Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragar 01-01-08, 04:32 AM	According to the description of the spell Major Image, "The image disappears when struck by an opponent..." When coupled with the fact that PC's see what happens to others before they decide on their actions, this is what happens when I (as DM) try to create an illusion: The PC's are running along a path, and a wizard wants to slow them down for a round or two. He creates an illusion (Major Image) of a [creature] to block/threaten them. The PC with the first initiative, shoots a bolt/arrow at the creature (hitting easily with a ranged touch), causing it to disappear. He uses a move action to finish his round. Every other PC, seeing that the creature was an illusion, does a full round of movement. Result: 1 PC "wasted" a single move action; no one else even hesitated. This does not seem right. Shouldn't a charging dragon cause some hesitation in the PC's advancement? Thanks, Dragar
TheAnthroDM 01-01-08, 04:43 AM	And it likely would have, if not for the fact that they realized it was an illusion. So no, that's not really suprising. The best use for an illusion is to create something the PCs aren't going to interact with.
Dragar 01-01-08, 02:19 PM	In this discussion, I assume that the PC's believed the illusion at first. I expect (in fact *hope*) that the PC's interact with it. That is the purpose of the illusion -- to slow them down by forcing them to interact with it. In particular, if the PC's are only 30 feet away and running side-by-side toward the "dragon", it seems that *all* of them would have slowed down to deal with it. Since all actions are *really* being done simultaneously, it does not seem reasonable that the PC's can use the fact that another PC realized that the dragon was an illusion in order to run their full movement (straight through the illusion). By the way, the same problem occurs with illusion-covered pits -- only 1 PC (usually the one with the highest initiative) can possibly fall in before everyone else "knows" that it is an illusion. I'm trying to find a use for a Deck of Illusions (random creatures) for an NPC. Thanks, Dragar
Tedronai 01-01-08, 05:14 PM	Use big, scary, and OBVIOUSLY superior creatures as the basis for your illusions. Creatures normally of compatible alignment/association work best. Angels, other Celestials, and metalic dragons work quite well for good (or even neutral)-aligned PCs. You have to get rather more creative for evil PCs, though.
Marcus Majarra 01-01-08, 05:23 PM	In order to maintain the idea of all characters acting simultaneously, I suggest you delay the vanishing of the image until right before the start of the next turn of the character who hit it first. In essence, this results in all characters investing their first actions in interacting with the illusion.
LeeAlucard 01-02-08, 04:31 AM	Indeed, I find it ridiculous that the first PC to interact with an illusion is often the only PC to interact with an illusion. -_-
darokinblade 01-02-08, 11:44 AM	I also have had a hard time with illusions over time. Its difficult to find the point which it is effective for its level, but not overpowered. And the Silent, Minor and Major image trees generally cause the most problem. As far as attacks go, I usually dont allow ranged attacks to grant the Automatic failure. I mean, if you shoot a bow hard enough, it can imbed itself into a creature. I might allow them a spot check to notice the arrow landing in the distance behind them. Especially if the caster makes an arrow appear where the creature got hit (Provided they are still concentrating). But melee is much different. When up close, You know when your sword hits or not. That allows a save, if not an automatic save (Which grants allies a +4 to saves when communicated) But I've learned to be more lenient with illusions. I mean, the spell caster chose to cast this over fireballing them. There should be a good reason, right? Just my thoughts.
BoringInfoGuy 01-02-08, 02:29 PM	In order to maintain the idea of all characters acting simultaneously, I suggest you delay the vanishing of the image until right before the start of the next turn of the character who hit it first. In essence, this results in all characters investing their first actions in interacting with the illusion. What Marcus said. (You can find an example of this given on page 24 of the DMG). On the flip side, if you are going rule like this for the PC's, you need to make certain to use similar rulings for the NPC's when they come across the illusions of the Players. Also, if you are going to change how you've been ruling things in the past, you should probably want to inform your players of the change at the start of the next game session, instead of waiting for the issue to come up again.
