Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bek 09-23-07, 01:09 PM	Here is the background that I feel is important, so all my fellow DMs understand the situation - if you aren't the background type, skip this paragraph and go to the next one for the heart of the issue. I have a player who is the quintessential rules-lawyer type, always looking for a loophole. He has almost derailed games in the past. He is currently playing a wizard, and has Forge Ring. Last session he approached me about creating a Ring of Telekinesis that would be usable at will. As a veteran player as well as DM the first thing that came to mind was the potential for abuse of the Telekinesis "violent thrust" ability. So I asked him to clarify what he intended to DO with said item, if given permission to create one. He responded that he was going to use the item to meet the requirements for the Master of the Unseen Hand prestige class from Complete Warrior, and then be "much better than most Masters because he would have TK at will..." So I shuddered, and asked him were he got the idea that a prestige classes' spell casting requirements could be fulfilled with a magic item. Complete Warrior was his reply. In Complete Warrior, pg. 62, in the MINDSPY prestige class entry, the last sentence of the second paragraph reads: "Spellcasters sometimes take levels in the prestige class if they can cast detect thought frequently, or if they have a helm of telepathy to enable the mindspy's class features." Then in the Requirements section under Spells it states: "Able to cast detect thoughts spell or to use detect thoughts as a spell-like ability." He then used this as his logical progression that since the entry requirements for Master of the Unseen Hand (Complete Warrior, pg.60) under Spells it states: "Able to cast the telekinesis spell, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability." His theory being that he could forge a Ring of Telekinesis that would allow use of the spell at will, thereby not only allowing himself access to the prestige class but the ability to use things like the "Fling Skyward" class feature with no limitation on the number of times per day that a wizard would normally be forced to endure. As this is not only potentially, but also realistically, devastating to fair game play I denied the request. I am concern however about the possibility of questions of this type in the future. So I submit this to you, my fellow DMs for review: Can a magic item be used to activate class features? What about for things like a Ring of Evasion and the Improved Evasion class feature? Although one could always adjudicate on a case-by-case basis, that would inevitably lead to decision in favor of those players a DM likes (or trusts not to abuse privileges) and decisions against others. I am looking for a rule with no exceptions :D but I settle for a rule that is generally true. Thanks all.
Sildatorak 09-23-07, 01:49 PM	I would allow him to use the ring's telekinesis to activate abilities of the prestige class, but I would definitely not allow him to use the ring to meet the entry requirement. The only features of it that are problematic at all would possibly be Fling Skyward. Considering that it is a single target, will negates, SR allowed 1d6/level ability, I don't see the problem with it. Following this PrC to the end will give the character less power than 5 levels of wizard would. In general, I only let magic items allow for qualification for a PrC if they are indirectly meeting requirements (e.g. gauntlets of ogre power to boost strength enough to qualify for a feat that is needed) or if they are providing the equivalent of feats (e.g. bracers of striking granting improved unarmed strike). Casting requirements and class features have to be met by the character without magical enhancement (unless that enhancement is something indirect like boosting Int enough to allow her to cast 5th level spells).
Khadmus 09-23-07, 01:54 PM	I don't see the magic item ability being "spell-like" or "supernatural". Furthermore, telekinesis at will would be expensive. Finally, the endnotes of PrCs are often stupid. The sample NPCs, specifically. The malconvoker springs to mind, as does the Master of Nine.
heffroncm 09-23-07, 01:55 PM	You can qualify for a prestige class with a magic item, and if the prestige class has abilities that are based on using an ability that the item has, they work. The Mindspy and Master of the Unseen Hand are two good examples. The problem is you need a custom magic item for Master of the Unseen Hand. For one, the pricing on an at-will command-word Telekinesis ring would likely be rather high, as it is an excedingly useful item which definitely should not fall into the DMG pricing guidelines. The guidelines set the price at 81,000gp for such an item, I would think double that would not be amiss for what it can do. Remember, Telekenesis at will also effectively emulates the 2nd-level Master of the Unseen Hand class feature, which lets you change from one form of Telekinesis to another at will while the effect is active. Another concern with the item is the caster level. Assume he invests in making the item as soon as he can, caster level 9. He'll need to forge a new ring every few levels to keep up with Spell Resistance on the monsters, or he'll find that his super-cool at will Telekinesis becomes rather useless by level 13. Every time he makes a new ring, that's a new expenditure, and costs more each time as the higher caster level demands more expensive materials. This would bypass the Improved Caster Level class feature, as the ring is generating the effect. He could certainly use Improved Caster Level to forge a level-appropriate Ring, but things such as metamagic and caster level are set at the creation of the item. Also, remember that Fling Skyward has all the restrictions of Violent Thrust, which means 25 lbs per Caster Level and a hardcap of 375 lbs ever. The average Human Fighter with Tower Shield, Full Plate, Longsword, Longbow, and 40 Arrows (nothing else at all) weighs 284 lbs, and would not be a target for Fling Skyward until caster level 12. Most people will have some means of dealing with airborne situations by that level. Basically, it's perfectly allowable. Be careful on your pricing and you'll stop it from being an issue. It's a matter of adapting your encounters to stay challenging, nothing that needs to be Rule 0'd away.
calronmoonflower 09-23-07, 08:01 PM	Using an item is not casting a spell. Therefor it cannot meet the requirements.
DM Zoc 09-23-07, 09:20 PM	Using an item does indeed grant access to the spell-like ability, and I'm 99% certain that it's legal rules-as-written, and at least 70% certain that it's also rules-as-intended. I'm slightly confused about this "ring of telekinesis, usable at will" question because the default ring in the DMG is indeed usable at will. Try thinking about the mechanics from an in-game perspective. Feats and prestige classes only ask for pre-requisites that would allow you to learn the abilities in question: you have to be bright enough to practice combat expertise, you have to be able to fly before you can learn to hover, and you have to be able to take another shape before you can push your shapechanging limits as a warshaper. There's no physical difference between someone with 13 natural strength and 13 augmented strength (as from gauntlets of ogre power). It might seem kind of cheesy from a meta-game perspective, but in-game in makes perfect sense. The Master of the Unseen Hand is no different; anyone with a ring of telekinesis can practice throwing things around as per the spell. In some ways it would be easier, since the person with a ring can get more practice in any given day. On the other hand, if anything ever happens to that ring, the character is out on a bunch of class features (just as the fighter in the above example would have a useless feat if something ever happened to his gloves).
calronmoonflower 09-23-07, 09:37 PM	Using an item does indeed grant access to the spell-like ability, and I'm 99% certain that it's legal rules-as-written, and at least 70% certain that it's also rules-as-intended. You mind quoting the Rules As Written on the subject then?
DM Zoc 09-23-07, 09:57 PM	You mind quoting the Rules As Written on the subject then? If I knew where it said this, I would have linked it or at least mentioned it. Likewise, if it was easy to find, the question would never have been asked. I'll certainly come let everyone know if I can find it. If it means anything, the people who frequent the Character Optimization board all seem to think this is the case, and they know RAW better than anyone. And, of course, there's always rule zero.
calronmoonflower 09-23-07, 10:02 PM	Well according to page 315 of the Monster Manuel a spell-like ability's DC is based off a creatures Cha modifier. Spells from magical items are based off the minimum that is used to cast the spell. Therefor a magical item does not grant a spell-life ability.
