Monk two-weapon fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monk two-weapon fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pegasos989
04-24-07, 10:57 AM So... A friend of mine said that monk who chooses TWF can't deliver offhand attacks with unarmed strike, due to "Monk's unarmed attack is never concidered offhand..." (or something like that) text.

As I checked it, there really is text looking like that and as I look at two-weapon fighting descriptions, "you wield a second weapon as offhand weapon"...

So by RAW, is it really impossible for monk to TWF with unarmed attacks?
orionm42
04-24-07, 11:07 AM From the FAQ...:)

The description of the flurry of blows ability says there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean, exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to flurry attacks?

Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack, even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra attacks, or both.

The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits.

To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry, the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2 flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks, each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s Strength bonus to damage (+1).

If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry (in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available for the flurry and vice versa.
Steely_Dan
04-24-07, 11:11 AM 18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting, Multiattack and a 10 Str:

Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +13

15 attacks per round.
Kouk
04-24-07, 02:24 PM CustServ told me that monks can use two weapon fighting with both hands as counting as the full normal unarmed damage. Normal TWF penalties apply to attack rolls.
tos_shai_hulud
04-24-07, 02:38 PM CustServ told me that monks can use two weapon fighting with both hands as counting as the full normal unarmed damage. Normal TWF penalties apply to attack rolls.

I don't understand what you are writing here. Isn't this the same as what is written two posts above yours in the excerpt from the FAQ?
orionm42
04-24-07, 03:28 PM I don't understand what you are writing here. Isn't this the same as what is written two posts above yours in the excerpt from the FAQ?

The FAQ says the extra "off-hand attack adds half the monk’s Strength bonus to damage." I believe Kouk is saying customer service said you can add your full damage to such attacks.
tos_shai_hulud
04-24-07, 03:36 PM The FAQ says the extra "off-hand attack adds half the monk’s Strength bonus to damage." I believe Kouk is saying customer service said you can add your full damage to such attacks.

Oh, perhaps customer service thought he was talking about Flurry of Blows. In a flurry of blows, you add your full strength to all attacks during the flurry, but to the off-hand attacks, you always add half strength.
orionm42
04-24-07, 03:47 PM Oh, perhaps customer service thought he was talking about Flurry of Blows. In a flurry of blows, you add your full strength to all attacks during the flurry, but to the off-hand attacks, you always add half strength.

Or, customer service might just have been wrong! Imagine that!! :D
Kouk
04-24-07, 06:43 PM Actually I was trying to simplify it but apparently I failed. What I was told by customer service was that both of your hands do the same base damage regardless of off-hand or not, but half damage still applies for off-hand. Otherwise they are just weapons usable as normal with TWF, which was the point I was trying to make.
Vharuck
04-24-07, 08:34 PM Really, it's not that bad power-wise. They attack more often, granted, but with a monk's BAB, Flurry of Blows' penalties, and now TWF's penalties, the monk's very likely to miss with most of those attacks.
Pegasos989
04-25-07, 10:25 AM Really, it's not that bad power-wise. They attack more often, granted, but with a monk's BAB, Flurry of Blows' penalties, and now TWF's penalties, the monk's very likely to miss with most of those attacks.

Yeah, agreed. Actually, I think that a ex-monk/barbarian build that flurries while two-handed wielding a quarterstaff is much more powerful.

I would propably have allowed monk TWFing with unarmed strike anyways. Just wanted to know what rules say of the subject.
Frugal
04-25-07, 10:33 AM Yeah, agreed. Actually, I think that a ex-monk/barbarian build that flurries while two-handed wielding a quarterstaff is much more powerful.

Well ex-monk barbarian cheese aside, what's the quarterstaff issue? If he's flurrying with the staff then both ends are counted, then he'll get off-hand unarmed strikes. If he's using his unarmed strikes as his primary weapon then he'll get off-hand attacks with one end of the staff.
Pegasos989
04-25-07, 11:09 AM Well ex-monk barbarian cheese aside, what's the quarterstaff issue? If he's flurrying with the staff then both ends are counted, then he'll get off-hand unarmed strikes. If he's using his unarmed strikes as his primary weapon then he'll get off-hand attacks with one end of the staff.

