Monk AC? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Monk AC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bbhamond68
02-19-08, 06:39 AM A new player joined the group with a 6th Level Monk and an AC of 31? I looked at the character sheet and saw his base was 10+ dex mod of 3+ wis mod for being a monk was 4+ 1 for being a monk at over 5th level + his voluntary Poverty AC bonuses at 6th level + his Vow of Peace AC bonuses and since he is an Ascetic he recieves a =4 exaled bonus to his AC, this bonus increases to +5 at 3rd level and thereafter by +1 for each character level. for a total of AC 31! My question is do these exaled bonuses stack or overlap? How can a 6th level monk with no weapons or armor have such a high AC? I will have to revamp my NPC stat's which would cause the game to be off balance for the rest of the party. But I can't find an error in the Monk's character sheet.:confused:
Merestil Haye
02-19-08, 07:18 AM A new player joined the group with a 6th Level Monk and an AC of 31? I looked at the character sheet and saw his base was 10+ dex mod of 3+ wis mod for being a monk was 4+ 1 for being a monk at over 5th level + his voluntary Poverty AC bonuses at 6th level + his Vow of Peace AC bonuses and since he is an Ascetic he recieves a =4 exaled bonus to his AC, this bonus increases to +5 at 3rd level and thereafter by +1 for each character level. for a total of AC 31! My question is do these exaled bonuses stack or overlap? How can a 6th level monk with no weapons or armor have such a high AC? I will have to revamp my NPC stat's which would cause the game to be off balance for the rest of the party. But I can't find an error in the Monk's character sheet.:confused:Remember the basic rule of stacking; bonuses of different types stack, but two bonuses of the same type do not.

With that in mind, let's look at your list of his AC bonuses.

Dex +3
Monk class +5 (Wis +1 - this is all one bonus)
+2 Natural Armour (Vow of Peace)
+2 Deflection (Vow of Peace)
+2 Exalted (Vow of Peace)
+6 Exalted (Vow of Poverty)
+1 Deflection (Vow of Poverty)

Those numbers all add up to 21, so I'm assuming that they are what he has.

Both Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty provide an Exalted bonus to AC - so only the higher applies. That would be the +6 he gets from Vow of Poverty.

Both Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty provide a Deflection bonus to AC - so only the higher applies. That would be the +2 he gets from the Vow of Peace.

His AC is therefore 28.

That's still pretty good for a 6th level character. A regular Monks with the two ability modifiers noted and the requisite amount of gear probably won't quite match that. On the other hand, that's where most of his "resources" are sunk - in not being hit - and frankly, Exalted characters should be in a position to soak up attacks so innocents (and/or their companions) don't get hurt.

Find ways to affect him without attacking him directly. Throw the occasional incorporeal undead at him, and bypass 8 points of his AC. (Exalted bonuses to AC don't hinder Incorporeal Touch attacks).
Andrew
02-19-08, 08:43 AM More that will cause a problem is the play restrictions a character with Vow of Peace brings. Keeping the vow should massively change how the characters deal with challenges, and will generally produce a lot more overhead in terms of captured-prisoner roleplay, defining the details of local systems of justice, plus generally providing circumstances that provide moral challenges without making ridiculous paladin-trap scenarios. This will all get worse if your character advances into Apostle of Peace, where they throw the wrench in the works before combat even begins.

I think you and your player should talk to see if you're both on the same page as to what these vows entail and see if they will fit within the context of the campaign.
bbhamond68
02-19-08, 12:25 PM Thank you for the advice! I now know where to go with this. Thanks again!
Krusk
02-19-08, 03:36 PM Keep in mind vow of peace means he cannot harm a living creature. Vow of poverty means he gets to keep no items, but still has to take his share of the loot and give it to someone who needs it. Exhalted means he is to be held to a higher standard of good than even non-exhaulted paladins.