Novabomb 09-23-07, 10:12 PM	Yes a magic item can be used to meet requirements. I do not remember the specific requirements for MotUH, so I cannot say whether the item in question actually meets the requirement. From a balance point of view the wizard is crippling himself by taking the class, it does not progress casting.
Marcus Majarra 09-24-07, 01:05 AM	A magic item can be used to meet requirements for a PrC as long as the item provides the said requirement. Now, unless you have an item that grants you the ability to cast telekinesis or use it as a spell-like ability (which is not equivalent to using a commard-word or use-activated item), you can't meet the requirements for MotUH with it.
Bek 09-24-07, 11:46 AM	I'm slightly confused about this "ring of telekinesis, usable at will" question because the default ring in the DMG is indeed usable at will. To clarify: the PC wanted to create his ring, and was not going to attempt to lower his creation cost by going to a 3 uses/day or something of the sort. Since the current trend (see Magic Item Compendium) seems to be toward creation of lower cost items with charges or uses per day, I wanted to make it clear the PC in question was NOT considering that option.
heffroncm 09-24-07, 11:51 AM	To clarify: the PC wanted to create his ring, and was not going to attempt to lower his creation cost by going to a 3 uses/day or something of the sort. Since the current trend (see Magic Item Compendium) seems to be toward creation of lower cost items with charges or uses per day, I wanted to make it clear the PC in question was NOT considering that option. Well, there is a ring in the game that does it already, in the DMG, that anyone with the right recquirements can make...
april151978 09-24-07, 01:42 PM	Me playing :devil:'s advocate... What about making a requirment to have a spell cast upon you and made permenant as a prerequisite for a PrC?...
Puca 09-24-07, 04:14 PM	In Complete Warrior, pg. 62, in the MINDSPY prestige class entry, the last sentence of the second paragraph reads: "Spellcasters sometimes take levels in the prestige class if they can cast detect thought frequently, or if they have a helm of telepathy to enable the mindspy's class features." Then in the Requirements section under Spells it states: "Able to cast detect thoughts spell or to use detect thoughts as a spell-like ability." He then used this as his logical progression that since the entry requirements for Master of the Unseen Hand (Complete Warrior, pg.60) under Spells it states: "Able to cast the telekinesis spell, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability." Even if the Mindspy can qualify with an item, which at least according to your quoted sections, it doesnt, that doesnt not mean it follows that all other PrCs with similarly worded prereqs can as well. :pbbbtt: for his bad argument. Now, as to whether or not you can use items in general, a RAW interpretation is pretty easy to arrive at. Using an item is not casting a spell, niether is it a access to a SLA or Supernatural Ability. It just isnt. To say that a ring qualifies by the RAW requires a written rule published somewhere say that it "counts as access" and I am not aware of any. If there is, then well the RAW is then just as clear. That doesnt mean I wouldnt allow it. It just means it would be a houserule. In this case, Id have to look at the gains to be sure, but in my gut, I wouldnt allow it. Certain creatures can qualify, but in general, PCs need a minimum of nine levels in a caster class to qualify. And that seems pretty crucial to allow it to be circumvented by an item. Like Sildatorak, I would let him use the ring with the PrC abilities, but not qualify.
lulzapalooza 09-25-07, 02:39 PM	No, magical items never meet the requirements for the prestige class.
weasel0 09-25-07, 10:13 PM	Yes, magic items are legit was to qualify for both feats and PRCs. The drawback is if you lose the effect, you lose access to the feats/class abilities until such a time wherein you regain the specified lost prerequisites for lost feat and/or class. However, the gauntlet has been thrown down. So turn around and use logic against his. He's using the Mindspy as the benchmark right? Well, let's do the same. The Mindspy is a case specific example and had the MotUH been written with the same example, it'd be legal. It does not provide the same qualifications loophole and thus is not able to use the same trick. And then Rule 0 it.
lulzapalooza 09-26-07, 05:16 PM	Yes, magic items are legit was to qualify for both feats and PRCs. The drawback is if you lose the effect, you lose access to the feats/class abilities until such a time wherein you regain the specified lost prerequisites for lost feat and/or class. What?! No, that's insane. I think you're just wrong.
Sildatorak 09-26-07, 05:40 PM	Yes, magic items are legit was to qualify for both feats and PRCs. The drawback is if you lose the effect, you lose access to the feats/class abilities until such a time wherein you regain the specified lost prerequisites for lost feat and/or class.In this case the Ring of Telekinesis won't provide the prereq, though. The Mindspy is a case specific example and had the MotUH been written with the same example, it'd be legal. It does not provide the same qualifications loophole and thus is not able to use the same trick. And then Rule 0 it.The mindspy in question is just using the helm of telepathy to utilize class features, not to actually qualify.
weasel0 09-26-07, 09:23 PM	Okay, so I could have sworn I'd seen this point addressed somewhere but my use of the search function is turning up nothing. However, no prerequisite ever dictates how it must be fullfilled. Creative players should be rewarded. Players who have creative cheese however, is a different story. "Able to cast the telekinesis spell, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability." The ring in this case would fulfill "Able to cast the telekinesis spell,..." If he takes off the ring, he loses access to abilities and the ability to take more levels in the MotUH. If you want to argue that it's merely activating the spell.... well that's what real casters do. Wizs have the spell memorized, sorcs have the patterns laid out and then they activate it in their minds. Or use a something or other of spell-storing so it really is a spell that is being cast. Or have a rod. A rod casts a spell as either it was cast on or the person who's using it if better. This is simply how I'd rule. And then I'd start using anti-magic, dead magic zones, Modin's Disjunction and other such things to mess with his ability to use the class. Also, I don't have that book in front of me, so I'm only going by what OP has listed as the spell req. By strict RAW, this does work, though it may not be RAI.
TwiddleStootch 09-26-07, 09:27 PM	Just throwing in my 2 coppers... I only allow Magic Items to be used for Qualifications when it has to do with an ability score. Be it for feat or PrC, an Item that boosts an ability score is a fine way to qualify IMO. However, I would not allow the use of any other items for Qualifications. Would a magical item that grants a Fly speed allow you to take the Hover feat? No. Same for spell casting requirements.
weasel0 09-26-07, 09:38 PM	I like that rule of thumb. I'm merely arguing the RAW point as the devil's advocate here really. RAW in this case is cheesy and deserves the Chair of Salvation as the only way to redeem "Steve"
Sildatorak 09-26-07, 10:15 PM	"Able to cast the telekinesis spell, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability."The only items that I could see as being arguably "casting" would be scrolls. Activation: Usually, a ring’s ability is activated by a command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity)In the case of the ring, it is activating a command word item, not casting a spell. The character is still using TK, but they are not casting it, nor is it coming from a spell-like or supernatural ability.
weasel0 09-26-07, 10:25 PM	Sildatorak: Fair enough.
Puca 09-26-07, 10:30 PM	Using an item is not casting a spell. There are two separate sections of the book, in whole different chapters, explaining what it takes to cast a spell and what it takes to activate different sorts of items. There is no room here for argument. Honestly, does the mere possession of an item make me a spellcaster? Edit: Oops. Little late on that.
heffroncm 09-26-07, 11:11 PM	It would, however, work fine from a Wand or a Scroll, or a custom Spell Completion or Spell Trigger ring, as these are treated just as casting the spell.
