 or what but isn't reasonable to forbid a druid from summoning an animal from a terrain or climate she is unfamiliar with?I don't believe it's stated in the rules anywhere, but that is reasonable (and has some precedence).
Burgundy Lotus 04-07-07, 11:23 PM	I don't know if I read this in 3.0 or what but isn't reasonable to forbid a druid from summoning an animal from a terrain or climate she is unfamiliar with? For instance: A druid from the desert would not know how to summon a polar bear or a druid from the deep forest, far from any ocean, would not know how to summon an octopus into his local neighborhood lake? For that matter, would you allow a druid who might have knowledge of the ocean to summon a salt water creature in a body of fresh water? Anybody read any official rules on this? I believe that it has to be able to survive in it's surroundings so the salt water creature in fresh water wouldn't work (though I'm not sure where I read that), otherwise it's all within the rules.
weasel0 04-08-07, 03:04 AM	Salt water creatures will survive in the fresh water for the length of the spell duration. It's just really uncomfortable. All the extra salt would probably kill fresh water creatures though.
Soel Griffin 04-09-07, 03:46 AM	You're most likely thinking of the wildshape restriction: Which means if the druid has never seen a polar bear, he can't shapeshift into it. Same with dinosaurs, etc. Yes, which all too often gets convienently forgotten on these boards.
runestar 04-09-07, 04:46 AM	Yes, which all too often gets convienently forgotten on these boards. Not necessarily forgotten, just assumed that the player in question will find some means of accommodating this limitation. Perhaps with scrying or summon spells?:)
Wopple 04-09-07, 09:54 AM	I think whenever they learned the spell from their god they would know what they could summon. I mean, how do they know which animals to summon at which levels? Obviously this gives them a comprihensive list. Also, I am not a nature buff, but I know what a squid is (never seen one, can't swim well), a polar bear, a lion, etc. I have never set foot in a place that has them, or seem them in real life. But druids, presumptiously, ARE nature buffs. And while I have never seen a polar bear myself, if I could summon one and command it, I know it'd do me better than a rat in a fight.
Marcus Majarra 04-09-07, 01:38 PM	Also, I am not a nature buff, but I know what a squid is (never seen one, can't swim well), a polar bear, a lion, etc. I have never set foot in a place that has them, or seem them in real life. But druids, presumptiously, ARE nature buffs. And while I have never seen a polar bear myself, if I could summon one and command it, I know it'd do me better than a rat in a fight. Careful there. In real life, access to information is made particularly easy, especially with the advent of sophisticated telecommunication modes, like radio, television, and the Internet. Not to mention that education is mandatory for many, which also serves to broaden our scope of knowledge, despite our lack of experience with the subject of said knowledge. It's doubtful that D&D worlds fall into this category (save maybe for Eberron, but it still doesn't come close to the real world), so it's quite possible that a tropical druid might have never heard of polar animals or plants.
Burgundy Lotus 04-09-07, 02:10 PM	so it's quite possible that a tropical druid might have never heard of polar animals or plants. Or even snow, distance plays a large part in knowledge without instant access through radio, TV or the like so something that is common where you are might be unheard of as little as 100 miles away.
Fitz10019 04-09-07, 09:53 PM	So is it a Knowledge Nature check (DC based on climate disparity), or an automatic No? For this topic, I always think of the Thoqqua from SNA3. Would hearing a story about such a creaure be enough familiarity? Do you have to have seen one? Touched one?
Kazgoth 04-09-07, 10:22 PM	I think it would really depend on how you look at it. Either saying he must have some knowledge of his summoned beast or not isn't really a game breaking issue, so as long as your player is aware of what you expect before your game starts I think whatever you think adds the most flavor is the best spice.
Kouk 04-09-07, 11:25 PM	I think you should also consider the arcane Summon Monster spell. Odds would be that the character hasn't seen most of what he can summon, especially the fiendish and celestial varieties. I personally feel that a character can summon about anything on the list, or at least something he has "heard of". I see it as if you know the name or general abilities of a creature you can ask the magic of the spell to bring you one. The spells don't say anything about who can summon what (although if you summon something evil with Summon Monster that becomes an evil spell and may not be castable by a good cleric etc.) There also is no caveat added to the druid's ability to spontaneously convert spells into summons, the way there is with wild shape. There are rules about summoning creatures into the wrong kind of water, something about getting fatigued but it is an optional rule I think. I would chalk it up to it being a spell and that as written you can summon anything on the list with no problems. If you want to change it, go ahead.
weasel0 04-10-07, 08:22 PM	Know a kid back in high school days, had come to America straight from Africa. Had NO idea what snow was. Boy was he confused when the first fall hit. :lol
Krusk 04-11-07, 02:05 AM	Im a fan of the limit on summons. 1 type of animal per point of wisdom mod. summon monster X wis of 18, this character can summon : cat bird fish dog. their choice of course. keeps the game running smooth, because now there is no lull of "i am summoning something ill figure it out by next turn. Oops i didnt even get to that ill spend 4 hours figuring out stats".
WolfHati 04-11-07, 04:11 AM	Summoning a creature for 6 seconds x level is hardly enough to study it very well, certainly not enough to emulate its form well enough to survive, or maybe even move properly. If you had 5 minutes a day to study for a biology exam, I'm pretty sure you'd fail... As for summoning, I say as long as you have enough knowledge of a creature to know generally what it is, you can summon it. As for keeping the game running smooth, just have them keep a copy of creatures they know how to summon handy, any others they can't summon in combat, or get to pass their turn while they look it up.
Marcus Majarra 04-11-07, 02:53 PM	Summoning doesn't require any special knowledge on the character's part. Every spellcaster knows exactly what the spells he can cast can do. I'll agree, however, that merely summoning a creature is not enough for a druid to emulate it through wild shape.