Magic rings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic rings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Strawberries
05-30-07, 09:44 PM Some items such as rings and artifacts and the like give the ability to cast magic spells like rings of elemental command or archmage staff. my question is if a non-caster is using one of those spells, how do i determine the spell caster level of the spell. do i just go with caster level 1 because they arent a caster or caster level "whatever class they are"?
SALDAR
05-30-07, 10:45 PM From the SRD (with DMG errata included):
Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

So you need to figure out the minimum caster level needed for the most powerful spell contained in the item and that is the caster level of all of the powers of the item.
steventirey1985
05-30-07, 11:02 PM The caster level for items in the books are listed with the items, like so:

Ring of Djinni Calling: One of the many rings of fable, this “genie” ring is most useful indeed. It serves as a special gate by means of which a specific djinni can be called from the Elemental Plane of Air. When the ring is rubbed (a standard action), the call goes out, and the djinni appears on the next round. The djinni faithfully obeys and serves the wearer of the ring, but never for more than 1 hour per day. If the djinni of the ring is ever killed, the ring becomes nonmagical and worthless.
Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Forge Ring, gate; Price 125,000 gp.
Strawberries
05-30-07, 11:42 PM doh :eek: cant believe i missad that. thanks a lot
SALDAR
05-31-07, 05:20 PM After looking back through what I posted above, WotC needs to correct a very significant mistake. The CL for a magic item, according to the errata, is the minimum caster level needed to meet the prerequisites, which usually includes feats, skills, and/or spells. In the case of rings the prerequisites include the Forge Ring feat. The Forge Ring requires a caster level of 12 so all rings should have a minimum CL of 12, but many of the rings listed in the DMG have a CL of less than 12.
weasel0
05-31-07, 08:24 PM The Forge Ring requires a caster level of 12 so all rings should have a minimum CL of 12, but many of the rings listed in the DMG have a CL of less than 12.

I am sooooo using this!
Vharuck
05-31-07, 10:20 PM After looking back through what I posted above, WotC needs to correct a very significant mistake. The CL for a magic item, according to the errata, is the minimum caster level needed to meet the prerequisites, which usually includes feats, skills, and/or spells. In the case of rings the prerequisites include the Forge Ring feat. The Forge Ring requires a caster level of 12 so all rings should have a minimum CL of 12, but many of the rings listed in the DMG have a CL of less than 12.

It's the minimum caster level for the spells, not the feat. Otherwise, the wands of 1st level spells with caster level 1 listed in the DMG couldn't exist.
SALDAR
06-02-07, 06:54 AM It's the minimum caster level for the spells, not the feat. Otherwise, the wands of 1st level spells with caster level 1 listed in the DMG couldn't exist.

A feat is a prerequisite for the creation of items.

From the SRD under Magic Item Descriptions:
Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

That is why I was pointed it out. A very big OOPS by WotC.
Merestil Haye
06-02-07, 10:20 AM A feat is a prerequisite for the creation of items.

From the SRD under Magic Item Descriptions:
Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

That is why I was pointed it out. A very big OOPS by WotC.Sorry, it's not.

The caster level of items never makes allowance for the feat necessary to craft the item, because the feat may be obtained via a class which is not contributing to the spell prerequisites.

Your interpretation would prevent a Clr 12/Wiz 3 from crafting a Ring of Invisibility. The actual rule is written to allow that.

Also, if the minimum CL for that ring were in fact 12, it would cost far more than the 20k that is given for it. It would be a minimum of 43,000gp and maybe more (remember the price of that Ring was nearly doubled to take care of the usefulness of easy invisibility).
Murrdox
06-02-07, 01:59 PM The CASTER LEVEL is different from CHARACTER LEVEL.

A level 12 character can forge a ring with a caster level of 6 if he wants to. It makes the item less expensive, and cost less experience points.

The caster level prerequisite for forging the ring represents the caster level of the spells that have to go into it. It is completely independent from what character level you would have to be in order to forge the ring in the first place.