Puca 09-26-07, 11:41 PM	No! No it wouldnt. Casting a spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm) is not the same as activating a spell trigger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger) or a spell completion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion) item. When, where, how, and by whom are they treated as "casting a spell." I do see the similarity: you do something, and the effect occurs. But that "thing" is only casting in actual spellcasting. If you arent a spellcaster, you cant cast spells. You cant just buy and item and qualify for a PrC as though you did.
Jhulae 09-27-07, 01:51 AM	Even though it's not specifically stated the wording strongly implies that the character in question has to be a spellcaster (not just able to use a scroll or wand via UMD) of a high enough level to utilize specific spell levels or specific spells -or- be able to, as the character's own innate powers (ie, if the PC was dressed in just regular clothing with no items), utilize a specific spell as a spell-like ability. Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell: Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Rings and the like are command word activated. They do not meet the requirements of SLAs. Also, because if the PC doesn't have the item, they can also be considered as 'foci', again, not meeting the requirement of what an SLA is. So, while the specifics are silent, the intent is fairly plain. Any attempt to circumvent requirements via items is really going against the spirit of the rules.
heffroncm 09-27-07, 01:54 AM	Spell completion items are treated as casting a spell, going so far as to have it pointed out in multiple places that they act the same way as casting a spell. There is no reason a bunch of Scrolls can't qualify you for the spellcasting recquirements of a prestige class, just like a ring that grants Weapon Proficiency in Long Sword would qualify one for Abjurant Champion. Now, it's pretty pointless in almost every case to qualify for a class through the use of scrolls. You're not going to be able to do it as early as an actual caster, as you'd need at least a Use Magic Device modifier of 19+Spell Level to gurauntee succesful use. Also, most classes with spellcasting recquirements have the main bonus of making your spellcasting better, something that anyone qualifying with Scroll usage is going to find useless. Master of the Unseen Hand is perhaps the one exception. You'd need to find a way to get a multiple-use Spell Completion custom item to make it worthwhile, and even then you're better off not touching it as a full caster. However, as a Rogue / Monk with Able Learner, it'd make for some awesome flavor. Still, you're better off doing other things. So, in every single example that I can come up with, being able to qualify for a Prestige Class with a Spell Completion item, which is used just like casting a spell, is fine. It's not going to hurt game balance, and is in fact a pretty dumb idea for anyone doing it. As for the corraborating evidence, both the Spell Completion entry and the Scroll entry mention how Spell Completion works like casting a spell. The character is casting it, his stats set the DC, the scroll determines the caster level. Anyway, if you don't want to allow it, don't allow it. It's not going to hurt your game any, besides leaving an option open for your players to screw themselves. It's just another example of what's screwed up with 3.x rules.
Jhulae 09-27-07, 03:26 AM	It's just another example of what's screwed up with 3.x rules. No, it's an example of people who don't use common sense in rules application. Sure, it'd be great to have the rules written out detailing *every* single exception and case, but then we'd end up with book that read like the wargame Advanced Squad Leader or Star Fleet Battles. And we'd be carrying around a book the size of Ptolus just for the basic rules, nevermind stuff in the DMG.
Jhulae 09-27-07, 03:31 AM	Spell completion items are treated as casting a spell, going so far as to have it pointed out in multiple places that they act the same way as casting a spell. There is no reason a bunch of Scrolls can't qualify you for the spellcasting recquirements of a prestige class, just like a ring that grants Weapon Proficiency in Long Sword would qualify one for Abjurant Champion. Except that to use a spell completion item (like a scroll or wand), one must have the spell on their spell list. Someone using UMD doesn't have a spell list or the ability to cast spells. They have the ability to (possibly) activate a spell completion item. Using UMD =/= the ability to cast spells.
Puca 09-27-07, 07:22 AM	As for the corraborating evidence, both the Spell Completion entry and the Scroll entry mention how Spell Completion works like casting a spell. The character is casting it, his stats set the DC, the scroll determines the caster level.It can be “like casting a spell” it 99 of 100 possible ways. The fact is though that it is not actually casting. So, in every single example that I can come up with, being able to qualify for a Prestige Class with a Spell Completion item, which is used just like casting a spell, is fine. It's not going to hurt game balance, and is in fact a pretty dumb idea for anyone doing it.This is precisely the problem though. You are establishing a precedent and cant possibly see all the potential consequences. “Ability to cast spell x” functions as a limiting prerequisite in several ways, and you dont want to arbitrarily get rid of those limits even if you havent seen a problem in this specific instance.
weasel0 09-28-07, 12:49 AM	Except that to use a spell completion item (like a scroll or wand), one must have the spell on their spell list. Someone using UMD doesn't have a spell list or the ability to cast spells. They have the ability to (possibly) activate a spell completion item. Using UMD =/= the ability to cast spells. I've always felt it was more of a "No. Really. I'm a caster and you really are on my list." sort'a thing. It's specified as "tricking" the item into casting. So in that matter no you don't "have" to have it on your list, only make the item think you do. And I agree, it doesn't grant the ability to cast spells, but it makes whatever it is your dealing with believe you do. It's a really specific version of bluff.
Jhulae 09-28-07, 02:33 AM	I've always felt it was more of a "No. Really. I'm a caster and you really are on my list." sort'a thing. It's specified as "tricking" the item into casting. So in that matter no you don't "have" to have it on your list, only make the item think you do. And I agree, it doesn't grant the ability to cast spells, but it makes whatever it is your dealing with believe you do. It's a really specific version of bluff. Which, again, doesn't allow one to qualify for a prestige class. If a prestige class specified "12 skill ranks of Perform" and you had no perform but 12 Ranks of Bluff, you wouldn't qualify, no matter how well you could fake it. If a prestige class specified "Bardic Knowledge" and even though you could weave a believable story about an item (via Bluff, or even find out about items via Knowledge:History) you wouldn't qualify for the prestige class. What spell list does a Rogue 5 have? How many spells per day does a Fighter 10 get? None. They can't cast spells. Not now, not ever (unless they multiclass, but that's not what we're discussing here).
DMCuindless 09-28-07, 04:55 AM	"Able to cast the telekinesis spell, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability." Okay, this is the requirement for this particular prestige class. If the PC in question has a magic item that "grants the caster the ability to cast telekinesis at will as a spell-like ability", do you think that would allow the PC to take the prestige class in question?