i know adventuring with someone who does not fight the dragon, im a little iffy about him. Then when he goes and attempts to take a full share of the loot im pretty much stopping him. Then when he goes to give that loot to some poor bum on the street I am quite upset, and my group opts to find a new party member while he is bathing in the river.
Merestil Haye
02-19-08, 03:39 PM No problem. :)

One thing I noted after posting earlier though. At 8th level an ascetic gets an increase to natural armour. The way this is worded is that the character gets an improvement to his existing natural armour bonus. That means the bonus from Vow of Poverty will stack with that of the Vow of Peace. This is contrary to what you might expect from the general rule, which is why I'm flagging it up.
Ace_of_time
02-19-08, 03:53 PM I would like to add the one in need can't be another PC. He has to give it away to the Needy. Church, poor, worth cause, etc.

For the challenges You might have to go for some non combat things but don't forget to keep the others in the group happy with combat. And it says living. And not all of those count on touch AC. Maybe some incop/ sorc stuff. Remember area effects don't care what the AC is.
Commx
02-20-08, 07:39 AM Remember the basic rule of stacking; bonuses of different types stack, but two bonuses of the same type do not.

With that in mind, let's look at your list of his AC bonuses.

Dex +3
Monk class +5 (Wis +1 - this is all one bonus)
+2 Natural Armour (Vow of Peace)
+2 Deflection (Vow of Peace)
+2 Exalted (Vow of Peace)
+6 Exalted (Vow of Poverty)
+1 Deflection (Vow of Poverty)

Those numbers all add up to 21, so I'm assuming that they are what he has.

Both Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty provide an Exalted bonus to AC - so only the higher applies. That would be the +6 he gets from Vow of Poverty.

Both Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty provide a Deflection bonus to AC - so only the higher applies. That would be the +2 he gets from the Vow of Peace.

His AC is therefore 28.

Actually, Vow of Peace specifically states that if you have the Vow of Poverty, you increase the Natural, Deflection and Exalted Armour bonus by two, effectively making it stack. So yes, it would end up at 10 +3(Dex) +5(Monk) +8(Exalted) +2(Natural) +3(Deflection) =31
Tedronai
02-20-08, 06:52 PM Commx speaks true.
calronmoonflower
02-21-08, 03:15 AM Keep in mind vow of peace means he cannot harm a living creature.

Just remember that you are still allowed to deal non-lethal damage. For a monk this is a good option.

However, you cannot knock out enemies so your fellow party members can kill them.
Merestil Haye
02-21-08, 05:04 AM Actually, Vow of Peace specifically states that if you have the Vow of Poverty, you increase the Natural, Deflection and Exalted Armour bonus by two, effectively making it stack. So yes, it would end up at 10 +3(Dex) +5(Monk) +8(Exalted) +2(Natural) +3(Deflection) =31I had to reread the feat twice before I found that sentence.

That makes his claim legit.

As I said above though, he should be expecting to step in harms way a lot. Tying up creatures so they cannot hurt his more vulnerable companions. And no matter how high his AC, natural 20 always hits. So make use of that. From time to time throw him up against enemies with two-handed weapons and Power Attack, or Combat Expertise, and use them.
bbhamond68
02-23-08, 01:31 PM The Vow of Peace (Exalted) states that you gain a +2 natural armor bonus to your AC, a +2 deflection bonus to your AC and a +2 exalted bonus to your Ac . This exalted bonus does not apply to touch attacks and does not hinder incorpeal touch attacks. Brilliant energy weapons however do not ignore it. It does not stack with an armor bonus. If you also have the Vow of Poverty feat, the natrual armor, deflection and exalted armor class bonuses granted by that feat all increase by +2. so, yes they stack! This is a loop hole to the regular rule. A normal Monk at 12th level would have an AC of 30, touch 28, and flat foot at 18. the AC differance between a regular Monk at 12th level and this Monk at 6th level is Normal AC: -8, Touch AC: +7, Flat foot AC: -16. This is causing a problem with EL building that keeps a balanced game for the rest of the players. Any recommendations on what to use to challenge this Monk during an encounter?
Marcus Majarra
02-24-08, 02:24 PM Anything that fights well at range and that can remain far from the monk, such as a flying creature. If there's one thing I've learned from playing a VoP monk, it's that it's a HORRIBLE combination. Seriously. It looks good on paper, but it sucks in practice.
Edymnion
02-25-08, 12:33 PM So... why exactly again is the party adventuring with someone who refuses to help fight, and sucks up an entire share of treasure just to give it all away?