Voran 01-03-08, 12:06 AM	Illusions (my opinion) tend to work best when they make the group waste actions and/or sets them up to be blindsided. In the above example, instead of a "Grr Argh!" illusion standing in the middle of the path, which will go poof after the action of 1 person, if you can make an illusion instead of a 'sentry looking dude' which has the illusion do a "OMG" kinda face then sprints off, quickly ducking behind corner and running...away from the direction of the actual badguys, so if (and likely when the party pursues) 1)they'll have burnt at least a move action to 'catch up' to where the guy last was 2)are now likely facing the WRONG way when the baddies hit them from the rear. Another misdirection is having an illusionary force mixed in with a couple real guys so the guys can do a little damage to make the party less clear on if that group is illusionary or not. Plus, kinda bonus cover for the real guys, as if they had a mirror image spell placed on them. The whole "Ignore us, cause we're trees" illusion is always fun. You can use it to have guys block off a path and again ambush the party, or other nasty things. If you've got your party wondering if they need to spend time trying to disbelieve whether or not the foliage is actually there, I think you've gotten them to a nice paranoid state. :)
Mock26 01-03-08, 12:20 AM	You could have everyone just declare their actions before anyone takes an action and then hold them to what they said. Another option would be to not use illusions of monsters. A nice big wall or a gaping pit could be more effective than a monster.
Dragar 01-03-08, 02:29 AM	Thank you for all your comments. It seems that illusions are not "realistic" (I know that's a four-letter word...) I know if there was a hologram of a dragon charging me, *I* would hesitate before (and even after) someone else dispelled it. One final question: How would I do the following using D&D rules? A wizard creates an illusion of a [huge creature] charging towards the party. Those in the party need to dive out of its path (perhaps off the cliff) or be trampled. I cannot see how to do this because of the "turn-based" nature of combat. Either the creature completes its attack (running through the party), or the creature has to just wait there looking menacing. Is there something similar to "Aborting to a Dodge" (losing your next action in order to avoid an approaching catastrophe)? The same thing also occurs for a (real) monster coming around the corner (unseen by the PC's until its "turn"). Suddenly a deadly monster has trampled over them -- is there a way for them to attempt to avoid it? Thanks, Dragar
Marcus Majarra 01-03-08, 02:56 PM	Trampling is actually an application of the overrun maneuver. I suggest you look into overrun rules to adjudicate this.
Sinis 01-03-08, 03:14 PM	When a player interacts with the illusion in a way that might foil it, I rule that each participant rolls a will save (with applicable modifiers) to see the illusion for what it is. Failures on this save indicate that the viewer does not notice the inconsistency or that the illusion modifies itself to suit the new situation*. The bolt/arrow in the original example could have apparently missed (from the viewpoint of the one who fails the save), or bounced off and cannot readily be found, or lodged in the chest of the creature and it is now slightly wounded (there's now an illusionary arrow sticking out of the illusionary monster). ----- * - an illusion modifying itself is not a far stretch. A skilled spellcaster might think of these contingencies, and add them to the illusion. Or, it might be something innate to illusion magic, that it is just like real magic, but only shadows and images.
BoringInfoGuy 01-03-08, 04:33 PM	Thank you for all your comments. It seems that illusions are not "realistic" (I know that's a four-letter word...) I know if there was a hologram of a dragon charging me, *I* would hesitate before (and even after) someone else dispelled it. One final question: How would I do the following using D&D rules? A wizard creates an illusion of a [huge creature] charging towards the party. Those in the party need to dive out of its path (perhaps off the cliff) or be trampled. I cannot see how to do this because of the "turn-based" nature of combat. Either the creature completes its attack (running through the party), or the creature has to just wait there looking menacing. Is there something similar to "Aborting to a Dodge" (losing your next action in order to avoid an approaching catastrophe)? The same thing also occurs for a (real) monster coming around the corner (unseen by the PC's until its "turn"). Suddenly a deadly monster has trampled over them -- is there a way for them to attempt to avoid it? Thanks, Dragar First, ignore the illusion part of the equation, and look up how the rules work From the SRD: You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.) With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round. If you’re attempting to overrun an opponent, follow these steps. Step 1 Attack of Opportunity. Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender. Step 2 Opponent Avoids? The defender has the option to simply avoid you. If he avoids you, he doesn’t suffer any ill effect and you may keep moving (You can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by.) The overrun attempt doesn’t count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent’s square). If your opponent doesn’t avoid you, move to Step 3. Step 3 Opponent Blocks? If your opponent blocks you, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus on the check for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you knock the defender prone. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check (including the size modifiers noted above, but no other modifiers) to try to knock you prone. Step 4 Consequences. If you succeed in knocking your opponent prone, you can continue your movement as normal. If you fail and are knocked prone in turn, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came and fall prone, ending your movement there. If you fail but are not knocked prone, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came, ending your movement there. If that square is occupied, you fall prone in that square. Improved Overrun If you have the Improved Overrun feat, your target may not choose to avoid you. Mounted Overrun (Trample) If you attempt an overrun while mounted, your mount makes the Strength check to determine the success or failure of the overrun attack (and applies its size modifier, rather than yours). If you have the Trample feat and attempt an overrun while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you, and if you knock your opponent prone with the overrun, your mount may make one hoof attack against your opponent. Prerequisites Str 13, Power Attack. Benefit When you attempt to overrun an opponent, the target may not choose to avoid you. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to knock down your opponent. Normal Without this feat, the target of an overrun can choose to avoid you or to block you. Special A fighter may select Improved Overrun as one of his fighter bonus feats. Prerequisites Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat. Benefit When you attempt to overrun an opponent while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you. Your mount may make one hoof attack against any target you knock down, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets. Special A fighter may select Trample as one of his fighter bonus feats. Short version: Without Improved Trample, the target (in this case the players) can always choose to avoid the trampling creature.