Jhulae 09-28-07, 08:26 AM	Okay, this is the requirement for this particular prestige class. If the PC in question has a magic item that "grants the caster the ability to cast telekinesis at will as a spell-like ability", do you think that would allow the PC to take the prestige class in question? Nope. The PC in question only has an item (and such an item would be prohibitively expensive in the first place.) Spell-like or Supernatural abilities are inherently part of the nature of a creature and are given in race descriptions. If a PC wanted to use a Wish to be able to use Telekinesis as a spell like ability (and wouldn't that be a fun wish to screw with) then that would qualify.
heffroncm 09-28-07, 08:49 AM	Nope. The PC in question only has an item (and such an item would be prohibitively expensive in the first place.) Spell-like or Supernatural abilities are inherently part of the nature of a creature and are given in race descriptions. If a PC wanted to use a Wish to be able to use Telekinesis as a spell like ability (and wouldn't that be a fun wish to screw with) then that would qualify. Except that it WOULD allow entry! They would be at a potentially big disadvantage, because if they ever lost the item they would lose all benefits of the Prestige Class except BaB, skills, and HP. Spell Like and Supernatural abilities are not an inherent part of every creature that has them. I'd like to point out the Warlock, based entirely on Spell-Like Abilities, and the Binder, based entirely on Supernatural Abilities. Savage Species established, with the Supernatural Transformation feat, that the wording for a Racial spell-like or supernatural ability is "inherent." The PrC in quesiton does not recquire an inherent spell-like or supernatural ability, just having the ability at all. I guess the questions for you seems to be one of levels. You won't allow someone to use an item to qualify for a spellcasting prerequisite, no matter the exact effect of the item. Let's establish a gradient, using the Warhulk class from Miniature's Handbook. Warhulk recquires the Cleave feat, +5 Base Attack Bonus, and Large or larger size. Would you allow someone with an item that grants Cleave to qualify for War Hulk? What about an item that grants permanent Enlarge Person for War Hulk? How about a 5th level Rogue with an item of permanent Divine Power? Would someone be able to qualify if they only had Cleave because of the +4 Strength item that let them take Power Attack?
Jhulae 09-28-07, 07:42 PM	Except that it WOULD allow entry! They would be at a potentially big disadvantage, because if they ever lost the item they would lose all benefits of the Prestige Class except BaB, skills, and HP. Spell Like and Supernatural abilities are not an inherent part of every creature that has them. I'd like to point out the Warlock, based entirely on Spell-Like Abilities, and the Binder, based entirely on Supernatural Abilities. Savage Species established, with the Supernatural Transformation feat, that the wording for a Racial spell-like or supernatural ability is "inherent." The PrC in quesiton does not recquire an inherent spell-like or supernatural ability, just having the ability at all. I guess the questions for you seems to be one of levels. You won't allow someone to use an item to qualify for a spellcasting prerequisite, no matter the exact effect of the item. Let's establish a gradient, using the Warhulk class from Miniature's Handbook. Warhulk recquires the Cleave feat, +5 Base Attack Bonus, and Large or larger size. Would you allow someone with an item that grants Cleave to qualify for War Hulk? What about an item that grants permanent Enlarge Person for War Hulk? How about a 5th level Rogue with an item of permanent Divine Power? Would someone be able to qualify if they only had Cleave because of the +4 Strength item that let them take Power Attack? No. You don't possess the cleave feat. You possess an item. No. You're not a large creature. You possess doubled height because of an item (which may *not* even make you large, depending on your initial height). No. You don't have the proper BAB or Str or whatever. You have an item. And, they wouldn't be taking power attack if they didn't 'inherently' (IE have an unmodified strength) necessary for the feat. The feat isn't written on your sheet under your feats, it's written under Items. You don't posess the feat, you possess an item. Items don't qualify you for prestige classes.
heffroncm 09-28-07, 11:29 PM	According you what you've said, items can't qualify you for feats either. That's a fine gradient to establish, but I'd like to know why you believe they don't. I'm trying to find actual supporting RAW for either side of the argument, but can't seem to come up with anything to quote. I've always operated under the assumption that an item can fulfill a prerequisite, and I believe there is a quote to that effect, and I'm going to find it soon as I can.
Jhulae 09-28-07, 11:55 PM	According you what you've said, items can't qualify you for feats either. That's a fine gradient to establish, but I'd like to know why you believe they don't. I'm trying to find actual supporting RAW for either side of the argument, but can't seem to come up with anything to quote. I've always operated under the assumption that an item can fulfill a prerequisite, and I believe there is a quote to that effect, and I'm going to find it soon as I can. Because an item isn't part of your character. In essence, magic items are 'temporary effects' on the character. Regardless of whether or not I wear a ring that grants me Cleave, it *can* go away if the ring is disjoined or I take it off or whatever. Regardless of how long I wear a headband of intellect, I'm not getting any skill points for it. However, if I take Cleave as my 3rd level feat, it's part of my character. It's not temporary. If I boost my Int to 14 from 13, I'm now getting 1 more skill point per level from this point forward. While this is specifically on prestige classes that have something such as "5th level spellcaster" as a requirement, it sets a *very* good precident. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats, class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”) Temporary effects (again, including spells or magic items) don't allow one to bypass requriements of a prestige class. If a character can't qualify for a prestige class if they have absolutely no equipment (except a spellbook in the case of Wizards and the like) and have no spell effects on them, they don't qualify for the prestige class.
heffroncm 09-29-07, 12:00 AM	The example you put forth never refers to a recquirement of caster level though. That FAQ entry doesn't make any rules decisions, it simply clears up an ambiguous wording. 5th level spellcaster is not the same thing as caster level 5, they are two seperate stats, which should be obvious on it's own. I'm still trying to find a quote that actually points out what can be used to qualfy for feats and prestige classes.
Jhulae 09-29-07, 12:12 AM	The example you put forth never refers to a recquirement of caster level though. That FAQ entry doesn't make any rules decisions, it simply clears up an ambiguous wording. 5th level spellcaster is not the same thing as caster level 5, they are two seperate stats, which should be obvious on it's own. I'm still trying to find a quote that actually points out what can be used to qualfy for feats and prestige classes. Actually, does mean the same thing. I think what you mean being different are "Spellcaster level 5" versus "Able to cast 5th level spells". Those are quite different. Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires “Spellcaster level 5th”? No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats, class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”) And now we're really getting down to arguing semantics. Regardless, though, the answer of having temporary effects being able to qualify one for a prestige class says volumes enough for me.
weasel0 09-29-07, 12:28 AM	Qualify for feats using Magic Items (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=924172&highlight=magic+item+ability+modify+feat ) A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it D&D FAQ v.3.5 39 Update Version: 06/15/07 requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only when she wears the item? Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from the item. So why can't this apply to PRCs? They are things that rely on what the character can do. If a magic item "permanantly"(the PC is "never" going to take it off) gives the PC the ability, it is there and is valid for qualifying for things they would not otherwise be able to. It is not "against" the rules to allow it. The rules do not disallow it, and presidence has been set by the feats rules of "cheating" to quailify.
Puca 09-29-07, 12:44 AM	The prereq in this case though is the ability to cast. The items under discussion do not give that ability. When a character with a 15 DEX puts on a pair of gloves of dexterity, you can argue that he does in fact have a 19 DEX for as long as they are on. This isnt the same as having an ability score that is higher based on an enhancement bonus. Possessing a ring or having a scroll cannot be argued as haivng the ability to cast. Can you meet the Weapon Focus prerequisite for Weapon Specialization by having a masterwork sword? Of course not, because the prereq isnt merely having a +1 to hit; it is having a particular feat, which incidentally happens to grant a +1 to hit. The prereq for MotUSH isnt the mere ability to create a Telekinesis effect: it is the ability to do so by casting the spell or with a supernatural ability or an SLA. Very specifically worded. If it isnt casting a spell, an SLA, or an SNA, then you do not meet the prereq.