Like has been said, most groups would tie this guy to a tree and leave without him, make a new character.

Remember, just because he's a PC does *NOT* mean the party has to put up with him.
Legdiwena
02-27-08, 01:48 PM Is he an Apostle of Peace or did he just take Vow of Peace? If he took the PrC, it adds +2 to his exalted bonus from Vow of Poverty, not a separate exalted bonus.
eamon
02-27-08, 06:07 PM As a DM, you might want to make sure the entire party realizes that any opponents with half a brain will try to tackle the greatest threat, and certainly not an impossible to hit, hardly damage dealing monk.

A high AC is good, but it may result in others falling, and that risk is quite real in the mechanical sense too - a high AC only helps if the opponents are actually hitting you...
pmurray@bigpond.com
03-01-08, 10:43 AM Tying up creatures so they cannot hurt his more vulnerable companions.

He ought to have a look at the Justicator PrC in Complete Warrior. Do nonlethal damage without penalty, and class features built around restraining foes without harming them.
Legdiwena
03-01-08, 11:49 AM Don't thin he meant in the literal sense, more lie keeping them occupied, feats lie hold the line and such.
Merestil Haye
03-01-08, 11:59 AM He ought to have a look at the Justicator PrC in Complete Warrior. Do nonlethal damage without penalty, and class features built around restraining foes without harming them.