I meant that a more powerful than TWF monk would be ex-monk/barbarian (or even current monk with high STR) using one end of quarterstaff as two-handed weapon and flurrying with it... Though after rereading the FoB description I am not confident that he would get 1.5x STR when flurrying with two-handed weapon so the point might be moot...
Frugal
04-25-07, 11:12 AM I meant that a more powerful than TWF monk would be ex-monk/barbarian (or even current monk with high STR) using one end of quarterstaff as two-handed weapon and flurrying with it... Though after rereading the FoB description I am not confident that he would get 1.5x STR when flurrying with two-handed weapon so the point might be moot...

He doesn't, you get 1x STR bonus for all attacks in the flurry, it's explicitly stated. What's unclear is if you get the 2:1 benefit from Power Attack, I'd be inclined to rule no but it's unstated.
mvincent
04-26-07, 01:33 PM From the FAQ...:)From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a):
"A monk using one or two special monk weapons simply substitutes one attack from each weapon (or from one or both ends of a quarterstaff) as part of a full attack (including a flurry of blows). The monk need not take any penalties for off-hand or two-weapon attacks. The monk, however, does not get an extra attack from a second weapon. If the monk is using a flurry of blows, she adds her full Strength bonus to damage from any successful attack, even if she uses what normally would be her off hand, or uses one end of a quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon.

If a monk is not using her flurry of blows ability, she can claim an extra attack from a second weapon. If she does, she takes all the penalties for attacking with two weapons and for attacking with off-hand weapons. A monk using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack does not suffer any off-hand penalties; however, under the regular rules for two-weapon fighting you get only one extra attack for an off-hand weapon."