Jhulae 09-29-07, 12:53 AM	Qualify for feats using Magic Items (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=924172&highlight=magic+item+ability+modify+feat ) So why can't this apply to PRCs? They are things that rely on what the character can do. If a magic item "permanantly"(the PC is "never" going to take it off) gives the PC the ability, it is there and is valid for qualifying for things they would not otherwise be able to. It is not "against" the rules to allow it. The rules do not disallow it, and presidence has been set by the feats rules of "cheating" to quailify. And it's a case of two different answers being conflicting. Ultimately, I suppose it's up to the DM to be the final arbitrator. My feeling is there's nothing 'prestigous' about sleazing one's way into a class and that Items are temporary bonuses. Puca succinctly gave my thoughts on items and why they don't qualify.
heffroncm 09-29-07, 01:17 AM	Actually, does mean the same thing. I think what you mean being different are "Spellcaster level 5" versus "Able to cast 5th level spells". Those are quite different. No, that is not what I mean. Caster Level is a specific stat that has specific effects on the game. It is used to determine almost every effect of various spells, from ability to penetrate Spell Resistance, to range, to damage, to area effected, and etc. Your level in a spellcasting class is a different stat, which is also important. It determines how many spells you can cast per day for each spell level, and what your highest spell level known is. The two are usually equal, but can be modified by feats, special classes, items, spells, and other abilities. The prestige class in your example recquires you to be a 5th level spellcaster. This can be fulfilled with 5 levels of Wizard, 5 levels of Cleric, 5 levels of Paladin equally well. Even though the Paladin has a Caster Level of 1/2 his Class Level, he is still a 5th level Spellcaster. This exact example is used in the FAQ. We've established and agreed that you can't get into MotUH with the ring in the DMG. The larger question then becomes, can an item grant entry if it fulfills the exact recquirement? I forge a custom ring that grants me the continous ability to use Telekinesis as a spell-like ability at will. That's me using the ability, the ring just grants the power to do so. I don't cast it from the ring, I don't activate the ring, I just use the ability, which can only be used while wearing the ring. Does this work? Much more clear would be the War Hulk example of earlier. Can I get in with an item that increases my Base Attack Bonus continuously? And item that gives me the Cleave feat continuously? An item that gives me the Power Attack feat, so I can qualify for the Cleave feat on my own? An item that gives me the 13 STR I need to take Power Attack, and then Cleave? An item that makes me Large or larger continuosly? Which, if any, of these conditions can be met with an item? Now, assume a class that recquires 14 Int to take. If you start with a 12 Int, can you get in with a Headband of Intellect +2 with the Enhancement bonus? How about by reading a Tome of Clear Thought +2 with the granted Inherent bonus? This is a bonus, not a change to the base stat. Am I recquire to use the stat increases at level 4 and 8 to enter this class, or can I get in early with a Headband, Tome, or Wish for various bonuses? I'm not trying to be patronizing. I'm trying to establish a gradient of what is normally allowed in a situation that is not covered by RAW. Qualifying for feats with a magic item is allowed. Qualifying for a prestige class is not, and I'd like to know what people think and why. For me, it's all or nothing. Either you can take up a path of training with item-granted abilities, or not. Feats are allowed, so I see no reason to disallow classes.
weasel0 09-29-07, 01:59 AM	As I said earlier, no matter how it's sliced, it is cheesy to cheat into a PRC like such, and honestly I wouldn't allow it. I argued the opposing because there is no RAW basis to go either way and arguing one way is right, one way is wrong because of how you feel, isn't the way to discuss these things. Heffroncm: You're point is interesting. If by RAW we can mod our way into feats, why not into PRCs? I don't think this is RAI. My opinion, nothing more. But (obviously), I do know that the rules are silent, and by RAW it's already partially allowed. I use magic item A to boost my str. I use my new str to take power attack and cleave(RAW). I use my legal feats to take PRC X. So yes, it's a valid question to ask: Why not skip straight to items that grant the feat to get into the class? Answer: Because it cheapens the game and tries to laugh at everyone else who honestly work within the rules to achieve the same results. Anything worth doing, is worth being done properly. And you always feel more satisfaction about doing something honsetly than circumventing the intent of the rules. Same reason no one should be using Pun Pun. Yes he's legal. But he ruins the game for everyone else.
Puca 09-29-07, 02:03 AM	I forge a custom ring that grants me the continous ability to use Telekinesis as a spell-like ability at will. That's me using the ability, the ring just grants the power to do so. I don't cast it from the ring, I don't activate the ring, I just use the ability, which can only be used while wearing the ring. Does this work? Thats a huge "if" though. Magic items just dont give SLAs. But, if the item did, them I would have to say you do have that SLA for as long as you have the ring. Much more clear would be the War Hulk example of earlier. Can I get in with an item that increases my Base Attack Bonus continuously? I cannot imagine such an item even being allowed. It seems contrary to hat BAB is. If you add to it, it isnt any longer a "base." And item that gives me the Cleave feat continuously? An item that gives me the Power Attack feat, so I can qualify for the Cleave feat on my own? An item that gives me the 13 STR I need to take Power Attack, and then Cleave?I think all of these exist. An item that makes me Large or larger continuosly? Which, if any, of these conditions can be met with an item?I could see this being crafted. Now, assume a class that recquires 14 Int to take. If you start with a 12 Int, can you get in with a Headband of Intellect +2 with the Enhancement bonus? How about by reading a Tome of Clear Thought +2 with the granted Inherent bonus? This is a bonus, not a change to the base stat. Am I recquire to use the stat increases at level 4 and 8 to enter this class, or can I get in early with a Headband, Tome, or Wish for various bonuses?This all seems consistent with the feat prereqs that weasel0 posted. Of course, I dont know that any PrCs have such prereqs. I'm not trying to be patronizing. I'm trying to establish a gradient of what is normally allowed in a situation that is not covered by RAW. Qualifying for feats with a magic item is allowed. Qualifying for a prestige class is not, and I'd like to know what people think and why.Between the RAW and the FAQ, I think it is all pretty well covered.
heffroncm 09-29-07, 07:09 AM	Puca, an item of continuous Divine Power would change someone's Base Attak Bonus to equal their Character Level. Such an item should never be allowed, but I was discussing the hypothetical. Weasel0, I get where you are coming from. We differ on a fundamental base. You see using an item to meet a Prestige Class recquirement as cheating your way in. I see it as just an interesting RP choice. Fantasy literature is full of characters who are as much based on their equipment as anything else. Potential characters with item-based Prestige Classes in my mind would be He-Man, the Ringwraiths, InuYasha, King Arthur, and Cloud from Advent Children. It's way to early, I know there are more that I can't think of. The game allows for item-based characters with Weapons of Legacy, but that book introduces an item-based prestige class. Also, there are a number of prestige classes that focus on a particular weapon or other piece of mundane gear. I think it's an interesting RP option to base your character's further developement on your equipment.
Druss_of_The_Sword 09-29-07, 01:03 PM	Ive actually tried that with an arcane trickster. i was going to use the mage hand as the entry requirement. but i was warned by my DM that he would allow it but if i was say a level 8 rougue and level 10 arcan trickster then upon losing that item i would be a level 8 character. i ended up refusing but what do you guys think of that?
weasel0 09-29-07, 01:18 PM	I think you'd be a lv 8 rogue, with 10 extra lvls of hp BAB and saves and nothing else. You still have the levels(as with feats), you just don't have access to what they allow you to do. Heffroncm, I'll have to go pull my WoL back out. I don't get to use it much as I don't get to DM much. Our normal DM is a very stick in the mud when it comes to non-core(anything not the big 3), and we play with the FR books. And if he doesn't party wipe us, he abandons campains between 8-10 because "It's too powerful."
