Mass Combat anyone? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mass Combat anyone? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mr_will
04-12-07, 06:29 PM I love epic battles as much as the next guy. But I have a problem conducting them. Usually, when my PCs are fighting in the midsts of a huge war, I make it as though they're fighting in a 20'x20' room and if they touch the "walls" they take damage from whatever weapon is there. I figured that much out, but I'm lost on what's going on on the outside of the PCs fight. So my question is: has anyone figured out or know of some good rules for conducting mass combat? I may be making it more of a problem than needed, but I like to be thorough. I appreciate any help. Thanks in advance.
tos_shai_hulud
04-12-07, 06:31 PM Heroes of Battle had some sophisticated rules for mass combat. You might want to look into getting that. I have it, but it is at home, and I am at college.
swallowyersoul
04-12-07, 09:00 PM there's a malhavoc release called 'cry havok' that's about war and has a solid mass combat system.

personally, i wouldn't recommend running the larger battle as a combat. that becomes wargaming.

instead, set up the battle as a flowchart...

step one: sketch a quick description of how the battle will go if the pcs don't interfere.

step two: make a list of the points of the battle the pcs can effect (perhaps they can destroy seige engines, or take out some high level mercs; stuff like that).

step three: design encounters based on those points in the battle.

step four: decide how character failure/success/stunning success/abject failure will affect the battle as a whole.

step five: run the encounters and fill in descriptive text appropriately.

that's worked for me in past campaigns.
Downtym
04-13-07, 02:17 PM I love epic battles as much as the next guy. But I have a problem conducting them. Usually, when my PCs are fighting in the midsts of a huge war, I make it as though they're fighting in a 20'x20' room and if they touch the "walls" they take damage from whatever weapon is there. I figured that much out, but I'm lost on what's going on on the outside of the PCs fight. So my question is: has anyone figured out or know of some good rules for conducting mass combat? I may be making it more of a problem than needed, but I like to be thorough. I appreciate any help. Thanks in advance.

Easy way to do it: Play Warhammer or Warmachine.
Hard way to do it: Play D&D with modified rules.
mvincent
04-13-07, 06:53 PM Easy way to do it: Play WarhammerAh, this must be the Warhammer that I have not yet played* (possibly with pre-painted miniatures and clicky-bases). You weren't instead refering to Battlemasters by any chance, were you? ;)

*to clarify: I am being sarcastic here... implying that all the Warhammer versions I've played were not at all easy.
mvincent
04-13-07, 06:57 PM Heroes of Battle had some sophisticated rules for mass combat.Agreed. To clarify: Heroes of Battle does not give details on how to run the rest of the battle, but is about how to run players when they are part of such a battle (i.e. it focused on how not to run all those NPC's), and how their actions can affect the battle.
Thrushfeather
04-14-07, 01:09 AM I agree about Cry Havoc. It's a great book, and has a solid Mass combat system. Also, there are the "Mob" rules/template from the DMG2. These basically create something similar to a swarm (of spiders, centipedes, rats, etc.) but does it useing larger creatures varing from small to large size. Though, unfortunately it doesn't cover larger creatures (I really wanted to run my heard of 20 Ents...)

Also, running mass combats is generally illadvised in D&D, at least if you want very explicit actions and details. If you want this kind of detail play warhammer. It is best to run mass combats as a flow chart, with the battle kind of in the back ground, and then run the battle at large as a series of encounters with defined goals, that are preciveable at the PC's level. Some thing like

1. The PCs must re-enforce the battlements. (Goal: Stop groups of 10 orcs each entering at 4 points along the wall. A new group of orcs arrives every 2 rounds. Hold them for 10 rounds.)
2. Head off the Orc Calvary flanking the main army. (Goal: Get to the edge of the woods, and take out 15 of the 25 Orc Horsemen. After 7 round reinforcements arrive from the main army, and the PCs can move to number 3.)
3. Orc are bringing forward seige equipment stop them. (Goal: Either kill the Beasts of Burden pulling the engines, or destroy the engines themselves. The area has 4 "Mobs" of regular orcs running around that hinder the PCs progress.)

