Mixing unarmed attacks and natural weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mixing unarmed attacks and natural weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rmccowen
06-19-07, 12:32 PM I originally posted this thread to the CharOp boards, but ended up getting build advice instead of answers to the actual question. Here's hoping I can get better advice here.

I'm playing a multiclass Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion)/Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) in an upcoming game, and it brought up the following question: how can unarmed strikes from a non-monk be combined with natural attacks?

The FAQ talks about monks making natural attacks, but monks get to treat their unarmed strikes as manufactured weapons when it would be advantageous to do so; non-monks are still stuck in a gray area. Skip Williams' "Rules of the Game" articles online also address this question, but I find the solution unsatisfactory. Part Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) says that you can treat unarmed strikes as a manufactured weapon, and make them along with your natural weapons as secondary attacks--but you have to give up any natural attacks made with your "primary limb". This is unsupported by any rules I've been able to locate, and doesn't make any sense in light of the fact that unarmed strikes can explicitly be made (according to the Player's Handbook, as well as Part One (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070327a) of the same series of articles) with any part of the body.

I've looked through all my books, and can't find a rules-text resolution to this problem. I'd like to find rules text stating, in black and white, "You can treat unarmed strikes as manufactured weapons for the purpose of combining them with natural attacks." Failing that, I'm willing to listen to any well-founded, concrete argument either way.

Any help out there?
goawayugh
06-19-07, 01:05 PM I originally posted this thread to the CharOp boards, but ended up getting build advice instead of answers to the actual question. Here's hoping I can get better advice here.

That's what the CO board is for...builds.

I'm playing a multiclass Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion)/Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) in an upcoming game, and it brought up the following question: how can unarmed strikes from a non-monk be combined with natural attacks?

I may be wrong on this one, but here it goes:
If you do not have Improved Unarmed Strike, your unarmed strike is not considered a "weapon" and therefore you can not make any attacks with it in a round where you make natural attacks. That being said, if you do have IUS, it turns your unarmed strike into a natural attack. The number of natural attacks you can make has nothing to do with your BAB, it has to do simply with how many different types of natural attacks you have. If you have a bite for example, you could do bite, fist, fist. IUS just adds two more natural attacks to what you normally have available.
danyc
06-19-07, 01:57 PM You are a tiny bit wrong, but only in terms of nomenclature, not really in terms of how things work :)

The text regarding natural weapons, manufactured weapons, etc... is all in the monk ability. The IUS feat simply converts your unarmed attack into an 'armed unarmed attack', in their own words. This is covered in the SRD under the attack option. Although Monk text includes the bit about never using an offhand and being able to strike with everything, the unarmed attack description does mention headbutts and non 'fist' attacks so its safe to assume that this portion (but not the manufactured weapon thing) applies to both monk and vanilla IUS versions.

The simplest way to handle this rules wise is to look at individual halves of what you're doing and then add them together. If you had no natural weapons and were making unarmed attacks, you make them as normal, with iteratives up to your bab (nothing in the unarmed attack description contradicts this). What you're attacking with is irrelevant, you can use headbutts, kicks, punches, elbows, etc.

Then take natural attacks. Normally, you make your full sequence, applying penalties for primary/secondary/multiattack, etc. If you want to combine with an armed full attack, you use whatever attacks are available and they count as secondaries at -5 (the standard iterative w/ weapon + bite @ -5, for instance, seen on many monsters).

So now what you're doing, is adding an unarmed attack sequence (which works the same way as an armed one, based on BAB) with secondary natural attacks. So you can attack with your unarmed sequence at standard BAB, and then add natural attacks as secondaries.