Sildatorak 09-29-07, 01:51 PM	Puca succinctly gave my thoughts on items and why they don't qualify.Puca was saying that items that do actually give you an ability (rather than doing whatever it was that ability does) would allow you to qualify. There is not a significant difference between a guy with 13 strength who wears gauntlets and a guy with 11 strength who wears gauntlets of ogre power. From a mechanical standpoint, there is an increased vulnerability for the guy with the lower strength since he could lose the boost due to anti-magic attacks, but I can't see any sensible reason for him to be kept out of a prestige class due to in-game reasons or out-of-game balance concerns. As long as you aren't allowing for abusive custom items, I really don't see this as being much of an issue, honestly. I can only think of two items off the top of my head that give you a feat rather than giving you a benefit (and those give alertness and improved unarmed strike), and I feel strongly that the enhancement bonus items are pretty cut-and-dry by the RAI.
Puca 09-29-07, 01:59 PM	Puca, an item of continuous Divine Power would change someone's Base Attak Bonus to equal their Character Level. Such an item should never be allowed, but I was discussing the hypothetical.But there is a point where you have to go look at more than the hypothetical. I mean, ok, so you can increase BAB with an item. But if such an item will never exist, that is a pretty important fact. The game allows for item-based characters with Weapons of Legacy, but that book introduces an item-based prestige class. Also, there are a number of prestige classes that focus on a particular weapon or other piece of mundane gear. I think it's an interesting RP option to base your character's further developement on your equipment. But you should be very, very concerned when you are talking aobut entry to PrC. Yes, there are PrCs that focus on items, but there are also a lot of PrCs that have prereqs limiting who can enter them, at what cost, and when. A PrC that requires a certain BAB, for example, is possibly as much in intent as in effect, deciding not just the earliest level at which one can enter, but the earliest level at with specific classes can enter. This is not a matter that I think should be dismissed lightly.
DrMorganes 09-29-07, 02:33 PM	I see no reason NOT to allow a PC to use a magic item to qualify for entry into a prestige class. If the player wants to risk X levels of character development going *poof* because some rogue hits him with a sap and steals the shiny ring on his finger, or an enemy wizard hits him with a Disjunction, let him. Puca makes good points about how this may impact what class can enter a given prestige class. This, like all things relating to prestige classes, should be addressed on a case-by-case basis. Under no circumstances should a magic item allow entry into a PrC early; needing 8 ranks in Hide means you can enter the class at Character Level 6. Having a +3 Hide item at Level 4 should not negate this! In ALL cases, character wealth levels should be enforced.
Jhulae 09-29-07, 10:45 PM	I see no reason NOT to allow a PC to use a magic item to qualify for entry into a prestige class. If the player wants to risk X levels of character development going *poof* because some rogue hits him with a sap and steals the shiny ring on his finger, or an enemy wizard hits him with a Disjunction, let him. Puca makes good points about how this may impact what class can enter a given prestige class. This, like all things relating to prestige classes, should be addressed on a case-by-case basis. Under no circumstances should a magic item allow entry into a PrC early; needing 8 ranks in Hide means you can enter the class at Character Level 6. Having a +3 Hide item at Level 4 should not negate this! In ALL cases, character wealth levels should be enforced. Except, that if you're going to allow magic items to allow entry into prestige classes to begin with, why even worry about any level requirement? Magic items can blow the doors off almost anything you'd need to normally work for to get into it. Need a BAB of +8 for that Uber-Whatzit and you're a mage? Oh, no worry. Just buy an item. Hell, don't even bother with that.. Just cast a spell just before you level that boosts your BAB up (there's a wizard spell that gives fighter BAB).. You don't even need to know the spell. Just cast it from a scroll! That, I think, gets down to the crux of the matter. Why even bother having entry requriements for PRCs when they can be completely blown off by purchasing the correct gear? I'm going to go as far as saying I don't even agree with the FAQ (and usually I do) with the Magic Items allowing you to qualify for Feats. I believe that if you're going to write something permanent on your character sheet (such as a feat), your character should meet all the requirements without adding anything from equipment or spell effects.
Jhulae 09-29-07, 10:53 PM	Now, assume a class that recquires 14 Int to take. If you start with a 12 Int, can you get in with a Headband of Intellect +2 with the Enhancement bonus? How about by reading a Tome of Clear Thought +2 with the granted Inherent bonus? This is a bonus, not a change to the base stat. Am I recquire to use the stat increases at level 4 and 8 to enter this class, or can I get in early with a Headband, Tome, or Wish for various bonuses? I'm just going to answer this part because how I feel has been made clear elsewhere. The headband doesn't work for reasons I've mentioned in mulitple posts. Wishes or Tomes actually boost your stats. They're a permanent change to your character sheet. They're given specific bonus name (Inherent) so that you don't just sit down and read 10 tomes of clear thought and get a +10 to +50 boost (provided your character had the cash) nor sit down and read 5 tomes +1 to overcome having to pony up the cash for a +5 tome. However, as "Inherent" implies, they're going to always be a part of your character. They're not added to the 'temporary' section on the sheet. They never go away. If the BBEG stripped your character nekkid, cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction on her from 8 am to 8 pm (and that's a lot of Disjoining going on), then tossed her into a cell with a permanent Anti Magic Field, she'd still have the inherent bonuses to stats. You'd get extra skill points in any subsequent levels for that boost of Int. Its exactly the same as if you'd spent a stat point at 4th, 8th, etc. There's a reason why a +2 headband costs 4000 gold and a Tome of Clear Thought +2 costs 55k. Now, if you can't see the differences between a Tome of Clear Thought (or a wish) and a Headband of Intellect, then really, there's no more need for discussion because it'll just be pointless.
heffroncm 09-30-07, 04:56 PM	Sorry if I stepped on your toes here Jhulae. I was just trying to expand on the problem here. Thanks for stating where you stand on it. To sum up, that would be Wishes and Tomes are the only thing that one can use to qualify for Feats or Prestige Classes. I do see a differance between a Tome and a Headband. The Tome can't be dispelled or supressed in any way I know of, while the Headband can. I don't see it as changing a character's natural ability, as you can only benefit from one Tome. As to the pricing, a Tome +5 has the same price tag as 5 Tome +1's. A fairly common houserule in this area is the ability add up tomes and wishes used at seperate times to get up to a +5, but that has no bearing on the discussion at hand. Basically, everyone has to decide for tehmselves. Going on the Feat FAQ entry, I think it's fine to allow. It gives the player's more options, and that is something I'm always a fan of. Then again, I don't have players that try to steal the spotlight.