4. etc, you get the idea, just run the battle as seemingly huge but keep the PCs grounded in more simple encounters that have creal goals. You'll still get the excitement and scale, with out being overwhelmed by trying to resolve each foot mans attack roll.
With very large numbers the basic combat system of the game breaks down, and becomes even more absract. Instead of having to deal with this, just run a series of encounters this a focus point and goal to each, and keep the dine of battle rings around the party.

Thrushfeather
Downtym
04-15-07, 02:00 AM Ah, this must be the Warhammer that I have not yet played (possibly with pre-painted miniatures and clicky-bases). You weren't instead refering to Battlemasters by any chance, were you? ;)

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/

Clicky bases are fun, but I find that clicking the bases is outright annoying. And Battlemasters just doesn't have enough awesome playing pieces.

Honestly, if/when mass-combat comes up, my immediate inclination is to either turn to another game system to do the combat or to hand-wave the battle as a background set piece while the pc's have "scenes" inside of the larger battle.

I would shy away from even doing the mass-battle miniature war if my players were obviously not interested in doing that. Anything that slows down the game it not a good idea and mass combats are known for slowing games down no matter how you do them.
Finarin Panjoro
04-15-07, 12:35 PM I use Heroes of Battle combined with the Mob rules from the DMG 2. Basically a Mob unit is like a swarm of larger creatures. All you have to do to make military units out of mobs is increase their AC, increase their damage die, and add ranged combat options (I usually allow each unit to fire a volley of arrows as found in Heroes of Battle).

Each unit is about 50 people (unless they are larger than medium creatures then their are fewer of them). So running a combat against 300 soldiers is like running a combat against six large monsters.

It works extremely well. My players loved it. After they finished a battle against 9 mobs plus other monsters (the equivalent of four encounters in a row). When the battle was over they had defeated nearly 400 enemies and they were thrilled. It worked really well.
ZenZ
04-15-07, 01:37 PM I have Cry Havok from Malhavoc Press (Monte Cook) and I find the rules nice but a wee bit difficult to apply. It looks like one of those source books where you almost need to have multiple copies to pass out so all the Players and DM can follow along. I still might try it but the encounters would slow down as I look up spell effects and Feats as they relate to the system. It does follow the 3.5 D&D system and is written by Skip Williams who knows his stuff!

Looking at Odyssey: Fields of Blood by Eden Press (I think). To compare and contrast.

I must admit, I like the War Game element combined with the role play element. It is a great way to have PCs with the Leadership Feat make a difference with all those followers.
CharlieRock
04-18-07, 10:52 AM Have you tried the Miniatures Handbook?

http://www.pen-paper.net/images/rpgdb/wtc96582.jpg

Charge (Living Imagination) is helpful,too.

http://www.pen-paper.net/images/rpgdb/li1504.jpg
GunnerHauklund
04-20-07, 07:40 PM I created an spreadsheet sometime back where you could choose the AC, BAB, Weapon Die Class and number of troops for each army and it would figure out the results of the battle in 10 round increments. I also plugged in numbers for PC influence (good strategy idea, heroics, tactical advantages, etc).

I will see if I can find it on my comp.

It's all about averages. For example, a character with a +1 BAB will hit AC 15 using a shortsword 30% of the time for an average of 3.5 points of damage. So if 100 figthers attacked 100 enemy fighters with the same stats, you would expect 30% of them to hit. And those 30% would do 3.5 points of damage. To smooth it out, every fighter will do 30% of 3.5 pts of damage per turn (or 1 point of damage rounded up). If they all had 10 hitpoints, after 10 rounds the fight would be over. By using that math, you can make all kinds of variations.

By entering the PC stats, you could figure out how much damage they might take per round (based on their AC). You might also determine that each PC was worth 3 enemies or so forth and factor that in. Once the spreadsheet was built, it was very easyto add different variables (and even a random variable) to see how the battle turned out.