So while most characters who forge rings will be level 12 or more, that doesn't mean that the caster level of all rings will be at least 12. If you imbue a ring with a spell of caster level 1, then 1 is the caster level of the ring, not 12.
Marcus Majarra
06-03-07, 02:13 AM Murrdox, the Forge Ring feat has "Caster level 12th" as a prerequisite, not "Character level 12th." As such, the minimum caster level to meet a Forge Ring requirement is 12th. By definition, all magic rings should have a CL of 12th or higher.
Murrdox
06-03-07, 02:47 PM Ah okay I see what you mean now. My mistake :)

In that case, it seems that although every ring DOES have a defacto Caster Level requirement of 12...

The CL requirement for the rings listed in the DMG look like they are set based on the cost of the item.

Since Caster Level is a factor in determining a ring's gold and XP cost, it would be prohibitively expensive for a caster to forge a Ring of Jumping, if a CL of 12 was factored in. The ring would cost many thousands more than it should.

Basically it is similar to how a level 20 Wizard can scribe a scroll of Fireball at Caster Level 5 to reduce its cost.
lint trap
06-03-07, 08:23 PM This is exactly why I've thrown out level requirements for item creation feats. It makes little sense, especially when the most powerful item creation feat (Wonderous Item) is available at 3rd level.
Nom
06-03-07, 08:51 PM Basically it is similar to how a level 20 Wizard can scribe a scroll of Fireball at Caster Level 5 to reduce its cost.Not quite. It's explicitly legal to create scrolls, potions, wands and staves at arbitrary caster levels, subject to meeting the minimum CL for the spell (and 8, for staves).

The ambiguity comes in the "other items" rules, which currently say that the minimum CL is the minimum for the pre-reqs. However, the example items never seem to apply the CL pre-reqs for the item creation feats. It seems clear that the error is not properly qualifying what parts of the pre-req list apply to caster level (ie spells but not feats), but as it stands the RAW and the application of them throughout chapter 7 are in conflict.
Mystic Lemur
06-03-07, 10:44 PM From the SRD under Magic Item Descriptions:
Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.
You have to be a fifth level wizard to craft a wand, but if you craft a wand of magic missile or fireball or whathaveyou, you can craft it to be any caster level you want (as long as it is at least the minimum caster level of the spell). While the feat and the spell are both prerequisites for crafting the item, the caster level of the item comes from the spell, not the feat or the character level, or the alignment, etc.
Nom
06-03-07, 11:41 PM Mystic, you're looking at the wrong text. The bit you want is in the errata under caster level: "For other magic items, ... the minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given."

Since the item's CL must be between the minimum CL and the creator's (guy who pays the XP) CL, the minimum CL forms an implicit pre-req.
Mystic Lemur
06-04-07, 12:06 AM After going downstairs to get my DMG, and putting the errata in context, I still believe I am right. I'll admit I just used the quote I did because it had been used earlier and I am lazy.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For example,... ...For other magic items, the caster level is determined [by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.]
Excluding staffs, because they use the caster level of the character using them, that leaves, what, Rings, Rods, and Wondrous Items? In that case, the caster level would be at least the prerequisite for the feat, but it could go higher if the item required some spell with a higher caster level requirement, i.e. a ring of three wishes would have to have a caster level of at least 17 because of wish. (Turns out it is CL 20, but it doesn't say why. Hmmm...)
Nom
06-04-07, 02:46 AM You weren't "wrong", but your quote was irrelevant to your conclusion.

Though if we nitpick, you were technically wrong, too. You don't need to be a 5th level wizard to craft a wand; you just need someone with the Craft Wand feat (who might need to be 5th level) assisting. A 3rd level wizard can be the primary "creator" for a wand of mirror image. He cannot be the primary "creator" for a wand of fireball, since he can't meet the minimum CL for the spell. Interestingly, a 3rd level cleric could also be the primary "creator" for a wand of mirror image (paying the XP cost), but he'd need someone/s else to provide both the Craft Wand feat and the mirror image spell.