The gray area is whether or not you can use every natural attack you have as a secondary, +full unarmed sequence, or if you have to pick some. RAW seems to suggest you could throw them all in (ie doing an iterative unarmed attack with... kicks for instance, and then doing claw/claw/bite all as secondaries), because Skip's 'primary limb' bit gets countered by the way unarmed attacks can be made with anything. However, there are few if any examples of any monster attacking this way (and indeed, it would imply that a Dragon, for example, could take IUS and make its full natural attack sequence, and then iterate 4 times for unarmed damage based on its size + its awesome strength bonus), so you might want to say intent is that primary natural attacks are lost if you attack with BAB, and only allow the secondaries (IE BAB attacks + bite, or whatever).
rmccowen
06-19-07, 04:24 PM The gray area is whether or not you can use every natural attack you have as a secondary, +full unarmed sequence, or if you have to pick some. RAW seems to suggest you could throw them all in (ie doing an iterative unarmed attack with... kicks for instance, and then doing claw/claw/bite all as secondaries), because Skip's 'primary limb' bit gets countered by the way unarmed attacks can be made with anything. However, there are few if any examples of any monster attacking this way (and indeed, it would imply that a Dragon, for example, could take IUS and make its full natural attack sequence, and then iterate 4 times for unarmed damage based on its size + its awesome strength bonus), so you might want to say intent is that primary natural attacks are lost if you attack with BAB, and only allow the secondaries (IE BAB attacks + bite, or whatever).

Oddly enough, that's also the first thing that occurred to me: dragons with iterative unarmed strikes would be freakin' nasty, and it's not like they don't generally have feats to spare.

Another trick to file away for when a group of players deserves a cruel surprise...
danyc
06-19-07, 11:14 PM It actually came up in a game I ran. When Draconomicon came out, I decided to run a 3.5 version of the old Council of Wyrms mod (basically a 2nd ed boxed set for Dragon PCs). Later on, I had someone who wanted to take monk levels and throw in a full unarmed flurry, using all of his natural attacks as secondaries (so he'd end up with something like 12 attacks all with large damage). I veto'ed it on sanity, and said he could do his unarmed as primary with BAB, and then pick one 'set' of naturals to tack in, IE both claws, both wings, or the bite.

But yeah... RAW, I've never seen anything that says you can't be that cheesy, simply because of how unarmed are never worded to be 'assigned' to any part of the body... unlike weapons, which clearly take away your claws (the standard 2H + bite that we see on many monsters, like hound archons). Given their natural wisdom mods, a level of monk would be awesome on most dragons, and needless to say, even without that, they have more than enough feats to pick up IUS :)