sblaxman 01-03-08, 04:44 PM	The key is (it was mentioned above) that it's consistent. If a player uses an illusion on confuse some ogres, they must have the same effect as the players. The DM needs to apply the rule across the board (and not just make it a bonus to the enemy) A few methods would be (including some taken above) 1) If the "illusion" is disrupted, have it vanish when it's turn comes 2) if the "illusion" is disrupted, have it vanish at the end of the round 3) make each player make a save to see if they notice it's fake. The players can tell each other (on their turn) that it's fake. 4) Have each player declare action before round takes place.. however, you will need to do this for ALL rounds in ALL circumstances, otherwise they'll know something is fishy 5) something else all together
Dragar 01-04-08, 03:37 AM	Trampling is actually an application of the overrun maneuver. I suggest you look into overrun rules to adjudicate this. Short version: Without Improved Trample, the target (in this case the players) can always choose to avoid the trampling creature. I do know the rules for overrun (though a creature with Trample is not quite the same, e.g., Giant Stag Beetle). I wanted to know what the equivalent of an "Abort to a Dodge" type action (as in Heroes/Champions RP system) would be in D&D. If there was a something (trampling creature, rolling boulder, 1968 Chevy, etc.) coming down the path at the PC's, how can the PC's get out of its way? To give a real example, a Triceratops 50' away from the party (whether an illusion created by a wizard or real) charges the party and "Trampling" them (full-round action, up to twice its speed, literally running over its opponents for 2d12+15, Reflex save for half DC28). Surely, the PC's have time to do *something* (get off the path, scatter so only 1 PC gets hit, dive for cover) in the time it takes for the creature to cover 50', even if it means they lose an action later? When a player interacts with the illusion in a way that might foil it, I rule that each participant rolls a will save (with applicable modifiers) to see the illusion for what it is. Failures on this save indicate that the viewer does not notice the inconsistency or that the illusion modifies itself to suit the new situation*. The bolt/arrow in the original example could have apparently missed (from the viewpoint of the one who fails the save), or bounced off and cannot readily be found, or lodged in the chest of the creature and it is now slightly wounded (there's now an illusionary arrow sticking out of the illusionary monster). Thanks. What happens if one PC's makes his save and another doesn't? It seems that once one PC makes a save, the whole party basically "knows" that it is an illusion (whether by character or player communication).
Marcus Majarra 01-04-08, 11:15 AM	I do know the rules for overrun (though a creature with Trample is not quite the same, e.g., Giant Stag Beetle). I wanted to know what the equivalent of an "Abort to a Dodge" type action (as in Heroes/Champions RP system) would be in D&D. If there was a something (trampling creature, rolling boulder, 1968 Chevy, etc.) coming down the path at the PC's, how can the PC's get out of its way? The equivalent of such a maneuver would be avoiding the overrunning creature or making the Reflex save in the case of a trampling creature. The truth is that in almost all cases, a rampaging creature doesn't occupy every cubic centimeter of its space. This makes it possible for other characters to avoid it without actually moving away. For a real-life example of this, consider the matador avoiding the bull without actually moving away.
Sinis 01-04-08, 11:52 AM	Thanks. What happens if one PC's makes his save and another doesn't? It seems that once one PC makes a save, the whole party basically "knows" that it is an illusion (whether by character or player communication). If the PC communicates the knowledge that it's an illusion, the other participants get another save with a +4 bonus, as per the regular old rules.