I should also note that this works for determining the outcome of the battle, but you still want to run "mini" encounters like those suggested above to relieve any dryness this system may incour. I use the min-encounters to add my variables to the battle.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mr_will 04-12-07, 06:29 PM	I love epic battles as much as the next guy. But I have a problem conducting them. Usually, when my PCs are fighting in the midsts of a huge war, I make it as though they're fighting in a 20'x20' room and if they touch the "walls" they take damage from whatever weapon is there. I figured that much out, but I'm lost on what's going on on the outside of the PCs fight. So my question is: has anyone figured out or know of some good rules for conducting mass combat? I may be making it more of a problem than needed, but I like to be thorough. I appreciate any help. Thanks in advance.
tos_shai_hulud 04-12-07, 06:31 PM	Heroes of Battle had some sophisticated rules for mass combat. You might want to look into getting that. I have it, but it is at home, and I am at college.
swallowyersoul 04-12-07, 09:00 PM	there's a malhavoc release called 'cry havok' that's about war and has a solid mass combat system. personally, i wouldn't recommend running the larger battle as a combat. that becomes wargaming. instead, set up the battle as a flowchart... step one: sketch a quick description of how the battle will go if the pcs don't interfere. step two: make a list of the points of the battle the pcs can effect (perhaps they can destroy seige engines, or take out some high level mercs; stuff like that). step three: design encounters based on those points in the battle. step four: decide how character failure/success/stunning success/abject failure will affect the battle as a whole. step five: run the encounters and fill in descriptive text appropriately. that's worked for me in past campaigns.
Downtym 04-13-07, 02:17 PM	I love epic battles as much as the next guy. But I have a problem conducting them. Usually, when my PCs are fighting in the midsts of a huge war, I make it as though they're fighting in a 20'x20' room and if they touch the "walls" they take damage from whatever weapon is there. I figured that much out, but I'm lost on what's going on on the outside of the PCs fight. So my question is: has anyone figured out or know of some good rules for conducting mass combat? I may be making it more of a problem than needed, but I like to be thorough. I appreciate any help. Thanks in advance. Easy way to do it: Play Warhammer or Warmachine. Hard way to do it: Play D&D with modified rules.
mvincent 04-13-07, 06:53 PM	Easy way to do it: Play WarhammerAh, this must be the Warhammer that I have not yet played* (possibly with pre-painted miniatures and clicky-bases). You weren't instead refering to Battlemasters by any chance, were you? ;) *to clarify: I am being sarcastic here... implying that all the Warhammer versions I've played were not at all easy.
mvincent 04-13-07, 06:57 PM	Heroes of Battle had some sophisticated rules for mass combat.Agreed. To clarify: Heroes of Battle does not give details on how to run the rest of the battle, but is about how to run players when they are part of such a battle (i.e. it focused on how not to run all those NPC's), and how their actions can affect the battle.
Thrushfeather 04-14-07, 01:09 AM	I agree about Cry Havoc. It's a great book, and has a solid Mass combat system. Also, there are the "Mob" rules/template from the DMG2. These basically create something similar to a swarm (of spiders, centipedes, rats, etc.) but does it useing larger creatures varing from small to large size. Though, unfortunately it doesn't cover larger creatures (I really wanted to run my heard of 20 Ents...) Also, running mass combats is generally illadvised in D&D, at least if you want very explicit actions and details. If you want this kind of detail play warhammer. It is best to run mass combats as a flow chart, with the battle kind of in the back ground, and then run the battle at large as a series of encounters with defined goals, that are preciveable at the PC's level. Some thing like 1. The PCs must re-enforce the battlements. (Goal: Stop groups of 10 orcs each entering at 4 points along the wall. A new group of orcs arrives every 2 rounds. Hold them for 10 rounds.) 2. Head off the Orc Calvary flanking the main army. (Goal: Get to the edge of the woods, and take out 15 of the 25 Orc Horsemen. After 7 round reinforcements arrive from the main army, and the PCs can move to number 3.) 3. Orc are bringing forward seige equipment stop them. (Goal: Either kill the Beasts of Burden pulling the engines, or destroy the engines themselves. The area has 4 "Mobs" of regular orcs running around that hinder the PCs progress.) 4. etc, you get the idea, just run the battle as seemingly huge but keep the PCs grounded in more simple encounters that have creal goals. You'll still get the excitement and scale, with out being overwhelmed by trying to resolve each foot mans attack roll. With very large numbers the basic combat system of the game breaks down, and becomes even more absract. Instead of having to deal with this, just run a series of encounters this a focus point and goal to each, and keep the dine of battle rings around the party. Thrushfeather