Jhulae 09-30-07, 10:25 PM	Sorry if I stepped on your toes here Jhulae. I was just trying to expand on the problem here. Thanks for stating where you stand on it. To sum up, that would be Wishes and Tomes are the only thing that one can use to qualify for Feats or Prestige Classes. I do see a differance between a Tome and a Headband. The Tome can't be dispelled or supressed in any way I know of, while the Headband can. I don't see it as changing a character's natural ability, as you can only benefit from one Tome. As to the pricing, a Tome +5 has the same price tag as 5 Tome +1's. A fairly common houserule in this area is the ability add up tomes and wishes used at seperate times to get up to a +5, but that has no bearing on the discussion at hand. Basically, everyone has to decide for tehmselves. Going on the Feat FAQ entry, I think it's fine to allow. It gives the player's more options, and that is something I'm always a fan of. Then again, I don't have players that try to steal the spotlight. You didn't step on my toes, but there is a definite difference between the items. As for the price, while five +1 tomes do add up to the same cost, if you wanted to benefit from a +5 Inherent bonus, you would need to put all that cash *up front*. That's a lot of coin and what I meant. And, it's not quite true that you can only benefit from one tome. If you read a better tome later, you get the better bonus - it overrides the lower one. That's why it's called an "Inherent bonus". Bonuses of the same type don't stack, but the best bonus is the one that's used. (Just like an Enhancement bonus, really, except it never goes away and is capped at +5.) But, yeah.. The bottom line for me is that if your character couldn't qualify for something if she were totally nekkid, then I wouldn't allow it. Everything else just seems to be twinking the system, and there's already enough of that going on, it seems.
Sildatorak 10-01-07, 12:11 AM	Except, that if you're going to allow magic items to allow entry into prestige classes to begin with, why even worry about any level requirement? Magic items can blow the doors off almost anything you'd need to normally work for to get into it. Need a BAB of +8 for that Uber-Whatzit and you're a mage? Oh, no worry. Just buy an item. Hell, don't even bother with that.. Just cast a spell just before you level that boosts your BAB up (there's a wizard spell that gives fighter BAB).. You don't even need to know the spell. Just cast it from a scroll!I'm not buying this slippery slope. There are really 3 main types of PrC requirements that get used: BAB, skill ranks, and feats. Barring custom items, you aren't getting boosts to BAB or skill ranks due to magic items. There aren't any guidelines to suggest something that boosts these, either. If we are going to talk about the RAW, or close deviations from it, then discussing hypothetical items that are completely out of line with RAW is pointless. That leaves us with a BAB-boosting buff. Even if a DM allowed for a BAB-boosting spell to qualify for a PrC, the PC would have to time the casting of a rounds/level buff to hit that point. Not only that, but they will lose all of the abilities of the prestige class when the buff expires. That, I think, gets down to the crux of the matter. Why even bother having entry requriements for PRCs when they can be completely blown off by purchasing the correct gear?The only way gear is going to be blowing off requirements (barring custom gear that significantly deviates from RAW examples), is to grant feats to the wearer (these are extremely rare and give crappy feats) or to help the user meet stat prereqs (which usually aren't required for the class, but for the feats that have the class). I'm going to go as far as saying I don't even agree with the FAQ (and usually I do) with the Magic Items allowing you to qualify for Feats. I believe that if you're going to write something permanent on your character sheet (such as a feat), your character should meet all the requirements without adding anything from equipment or spell effects. What about rage effects or other abilities that are granted by classes? I can easily envision a kobold barbarian with 11 strength normally who can only power attack while raging. What about requirements that are indirectly met? If you have to cast 7th level spells for a PrC would you let the caster who is utilizing a magic item to hit 17 in his casting stat qualify? Frankly, I don't see any in-game reason why they wouldn't qualify, nor do I see any balance reason why this should be prevented either. It seems like your argument is based a lot on some unquantifiable "this doesn't feel right." That is fine and dandy for your game, as long as your players understand and will accept it. If, however, you're trying to establish that allowing gauntlets of ogre power to let you qualify for power attack (which then lets you qualify for some PrC) is somehow wrong in the abstract, you'll need more than some hypothetical abusive items to make your argument hold water.
Jhulae 10-01-07, 12:45 AM	What about rage effects or other abilities that are granted by classes? I can easily envision a kobold barbarian with 11 strength normally who can only power attack while raging. What about requirements that are indirectly met? If you have to cast 7th level spells for a PrC would you let the caster who is utilizing a magic item to hit 17 in his casting stat qualify? A kobold doesn't have a 13 strength. It has an 11 strength with an enhancement bonus (very temporary, by the by) when it rages. So, you're saying, basically, that the moment the kobold levels it should rage so it can take Power Attack... Sorry, I don't buy that. As for my thoughts on magic items, such as the magic item to boost his casting stat, I only explained that, what? 4 posts up?
Sildatorak 10-01-07, 12:45 PM	A kobold doesn't have a 13 strength. It has an 11 strength with an enhancement bonus (very temporary, by the by) when it rages. So, you're saying, basically, that the moment the kobold levels it should rage so it can take Power Attack... Sorry, I don't buy that.I think I see at least one break in our play styles cropping up here again. I don't see leveling up as *DING* like it is in WoW. Once you have some XP and some downtime, you're ok to level in my book; it all takes place "off-screen" so to speak. The kobold will be able to boost his strength repeatedly during that downtime while figuring out how to PA. Also, rage is a nameless bonus. I realize that my earlier example of a caster using a buff to qualify for a PrC is wrong, then. The caster should have the option of taking the class that the BAB prereq is needed for, but it is still a monumentally stupid move since the benefits of that class will vanish whenever she isn't under the effects of tenser's transformation. As for my thoughts on magic items, such as the magic item to boost his casting stat, I only explained that, what? 4 posts up?I think this is significantly different than the situations you've outlined, unless you are also going to deny casters the ability to cast a certain level of spells by boosting with an item. You'd get extra skill points in any subsequent levels for that boost of Int. Its exactly the same as if you'd spent a stat point at 4th, 8th, etc. There's a reason why a +2 headband costs 4000 gold and a Tome of Clear Thought +2 costs 55k.I also want to address this bit. In 3.0, you did get skill points for a higher Int due to a headband, it was removed in 3.5 to simplify bookkeeping. There is also a host of other reasons that the Tome is more expensive: it stacks with pretty much every other item and buff, it doesn't occupy a slot, and the afforementioned lack of dispelability are the first that spring to mind.
Jhulae 10-01-07, 04:33 PM	I think I see at least one break in our play styles cropping up here again. I don't see leveling up as *DING* like it is in WoW. Once you have some XP and some downtime, you're ok to level in my book; it all takes place "off-screen" so to speak. The kobold will be able to boost his strength repeatedly during that downtime while figuring out how to PA. Also, rage is a nameless bonus. I realize that my earlier example of a caster using a buff to qualify for a PrC is wrong, then. The caster should have the option of taking the class that the BAB prereq is needed for, but it is still a monumentally stupid move since the benefits of that class will vanish whenever she isn't under the effects of tenser's transformation. I think this is significantly different than the situations you've outlined, unless you are also going to deny casters the ability to cast a certain level of spells by boosting with an item. I also want to address this bit. In 3.0, you did get skill points for a higher Int due to a headband, it was removed in 3.5 to simplify bookkeeping. There is also a host of other reasons that the Tome is more expensive: it stacks with pretty much every other item and buff, it doesn't occupy a slot, and the afforementioned lack of dispelability are the first that spring to mind. My position on the subject is firm. I'm not going to be changing them. None of your arguments make any difference in my mind. I think you're wrong, you don't. Great. Play it your way in your games, I'll play it my way in my games. While I personally believe my way fits more in the spirit of the rules, there is at least the one FAQ ruling that might allow for going the other way. Again, it doesn't make me waver in the slightest on my position. The 3.0 ruling has zero bearing on the current rules. And, I also firmly believe if they'd discovered that little tidbit during playtesting, they'd have nixed it then (by 3.0 so many people had been doing it, it was pointless to say No, and it was removed in the 3.5 rewrite). Plus, it elegantly took care of the question as to what should happen when a temporary bonus is provided by an item. As far as this discussion goes, I really don't have anything more to add since everything will be just me repeating basically what I've said earlier in the thread.