BoringInfoGuy 01-04-08, 12:05 PM	I do know the rules for overrun (though a creature with Trample is not quite the same, e.g., Giant Stag Beetle). I checked, you are right on this I wanted to know what the equivalent of an "Abort to a Dodge" type action (as in Heroes/Champions RP system) would be in D&D. If there was a something (trampling creature, rolling boulder, 1968 Chevy, etc.) coming down the path at the PC's, how can the PC's get out of its way? There is no Abort to A Dodge type action in DnD that I know of. That is what Reflex Saves are for. To give a real example, a Triceratops 50' away from the party (whether an illusion created by a wizard or real) charges the party and "Trampling" them (full-round action, up to twice its speed, literally running over its opponents for 2d12+15, Reflex save for half DC28). Surely, the PC's have time to do *something* (get off the path, scatter so only 1 PC gets hit, dive for cover) in the time it takes for the creature to cover 50', even if it means they lose an action later? The thing to remember is that the DnD system uses a turn based system to resolve combat. Not because it is realistic, but because trying to run combat in a realistic manner would be too confusing. As such, the combat rules deal with battles in an abstract manner. Try not to think of the turn based combat as being on a 1 to 1 ratio with the character actions. For the most part, the action of the characters (as opposed to the players) is meant to be more or less simultaneous with each other. So instead of thinking along these lines: First, the fighter draws his bow and fires an arrow at the Triceritops After that, the mage casts Magic missle missle. After that, the Triceritops tramples the party. Consider it more like: The fighter starts to draw his bow. The mage starts to cast his spell. The Triceratops starts his charge. The fighter draws an arrow, and aims. The magic missile strikes. The arrow hits. Then the Triceratops reaches and begins trampling over the party. Could the party members have started moving out of the way? Sure. But the Triceratops, being a living creature as opposed to a rolling bolder, could adjust his movement a bit to still Trample them. Also, did the party know it was going to be a trample attack? It could have been a charge and bite the closest target. How would that look different up to the point where the creature reaches the first party member? Does the combat rules work this way? No. And trying to run them this way would cause a confusing mess. But I suggest keeping in mind that the turn base combat system is an artificial creation used to keep combat moving. The only time you need to make changes in the turn base rulings is when the turn base system shatters the illusion of the characters acting in a simultaneous manner. If you think that having a Triceratops appearing at the end of the bridge and beginning to charge should give the party members the option of jumping off that bridge to avoid being tramples, then give them that option. Just make certain that your rulings are fair, consistent, and you can explain what makes this situation different than a standard one. Thanks. What happens if one PC's makes his save and another doesn't? It seems that once one PC makes a save, the whole party basically "knows" that it is an illusion (whether by character or player communication). Not necessarily. If someone sees through the illusion and tells the rest of the party, then they get to make another save, with a +4 modifier.
Dalzig 01-05-08, 05:05 PM	Not necessarily. If someone sees through the illusion and tells the rest of the party, then they get to make another save, with a +4 modifier.Right. Another way you could see this is that the one that made it's save can actually see-through the illusion. The other characters 'know' that it's an illusion, but in their eyes it is still there.
Choppus 01-05-08, 05:55 PM	I dunno... to me it makes sense that if you hit an illusion you figure out that it's not real. I mean if you throw a rock at an angry red dragon that is visually, audibly and thermally real, and the rock just passes through it, then it's pretty clear that it's an illusion. On the other hand, if that rock bounces off its nose then there's your cue to start running and don't stop until you get to tippirary. My point is, shooting first is a sound way to test the reality of things, but you can get yourself in trouble that way too. Real monsters will rip your head off if you do that. You can teach them a lesson about it sometime if you want to. :) My feeling on illusions is that you've got to be creative with them. Create an illusion of an inferno of flame that they'd have to walk through, or a big stone door which booms at them 'speak friend and enter', or a massive boulder atop a slope that looks like it could roll down and crush them at any moment should they proceed. Things they won't want to directly interact with. Maybe illusions aren't the best for slowing down pursuers. Things like Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Evards Black Tentacles, or just caltrops can be good for that.
Nom 01-13-08, 11:52 PM	I dunno... to me it makes sense that if you hit an illusion you figure out that it's not real. I mean if you throw a rock at an angry red dragon that is visually, audibly and thermally real, and the rock just passes through it, then it's pretty clear that it's an illusion.If the dragon were standing stock still and you were close enough to accurately aim the rock and see it's trajectory then that would count as "proof". However, if the thing is active (or worse, fighting you) then it's equally possible that you just missed or lost sight of the rock (ever try to follow a golf ball in flight while holding a side conversation?). Thus, make a Will save.
Another_Poet 01-14-08, 10:13 AM	I dunno... to me it makes sense that if you hit an illusion you figure out that it's not real. I mean if you throw a rock at an angry red dragon that is visually, audibly and thermally real, and the rock just passes through it, then it's pretty clear that it's an illusion. Or a ghost. Anyway, instead of an illusory dragon, I'd try an illusory wall covered with spikes. The wall completely blocks the way and the PCs will spend a round or two (maybe even much, much longer) figuring out how to protect themselves while climbing, or even waste a Fly spell. ap