Things become ambiguous when we deal with the other items. Unlike P/S/W, there is no explict rule allowing them to ignore the CL minimum of the item creation feat. However, the DMG sections on rods, rings and wondrous items are chock full of examples where this is done.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Strawberries 05-30-07, 09:44 PM	Some items such as rings and artifacts and the like give the ability to cast magic spells like rings of elemental command or archmage staff. my question is if a non-caster is using one of those spells, how do i determine the spell caster level of the spell. do i just go with caster level 1 because they arent a caster or caster level "whatever class they are"?
SALDAR 05-30-07, 10:45 PM	From the SRD (with DMG errata included): Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. So you need to figure out the minimum caster level needed for the most powerful spell contained in the item and that is the caster level of all of the powers of the item.
steventirey1985 05-30-07, 11:02 PM	The caster level for items in the books are listed with the items, like so: Ring of Djinni Calling: One of the many rings of fable, this “genie” ring is most useful indeed. It serves as a special gate by means of which a specific djinni can be called from the Elemental Plane of Air. When the ring is rubbed (a standard action), the call goes out, and the djinni appears on the next round. The djinni faithfully obeys and serves the wearer of the ring, but never for more than 1 hour per day. If the djinni of the ring is ever killed, the ring becomes nonmagical and worthless. Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Forge Ring, gate; Price 125,000 gp.
Strawberries 05-30-07, 11:42 PM	doh :eek: cant believe i missad that. thanks a lot
SALDAR 05-31-07, 05:20 PM	After looking back through what I posted above, WotC needs to correct a very significant mistake. The CL for a magic item, according to the errata, is the minimum caster level needed to meet the prerequisites, which usually includes feats, skills, and/or spells. In the case of rings the prerequisites include the Forge Ring feat. The Forge Ring requires a caster level of 12 so all rings should have a minimum CL of 12, but many of the rings listed in the DMG have a CL of less than 12.
weasel0 05-31-07, 08:24 PM	The Forge Ring requires a caster level of 12 so all rings should have a minimum CL of 12, but many of the rings listed in the DMG have a CL of less than 12. I am sooooo using this!
Vharuck 05-31-07, 10:20 PM	After looking back through what I posted above, WotC needs to correct a very significant mistake. The CL for a magic item, according to the errata, is the minimum caster level needed to meet the prerequisites, which usually includes feats, skills, and/or spells. In the case of rings the prerequisites include the Forge Ring feat. The Forge Ring requires a caster level of 12 so all rings should have a minimum CL of 12, but many of the rings listed in the DMG have a CL of less than 12. It's the minimum caster level for the spells, not the feat. Otherwise, the wands of 1st level spells with caster level 1 listed in the DMG couldn't exist.
SALDAR 06-02-07, 06:54 AM	It's the minimum caster level for the spells, not the feat. Otherwise, the wands of 1st level spells with caster level 1 listed in the DMG couldn't exist. A feat is a prerequisite for the creation of items. From the SRD under Magic Item Descriptions: Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level. That is why I was pointed it out. A very big OOPS by WotC.
Merestil Haye 06-02-07, 10:20 AM	A feat is a prerequisite for the creation of items. From the SRD under Magic Item Descriptions: Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level. That is why I was pointed it out. A very big OOPS by WotC.Sorry, it's not. The caster level of items never makes allowance for the feat necessary to craft the item, because the feat may be obtained via a class which is not contributing to the spell prerequisites. Your interpretation would prevent a Clr 12/Wiz 3 from crafting a Ring of Invisibility. The actual rule is written to allow that. Also, if the minimum CL for that ring were in fact 12, it would cost far more than the 20k that is given for it. It would be a minimum of 43,000gp and maybe more (remember the price of that Ring was nearly doubled to take care of the usefulness of easy invisibility).
Murrdox 06-02-07, 01:59 PM	The CASTER LEVEL is different from CHARACTER LEVEL. A level 12 character can forge a ring with a caster level of 6 if he wants to. It makes the item less expensive, and cost less experience points. The caster level prerequisite for forging the ring represents the caster level of the spells that have to go into it. It is completely independent from what character level you would have to be in order to forge the ring in the first place. So while most characters who forge rings will be level 12 or more, that doesn't mean that the caster level of all rings will be at least 12. If you imbue a ring with a spell of caster level 1, then 1 is the caster level of the ring, not 12.