Sildatorak 10-01-07, 07:23 PM	While I personally believe my way fits more in the spirit of the rules, there is at least the one FAQ ruling that might allow for going the other way. Again, it doesn't make me waver in the slightest on my position. There is also the piece of evidence that is Allies & Enemies. It has the official stats of the archetypal characters which were used for playtesting. Regdar utilizes stat boosting items to qualify for feats. As far as this discussion goes, I really don't have anything more to add since everything will be just me repeating basically what I've said earlier in the thread. So basically you're sticking with the "it doesn't feel right to me" argument?
heffroncm 10-01-07, 08:34 PM	I think we've established a fair gradient here. Jhulae will only allow feats and prestige classes that the character naturally, with no magic items, meets the prerequisites for. I will allow an item for pretty much anything, but you need to invest in the item. You can't get in on a temporary buff, and just decide not to use the class features for the day without that buff. Note that the Binder PrC Knight of the Sacred Seal is an exception to this, as a temporary buff is a prerequisite of the class and you can choose to forgo that Vestige if neccessary. Sildatorak seems to be leaning towards allowing someone to qualify for a PrC or feat based on strictly temporary buffs. This doesn't sit well with me, as there will be large chunks of time when the character will not have access to the abilities and therefor will not be able to continue the sort of practice that is assumed in the PHB. It is an interesting RP idea for a Barbarian, though, as they could potentially become MUCH stronger in a rage.
Jhulae 10-01-07, 08:52 PM	There is also the piece of evidence that is Allies & Enemies. It has the official stats of the archetypal characters which were used for playtesting. Regdar utilizes stat boosting items to qualify for feats. So basically you're sticking with the "it doesn't feel right to me" argument? And various other sources that I quoted.
Sildatorak 10-02-07, 07:25 AM	Sildatorak seems to be leaning towards allowing someone to qualify for a PrC or feat based on strictly temporary buffs.I'd say that this is the RAW, but I won't actually allow the BAB changing buffs to qualify you in my campaign (this opens more doors than the stat buffs and seems more abusable to me). Temporary stat buffs are fine, IMO. There aren't any PrC's that I'm aware of that have direct stat requirements, and if someone wants to have feats that are only usable in certain situations, that is ok by me. Magic items are definitely acceptable (I'm assuming magic items that are following the guidelines of the DMG). The "dispel magic will make you lose your abilities for 1d4 rounds" argument doesn't hold any more water than the "bestow curse will make you lose your abilities until you get it removed" argument. There is no difference in strength between a person who is magically strong and naturally strong.
Goblinchaser 10-02-07, 11:58 AM	SRD - "Rings: A ring is a circular metal band worn on the finger (no more than two rings per wearer) that has a spell-like power (often a constant effect that affects the wearer). Using MotUH, i would allow, some other prestige classes are not so clear. Such as requiring Evasion as a Class ability, would someone wearing a ring qualify?... All in all let it happen unless the prereqs specifically state differently. The player is putting the benefits of the class into a single item. Losing that item disqualifies him for the class, and any class abilities that he gains. As already stated as well the character will need to continually create a new ring to keep up with the Spell resistance and saves required, which will cost him greatly, especially if you hold to the 50% selling of magic items, eventually he will get to a point where the character will be hard pressed to recomp some of the money as most towns will not have the GP to purchase the now underpowered ring. Just my two cents worth, happy gaming.
Puca 10-02-07, 12:15 PM	SRD - "Rings: A ring is a circular metal band worn on the finger (no more than two rings per wearer) that has a spell-like power (often a constant effect that affects the wearer).I feel short changed :) There are things for which I would allow items to meet a prereq. Ive said that before. But a spell-like power is not a spell-like ability. Such as requiring Evasion as a Class ability, would someone wearing a ring qualify?...I would not actually allow this, because the one case I know of is the Folwtf Lyrist. I think that the de facto two levels of rogue are a balancing factor. However, thats my opinion. By a strict reading, you do have Evasion with a ring. With the existing precedents, it is permissible. (I would categorize my disallowing it as a houserule.) Now, for a PrC like the Magelord, which specifically says "Evasion as a class or racial ability" - well, rings arent classes or races. It is very specifically not allowed. End of story. All in all let it happen unless the prereqs specifically state differently. The player is putting the benefits of the class into a single item. Losing that item disqualifies him for the class, and any class abilities that he gains.There is more to it than that. Using my example of the Folwhocares Lyrist, two levels of rogue almost guaranties xp penalties and cuts into both arcane and divine caster-levels. It is a huge, huge cost of entry. I would not let you get around that cost with a mid-priced item. These things do, sometimes, matter.
Sildatorak 10-02-07, 12:52 PM	By a strict reading, you do have Evasion with a ring. With the existing precedents, it is permissible. (I would categorize my disallowing it as a houserule.) This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion I would say that this is stating that the wearer doesn't actually have evasion, it is merely "as if" she did for the purposes of avoiding damage. I'd say your ruling is not a house rule, but RAW.
Puca 10-02-07, 03:30 PM	I can see that. Im not criticizing your argument there. At all. The thing is, Im not going to allow this in the one case I know of anyway. So, this (to me) sort of feels like I made up my mind for one reason (balance) and then disallowed it for another ("as if".) I abhor that backward "reasoning" in others. So I cannot condone it in myself. Just about me. Not the argument you made.
Sildatorak 10-02-07, 06:35 PM	So, this (to me) sort of feels like I made up my mind for one reason (balance) and then disallowed it for another ("as if".) I abhor that backward "reasoning" in others. So I cannot condone it in myself. I can totally respect that. I prefer to think of it as a two-pincer approach rather than backward reasoning, though. I'm not only shutting down my player who wants to do that "because I'm the DM and I said so," but also sticking a sock in their rules-lawyering mouths while I'm at it.
Puca 10-03-07, 11:44 AM	I never use "because I said so." If I have dont have a reason, I dont disallow it, and when I have a reason, I share it. It is just that when it is a balance reason, it is pretty much a matter of opinion. Theres really no arguing with "I think two rogue levels are necessary to balance this class." Nothing extinguishes the fire in a rules lawyer like "Youre right, but I never said I was going with the RAW on this."
Sildatorak 10-03-07, 05:10 PM	It is just that when it is a balance reason, it is pretty much a matter of opinion. That's what I meant by "because I said so." Sorry if I came across as trying to be argumentative.
Puca 10-04-07, 12:54 PM	No, no. Not at all. I didnt take it as argumentative. "Because I said so" seems to many DMs, here if not in real life, to be a perfectly legit answer. I just wanted to make it clear that I am not one of those, even though I didnt think you accused me of being so.