Downtym 04-15-07, 02:00 AM	Ah, this must be the Warhammer that I have not yet played (possibly with pre-painted miniatures and clicky-bases). You weren't instead refering to Battlemasters by any chance, were you? ;) http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/ Clicky bases are fun, but I find that clicking the bases is outright annoying. And Battlemasters just doesn't have enough awesome playing pieces. Honestly, if/when mass-combat comes up, my immediate inclination is to either turn to another game system to do the combat or to hand-wave the battle as a background set piece while the pc's have "scenes" inside of the larger battle. I would shy away from even doing the mass-battle miniature war if my players were obviously not interested in doing that. Anything that slows down the game it not a good idea and mass combats are known for slowing games down no matter how you do them.
Finarin Panjoro 04-15-07, 12:35 PM	I use Heroes of Battle combined with the Mob rules from the DMG 2. Basically a Mob unit is like a swarm of larger creatures. All you have to do to make military units out of mobs is increase their AC, increase their damage die, and add ranged combat options (I usually allow each unit to fire a volley of arrows as found in Heroes of Battle). Each unit is about 50 people (unless they are larger than medium creatures then their are fewer of them). So running a combat against 300 soldiers is like running a combat against six large monsters. It works extremely well. My players loved it. After they finished a battle against 9 mobs plus other monsters (the equivalent of four encounters in a row). When the battle was over they had defeated nearly 400 enemies and they were thrilled. It worked really well.
ZenZ 04-15-07, 01:37 PM	I have Cry Havok from Malhavoc Press (Monte Cook) and I find the rules nice but a wee bit difficult to apply. It looks like one of those source books where you almost need to have multiple copies to pass out so all the Players and DM can follow along. I still might try it but the encounters would slow down as I look up spell effects and Feats as they relate to the system. It does follow the 3.5 D&D system and is written by Skip Williams who knows his stuff! Looking at Odyssey: Fields of Blood by Eden Press (I think). To compare and contrast. I must admit, I like the War Game element combined with the role play element. It is a great way to have PCs with the Leadership Feat make a difference with all those followers.
CharlieRock 04-18-07, 10:52 AM	Have you tried the Miniatures Handbook? http://www.pen-paper.net/images/rpgdb/wtc96582.jpg Charge (Living Imagination) is helpful,too. http://www.pen-paper.net/images/rpgdb/li1504.jpg
GunnerHauklund 04-20-07, 07:40 PM	I created an spreadsheet sometime back where you could choose the AC, BAB, Weapon Die Class and number of troops for each army and it would figure out the results of the battle in 10 round increments. I also plugged in numbers for PC influence (good strategy idea, heroics, tactical advantages, etc). I will see if I can find it on my comp. It's all about averages. For example, a character with a +1 BAB will hit AC 15 using a shortsword 30% of the time for an average of 3.5 points of damage. So if 100 figthers attacked 100 enemy fighters with the same stats, you would expect 30% of them to hit. And those 30% would do 3.5 points of damage. To smooth it out, every fighter will do 30% of 3.5 pts of damage per turn (or 1 point of damage rounded up). If they all had 10 hitpoints, after 10 rounds the fight would be over. By using that math, you can make all kinds of variations. By entering the PC stats, you could figure out how much damage they might take per round (based on their AC). You might also determine that each PC was worth 3 enemies or so forth and factor that in. Once the spreadsheet was built, it was very easyto add different variables (and even a random variable) to see how the battle turned out. I should also note that this works for determining the outcome of the battle, but you still want to run "mini" encounters like those suggested above to relieve any dryness this system may incour. I use the min-encounters to add my variables to the battle.