It is worth noting that doing so reduces you to 1/2 STR on the natural sequence (since secondaries are always 1/2), but... your unarmed get the full STR and you're almost certainly going to add a lot of damage output.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rmccowen 06-19-07, 12:32 PM	I originally posted this thread to the CharOp boards, but ended up getting build advice instead of answers to the actual question. Here's hoping I can get better advice here. I'm playing a multiclass Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion)/Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) in an upcoming game, and it brought up the following question: how can unarmed strikes from a non-monk be combined with natural attacks? The FAQ talks about monks making natural attacks, but monks get to treat their unarmed strikes as manufactured weapons when it would be advantageous to do so; non-monks are still stuck in a gray area. Skip Williams' "Rules of the Game" articles online also address this question, but I find the solution unsatisfactory. Part Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) says that you can treat unarmed strikes as a manufactured weapon, and make them along with your natural weapons as secondary attacks--but you have to give up any natural attacks made with your "primary limb". This is unsupported by any rules I've been able to locate, and doesn't make any sense in light of the fact that unarmed strikes can explicitly be made (according to the Player's Handbook, as well as Part One (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070327a) of the same series of articles) with any part of the body. I've looked through all my books, and can't find a rules-text resolution to this problem. I'd like to find rules text stating, in black and white, "You can treat unarmed strikes as manufactured weapons for the purpose of combining them with natural attacks." Failing that, I'm willing to listen to any well-founded, concrete argument either way. Any help out there?
goawayugh 06-19-07, 01:05 PM	I originally posted this thread to the CharOp boards, but ended up getting build advice instead of answers to the actual question. Here's hoping I can get better advice here. That's what the CO board is for...builds. I'm playing a multiclass Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion)/Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) in an upcoming game, and it brought up the following question: how can unarmed strikes from a non-monk be combined with natural attacks? I may be wrong on this one, but here it goes: If you do not have Improved Unarmed Strike, your unarmed strike is not considered a "weapon" and therefore you can not make any attacks with it in a round where you make natural attacks. That being said, if you do have IUS, it turns your unarmed strike into a natural attack. The number of natural attacks you can make has nothing to do with your BAB, it has to do simply with how many different types of natural attacks you have. If you have a bite for example, you could do bite, fist, fist. IUS just adds two more natural attacks to what you normally have available.
danyc 06-19-07, 01:57 PM	You are a tiny bit wrong, but only in terms of nomenclature, not really in terms of how things work :) The text regarding natural weapons, manufactured weapons, etc... is all in the monk ability. The IUS feat simply converts your unarmed attack into an 'armed unarmed attack', in their own words. This is covered in the SRD under the attack option. Although Monk text includes the bit about never using an offhand and being able to strike with everything, the unarmed attack description does mention headbutts and non 'fist' attacks so its safe to assume that this portion (but not the manufactured weapon thing) applies to both monk and vanilla IUS versions. The simplest way to handle this rules wise is to look at individual halves of what you're doing and then add them together. If you had no natural weapons and were making unarmed attacks, you make them as normal, with iteratives up to your bab (nothing in the unarmed attack description contradicts this). What you're attacking with is irrelevant, you can use headbutts, kicks, punches, elbows, etc. Then take natural attacks. Normally, you make your full sequence, applying penalties for primary/secondary/multiattack, etc. If you want to combine with an armed full attack, you use whatever attacks are available and they count as secondaries at -5 (the standard iterative w/ weapon + bite @ -5, for instance, seen on many monsters). So now what you're doing, is adding an unarmed attack sequence (which works the same way as an armed one, based on BAB) with secondary natural attacks. So you can attack with your unarmed sequence at standard BAB, and then add natural attacks as secondaries. The gray area is whether or not you can use every natural attack you have as a secondary, +full unarmed sequence, or if you have to pick some. RAW seems to suggest you could throw them all in (ie doing an iterative unarmed attack with... kicks for instance, and then doing claw/claw/bite all as secondaries), because Skip's 'primary limb' bit gets countered by the way unarmed attacks can be made with anything. However, there are few if any examples of any monster attacking this way (and indeed, it would imply that a Dragon, for example, could take IUS and make its full natural attack sequence, and then iterate 4 times for unarmed damage based on its size + its awesome strength bonus), so you might want to say intent is that primary natural attacks are lost if you attack with BAB, and only allow the secondaries (IE BAB attacks + bite, or whatever).
rmccowen 06-19-07, 04:24 PM	The gray area is whether or not you can use every natural attack you have as a secondary, +full unarmed sequence, or if you have to pick some. RAW seems to suggest you could throw them all in (ie doing an iterative unarmed attack with... kicks for instance, and then doing claw/claw/bite all as secondaries), because Skip's 'primary limb' bit gets countered by the way unarmed attacks can be made with anything. However, there are few if any examples of any monster attacking this way (and indeed, it would imply that a Dragon, for example, could take IUS and make its full natural attack sequence, and then iterate 4 times for unarmed damage based on its size + its awesome strength bonus), so you might want to say intent is that primary natural attacks are lost if you attack with BAB, and only allow the secondaries (IE BAB attacks + bite, or whatever). Oddly enough, that's also the first thing that occurred to me: dragons with iterative unarmed strikes would be freakin' nasty, and it's not like they don't generally have feats to spare. Another trick to file away for when a group of players deserves a cruel surprise...
danyc 06-19-07, 11:14 PM	It actually came up in a game I ran. When Draconomicon came out, I decided to run a 3.5 version of the old Council of Wyrms mod (basically a 2nd ed boxed set for Dragon PCs). Later on, I had someone who wanted to take monk levels and throw in a full unarmed flurry, using all of his natural attacks as secondaries (so he'd end up with something like 12 attacks all with large damage). I veto'ed it on sanity, and said he could do his unarmed as primary with BAB, and then pick one 'set' of naturals to tack in, IE both claws, both wings, or the bite. But yeah... RAW, I've never seen anything that says you can't be that cheesy, simply because of how unarmed are never worded to be 'assigned' to any part of the body... unlike weapons, which clearly take away your claws (the standard 2H + bite that we see on many monsters, like hound archons). Given their natural wisdom mods, a level of monk would be awesome on most dragons, and needless to say, even without that, they have more than enough feats to pick up IUS :) It is worth noting that doing so reduces you to 1/2 STR on the natural sequence (since secondaries are always 1/2), but... your unarmed get the full STR and you're almost certainly going to add a lot of damage output.