Don't thin he meant in the literal sense, more lie keeping them occupied, feats lie hold the line and such.I did mean that, yes; but pmurray's idea sounds like one a character of this type might well explore. I just haven't read the PrC in a while.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bbhamond68 02-19-08, 06:39 AM	A new player joined the group with a 6th Level Monk and an AC of 31? I looked at the character sheet and saw his base was 10+ dex mod of 3+ wis mod for being a monk was 4+ 1 for being a monk at over 5th level + his voluntary Poverty AC bonuses at 6th level + his Vow of Peace AC bonuses and since he is an Ascetic he recieves a =4 exaled bonus to his AC, this bonus increases to +5 at 3rd level and thereafter by +1 for each character level. for a total of AC 31! My question is do these exaled bonuses stack or overlap? How can a 6th level monk with no weapons or armor have such a high AC? I will have to revamp my NPC stat's which would cause the game to be off balance for the rest of the party. But I can't find an error in the Monk's character sheet.:confused:
Merestil Haye 02-19-08, 07:18 AM	A new player joined the group with a 6th Level Monk and an AC of 31? I looked at the character sheet and saw his base was 10+ dex mod of 3+ wis mod for being a monk was 4+ 1 for being a monk at over 5th level + his voluntary Poverty AC bonuses at 6th level + his Vow of Peace AC bonuses and since he is an Ascetic he recieves a =4 exaled bonus to his AC, this bonus increases to +5 at 3rd level and thereafter by +1 for each character level. for a total of AC 31! My question is do these exaled bonuses stack or overlap? How can a 6th level monk with no weapons or armor have such a high AC? I will have to revamp my NPC stat's which would cause the game to be off balance for the rest of the party. But I can't find an error in the Monk's character sheet.:confused:Remember the basic rule of stacking; bonuses of different types stack, but two bonuses of the same type do not. With that in mind, let's look at your list of his AC bonuses. Dex +3 Monk class +5 (Wis +1 - this is all one bonus) +2 Natural Armour (Vow of Peace) +2 Deflection (Vow of Peace) +2 Exalted (Vow of Peace) +6 Exalted (Vow of Poverty) +1 Deflection (Vow of Poverty) Those numbers all add up to 21, so I'm assuming that they are what he has. Both Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty provide an Exalted bonus to AC - so only the higher applies. That would be the +6 he gets from Vow of Poverty. Both Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty provide a Deflection bonus to AC - so only the higher applies. That would be the +2 he gets from the Vow of Peace. His AC is therefore 28. That's still pretty good for a 6th level character. A regular Monks with the two ability modifiers noted and the requisite amount of gear probably won't quite match that. On the other hand, that's where most of his "resources" are sunk - in not being hit - and frankly, Exalted characters should be in a position to soak up attacks so innocents (and/or their companions) don't get hurt. Find ways to affect him without attacking him directly. Throw the occasional incorporeal undead at him, and bypass 8 points of his AC. (Exalted bonuses to AC don't hinder Incorporeal Touch attacks).
Andrew 02-19-08, 08:43 AM	More that will cause a problem is the play restrictions a character with Vow of Peace brings. Keeping the vow should massively change how the characters deal with challenges, and will generally produce a lot more overhead in terms of captured-prisoner roleplay, defining the details of local systems of justice, plus generally providing circumstances that provide moral challenges without making ridiculous paladin-trap scenarios. This will all get worse if your character advances into Apostle of Peace, where they throw the wrench in the works before combat even begins. I think you and your player should talk to see if you're both on the same page as to what these vows entail and see if they will fit within the context of the campaign.
bbhamond68 02-19-08, 12:25 PM	Thank you for the advice! I now know where to go with this. Thanks again!
Krusk 02-19-08, 03:36 PM	Keep in mind vow of peace means he cannot harm a living creature. Vow of poverty means he gets to keep no items, but still has to take his share of the loot and give it to someone who needs it. Exhalted means he is to be held to a higher standard of good than even non-exhaulted paladins. i know adventuring with someone who does not fight the dragon, im a little iffy about him. Then when he goes and attempts to take a full share of the loot im pretty much stopping him. Then when he goes to give that loot to some poor bum on the street I am quite upset, and my group opts to find a new party member while he is bathing in the river.
Merestil Haye 02-19-08, 03:39 PM	No problem. :) One thing I noted after posting earlier though. At 8th level an ascetic gets an increase to natural armour. The way this is worded is that the character gets an improvement to his existing natural armour bonus. That means the bonus from Vow of Poverty will stack with that of the Vow of Peace. This is contrary to what you might expect from the general rule, which is why I'm flagging it up.
Ace_of_time 02-19-08, 03:53 PM	I would like to add the one in need can't be another PC. He has to give it away to the Needy. Church, poor, worth cause, etc. For the challenges You might have to go for some non combat things but don't forget to keep the others in the group happy with combat. And it says living. And not all of those count on touch AC. Maybe some incop/ sorc stuff. Remember area effects don't care what the AC is.
Commx 02-20-08, 07:39 AM	Remember the basic rule of stacking; bonuses of different types stack, but two bonuses of the same type do not. With that in mind, let's look at your list of his AC bonuses. Dex +3 Monk class +5 (Wis +1 - this is all one bonus) +2 Natural Armour (Vow of Peace) +2 Deflection (Vow of Peace) +2 Exalted (Vow of Peace) +6 Exalted (Vow of Poverty) +1 Deflection (Vow of Poverty) Those numbers all add up to 21, so I'm assuming that they are what he has. Both Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty provide an Exalted bonus to AC - so only the higher applies. That would be the +6 he gets from Vow of Poverty. Both Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty provide a Deflection bonus to AC - so only the higher applies. That would be the +2 he gets from the Vow of Peace. His AC is therefore 28. Actually, Vow of Peace specifically states that if you have the Vow of Poverty, you increase the Natural, Deflection and Exalted Armour bonus by two, effectively making it stack. So yes, it would end up at 10 +3(Dex) +5(Monk) +8(Exalted) +2(Natural) +3(Deflection) =31
Tedronai 02-20-08, 06:52 PM	Commx speaks true.
calronmoonflower 02-21-08, 03:15 AM	Keep in mind vow of peace means he cannot harm a living creature. Just remember that you are still allowed to deal non-lethal damage. For a monk this is a good option. However, you cannot knock out enemies so your fellow party members can kill them.
Merestil Haye 02-21-08, 05:04 AM	Actually, Vow of Peace specifically states that if you have the Vow of Poverty, you increase the Natural, Deflection and Exalted Armour bonus by two, effectively making it stack. So yes, it would end up at 10 +3(Dex) +5(Monk) +8(Exalted) +2(Natural) +3(Deflection) =31I had to reread the feat twice before I found that sentence. That makes his claim legit. As I said above though, he should be expecting to step in harms way a lot. Tying up creatures so they cannot hurt his more vulnerable companions. And no matter how high his AC, natural 20 always hits. So make use of that. From time to time throw him up against enemies with two-handed weapons and Power Attack, or Combat Expertise, and use them.
bbhamond68 02-23-08, 01:31 PM	The Vow of Peace (Exalted) states that you gain a +2 natural armor bonus to your AC, a +2 deflection bonus to your AC and a +2 exalted bonus to your Ac . This exalted bonus does not apply to touch attacks and does not hinder incorpeal touch attacks. Brilliant energy weapons however do not ignore it. It does not stack with an armor bonus. If you also have the Vow of Poverty feat, the natrual armor, deflection and exalted armor class bonuses granted by that feat all increase by +2. so, yes they stack! This is a loop hole to the regular rule. A normal Monk at 12th level would have an AC of 30, touch 28, and flat foot at 18. the AC differance between a regular Monk at 12th level and this Monk at 6th level is Normal AC: -8, Touch AC: +7, Flat foot AC: -16. This is causing a problem with EL building that keeps a balanced game for the rest of the players. Any recommendations on what to use to challenge this Monk during an encounter?
Marcus Majarra 02-24-08, 02:24 PM	Anything that fights well at range and that can remain far from the monk, such as a flying creature. If there's one thing I've learned from playing a VoP monk, it's that it's a HORRIBLE combination. Seriously. It looks good on paper, but it sucks in practice.
Edymnion 02-25-08, 12:33 PM	So... why exactly again is the party adventuring with someone who refuses to help fight, and sucks up an entire share of treasure just to give it all away? Like has been said, most groups would tie this guy to a tree and leave without him, make a new character. Remember, just because he's a PC does NOT mean the party has to put up with him.
Legdiwena 02-27-08, 01:48 PM	Is he an Apostle of Peace or did he just take Vow of Peace? If he took the PrC, it adds +2 to his exalted bonus from Vow of Poverty, not a separate exalted bonus.
eamon 02-27-08, 06:07 PM	As a DM, you might want to make sure the entire party realizes that any opponents with half a brain will try to tackle the greatest threat, and certainly not an impossible to hit, hardly damage dealing monk. A high AC is good, but it may result in others falling, and that risk is quite real in the mechanical sense too - a high AC only helps if the opponents are actually hitting you...
pmurray@bigpond.com 03-01-08, 10:43 AM	Tying up creatures so they cannot hurt his more vulnerable companions. He ought to have a look at the Justicator PrC in Complete Warrior. Do nonlethal damage without penalty, and class features built around restraining foes without harming them.
Legdiwena 03-01-08, 11:49 AM	Don't thin he meant in the literal sense, more lie keeping them occupied, feats lie hold the line and such.
Merestil Haye 03-01-08, 11:59 AM	He ought to have a look at the Justicator PrC in Complete Warrior. Do nonlethal damage without penalty, and class features built around restraining foes without harming them. Don't thin he meant in the literal sense, more lie keeping them occupied, feats lie hold the line and such.I did mean that, yes; but pmurray's idea sounds like one a character of this type might well explore. I just haven't read the PrC in a while.