Marcus Majarra 06-03-07, 02:13 AM	Murrdox, the Forge Ring feat has "Caster level 12th" as a prerequisite, not "Character level 12th." As such, the minimum caster level to meet a Forge Ring requirement is 12th. By definition, all magic rings should have a CL of 12th or higher.
Murrdox 06-03-07, 02:47 PM	Ah okay I see what you mean now. My mistake :) In that case, it seems that although every ring DOES have a defacto Caster Level requirement of 12... The CL requirement for the rings listed in the DMG look like they are set based on the cost of the item. Since Caster Level is a factor in determining a ring's gold and XP cost, it would be prohibitively expensive for a caster to forge a Ring of Jumping, if a CL of 12 was factored in. The ring would cost many thousands more than it should. Basically it is similar to how a level 20 Wizard can scribe a scroll of Fireball at Caster Level 5 to reduce its cost.
lint trap 06-03-07, 08:23 PM	This is exactly why I've thrown out level requirements for item creation feats. It makes little sense, especially when the most powerful item creation feat (Wonderous Item) is available at 3rd level.
Nom 06-03-07, 08:51 PM	Basically it is similar to how a level 20 Wizard can scribe a scroll of Fireball at Caster Level 5 to reduce its cost.Not quite. It's explicitly legal to create scrolls, potions, wands and staves at arbitrary caster levels, subject to meeting the minimum CL for the spell (and 8, for staves). The ambiguity comes in the "other items" rules, which currently say that the minimum CL is the minimum for the pre-reqs. However, the example items never seem to apply the CL pre-reqs for the item creation feats. It seems clear that the error is not properly qualifying what parts of the pre-req list apply to caster level (ie spells but not feats), but as it stands the RAW and the application of them throughout chapter 7 are in conflict.
Mystic Lemur 06-03-07, 10:44 PM	From the SRD under Magic Item Descriptions: Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level. You have to be a fifth level wizard to craft a wand, but if you craft a wand of magic missile or fireball or whathaveyou, you can craft it to be any caster level you want (as long as it is at least the minimum caster level of the spell). While the feat and the spell are both prerequisites for crafting the item, the caster level of the item comes from the spell, not the feat or the character level, or the alignment, etc.
Nom 06-03-07, 11:41 PM	Mystic, you're looking at the wrong text. The bit you want is in the errata under caster level: "For other magic items, ... the minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given." Since the item's CL must be between the minimum CL and the creator's (guy who pays the XP) CL, the minimum CL forms an implicit pre-req.
Mystic Lemur 06-04-07, 12:06 AM	After going downstairs to get my DMG, and putting the errata in context, I still believe I am right. I'll admit I just used the quote I did because it had been used earlier and I am lazy. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For example,... ...For other magic items, the caster level is determined [by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.] Excluding staffs, because they use the caster level of the character using them, that leaves, what, Rings, Rods, and Wondrous Items? In that case, the caster level would be at least the prerequisite for the feat, but it could go higher if the item required some spell with a higher caster level requirement, i.e. a ring of three wishes would have to have a caster level of at least 17 because of wish. (Turns out it is CL 20, but it doesn't say why. Hmmm...)
Nom 06-04-07, 02:46 AM	You weren't "wrong", but your quote was irrelevant to your conclusion. Though if we nitpick, you were technically wrong, too. You don't need to be a 5th level wizard to craft a wand; you just need someone with the Craft Wand feat (who might need to be 5th level) assisting. A 3rd level wizard can be the primary "creator" for a wand of mirror image. He cannot be the primary "creator" for a wand of fireball, since he can't meet the minimum CL for the spell. Interestingly, a 3rd level cleric could also be the primary "creator" for a wand of mirror image (paying the XP cost), but he'd need someone/s else to provide both the Craft Wand feat and the mirror image spell. Things become ambiguous when we deal with the other items. Unlike P/S/W, there is no explict rule allowing them to ignore the CL minimum of the item creation feat. However, the DMG sections on rods, rings and wondrous items are chock full of examples where this is done.