Yes, this conflicts with the FAQ. Note that the RotG article is much more recent than the FAQ entry, however it may not be viewed as official as the FAQ. The DM should decide which option to use.
mvincent
04-26-07, 01:36 PM I meant that a more powerful than TWF monk would be ex-monk/barbarian (or even current monk with high STR) using one end of quarterstaff as two-handed weapon and flurrying with it... Though after rereading the FoB description I am not confident that he would get 1.5x STR when flurrying with two-handed weapon so the point might be moot...Correct. The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) say:
"When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus Ч 1Ѕ or ЧЅ) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pegasos989 04-24-07, 10:57 AM	So... A friend of mine said that monk who chooses TWF can't deliver offhand attacks with unarmed strike, due to "Monk's unarmed attack is never concidered offhand..." (or something like that) text. As I checked it, there really is text looking like that and as I look at two-weapon fighting descriptions, "you wield a second weapon as offhand weapon"... So by RAW, is it really impossible for monk to TWF with unarmed attacks?
orionm42 04-24-07, 11:07 AM	From the FAQ...:) The description of the flurry of blows ability says there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean, exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to flurry attacks? Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack, even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra attacks, or both. The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits. To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry, the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2 flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks, each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s Strength bonus to damage (+1). If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry (in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available for the flurry and vice versa.
Steely_Dan 04-24-07, 11:11 AM	18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting, Multiattack and a 10 Str: Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +13 15 attacks per round.
Kouk 04-24-07, 02:24 PM	CustServ told me that monks can use two weapon fighting with both hands as counting as the full normal unarmed damage. Normal TWF penalties apply to attack rolls.
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-07, 02:38 PM	CustServ told me that monks can use two weapon fighting with both hands as counting as the full normal unarmed damage. Normal TWF penalties apply to attack rolls. I don't understand what you are writing here. Isn't this the same as what is written two posts above yours in the excerpt from the FAQ?
orionm42 04-24-07, 03:28 PM	I don't understand what you are writing here. Isn't this the same as what is written two posts above yours in the excerpt from the FAQ? The FAQ says the extra "off-hand attack adds half the monk’s Strength bonus to damage." I believe Kouk is saying customer service said you can add your full damage to such attacks.
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-07, 03:36 PM	The FAQ says the extra "off-hand attack adds half the monk’s Strength bonus to damage." I believe Kouk is saying customer service said you can add your full damage to such attacks. Oh, perhaps customer service thought he was talking about Flurry of Blows. In a flurry of blows, you add your full strength to all attacks during the flurry, but to the off-hand attacks, you always add half strength.
orionm42 04-24-07, 03:47 PM	Oh, perhaps customer service thought he was talking about Flurry of Blows. In a flurry of blows, you add your full strength to all attacks during the flurry, but to the off-hand attacks, you always add half strength. Or, customer service might just have been wrong! Imagine that!! :D
Kouk 04-24-07, 06:43 PM	Actually I was trying to simplify it but apparently I failed. What I was told by customer service was that both of your hands do the same base damage regardless of off-hand or not, but half damage still applies for off-hand. Otherwise they are just weapons usable as normal with TWF, which was the point I was trying to make.
Vharuck 04-24-07, 08:34 PM	Really, it's not that bad power-wise. They attack more often, granted, but with a monk's BAB, Flurry of Blows' penalties, and now TWF's penalties, the monk's very likely to miss with most of those attacks.
Pegasos989 04-25-07, 10:25 AM	Really, it's not that bad power-wise. They attack more often, granted, but with a monk's BAB, Flurry of Blows' penalties, and now TWF's penalties, the monk's very likely to miss with most of those attacks. Yeah, agreed. Actually, I think that a ex-monk/barbarian build that flurries while two-handed wielding a quarterstaff is much more powerful. I would propably have allowed monk TWFing with unarmed strike anyways. Just wanted to know what rules say of the subject.
Frugal 04-25-07, 10:33 AM	Yeah, agreed. Actually, I think that a ex-monk/barbarian build that flurries while two-handed wielding a quarterstaff is much more powerful. Well ex-monk barbarian cheese aside, what's the quarterstaff issue? If he's flurrying with the staff then both ends are counted, then he'll get off-hand unarmed strikes. If he's using his unarmed strikes as his primary weapon then he'll get off-hand attacks with one end of the staff.
Pegasos989 04-25-07, 11:09 AM	Well ex-monk barbarian cheese aside, what's the quarterstaff issue? If he's flurrying with the staff then both ends are counted, then he'll get off-hand unarmed strikes. If he's using his unarmed strikes as his primary weapon then he'll get off-hand attacks with one end of the staff. I meant that a more powerful than TWF monk would be ex-monk/barbarian (or even current monk with high STR) using one end of quarterstaff as two-handed weapon and flurrying with it... Though after rereading the FoB description I am not confident that he would get 1.5x STR when flurrying with two-handed weapon so the point might be moot...
Frugal 04-25-07, 11:12 AM	I meant that a more powerful than TWF monk would be ex-monk/barbarian (or even current monk with high STR) using one end of quarterstaff as two-handed weapon and flurrying with it... Though after rereading the FoB description I am not confident that he would get 1.5x STR when flurrying with two-handed weapon so the point might be moot... He doesn't, you get 1x STR bonus for all attacks in the flurry, it's explicitly stated. What's unclear is if you get the 2:1 benefit from Power Attack, I'd be inclined to rule no but it's unstated.
mvincent 04-26-07, 01:33 PM	From the FAQ...:)From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a): "A monk using one or two special monk weapons simply substitutes one attack from each weapon (or from one or both ends of a quarterstaff) as part of a full attack (including a flurry of blows). The monk need not take any penalties for off-hand or two-weapon attacks. The monk, however, does not get an extra attack from a second weapon. If the monk is using a flurry of blows, she adds her full Strength bonus to damage from any successful attack, even if she uses what normally would be her off hand, or uses one end of a quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon. If a monk is not using her flurry of blows ability, she can claim an extra attack from a second weapon. If she does, she takes all the penalties for attacking with two weapons and for attacking with off-hand weapons. A monk using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack does not suffer any off-hand penalties; however, under the regular rules for two-weapon fighting you get only one extra attack for an off-hand weapon." Yes, this conflicts with the FAQ. Note that the RotG article is much more recent than the FAQ entry, however it may not be viewed as official as the FAQ. The DM should decide which option to use.
mvincent 04-26-07, 01:36 PM	I meant that a more powerful than TWF monk would be ex-monk/barbarian (or even current monk with high STR) using one end of quarterstaff as two-handed weapon and flurrying with it... Though after rereading the FoB description I am not confident that he would get 1.5x STR when flurrying with two-handed weapon so the point might be moot...Correct. The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) say: "When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus Ч 1Ѕ or ЧЅ) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands."