Monsters with Class Levels - associated vs. non-associated, ability arrays and CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monsters with Class Levels - associated vs. non-associated, ability arrays and CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Belljar
08-23-07, 01:04 PM The problem I'm having is this:

I'm upgrading Monster race NPCs with class levels and trying to figure out how to stat and assign CR. Case in point; A Briarvex (MMIV) Druid. Druid levels strike me as non-associated for this race (Large size and high Str and Con), though in the Advancement section it says they occasionally take Druid class levels. Still, I'm assuming non-associated. Aiming for CR13, he's a L9 Druid (8 levels of Druid at +1/2 CR/level for non-associated class, plus one level at +1 CR as the Briarvex has 8 Racial HD) with the Prodigy bonus from DMGII, +6 CR for being a Briarvex (CR 6 Racial, +4 CR for 8 levels of Druid, +1 CR for 1 level of Druid past his Racial HD, +1 for Prodigy=CR 13). Ok, so far so good. Then I come to the issue of his ability scores. It says in the MM that monster NPCs with class levels use the elite array, and normal creatures use the 11 11 11 10 10 10 array.

So, do I have to upgrade his base stats to the Elite array, modify them for the difference between the MM entry and the non-elite array, and apply any further ability score increases from class levels and racial HD? And does this increase the CR?
Marcus Majarra
08-23-07, 01:27 PM You got the CR right. For ability scores, you use the elite array as you would for any creature with PC class levels. Ability increases you still get every four levels, but your racial HD ability increases are already tallied in. Any excess racial HD above a multiple of four still count towards your next ability increases. In your case, the Briarvex has 8 racial HD, so you don't get any extra ability increases beyond the normal ability modifiers of the Briarvex.
Belljar
08-23-07, 03:57 PM Yes. Do I then take the printed stats of the Briarvex, subtract the non-elite array scores and the two ability increases for the racial HD to get the racial bonuses, apply the Elite array and re-apply the bonuses to customize the ability scores to suit a Druid?
Sildatorak
08-23-07, 04:14 PM Yes. Do I then take the printed stats of the Briarvex, subtract the non-elite array scores Yes, subtract 11 from every odd and 10 from every even stat. and the two ability increases for the racial HDDon't worry about this, it is basically assumed that all briarvexes will put those 2 points into the same stat to form part of their racial stat bonuses. apply the Elite array and re-apply the bonuses to customize the ability scores to suit a Druid?Yes. Then you will add 2 points for the stat increases due to druid levels.
Khadmus
08-27-07, 12:01 PM I find the non-associated CR screws up at lower levels. A Lizardfolk with 2 non-associated class levels is CR 2. A human with the same levels is also CR 2.
eamon
08-28-07, 05:40 PM I find the non-associated CR screws up at lower levels. A Lizardfolk with 2 non-associated class levels is CR 2. A human with the same levels is also CR 2.That, however, is less because the lizardfolk is being underrated, and more because the human is being overrated.

The briarvex could btw use the PHB2 shapeshift variant of the druid, in which case the shapeshift is actually somewhat useful. (unlike wildshape, which is mostly useless, and an animal companion, which may be useful, but is also a hassle). I think I'd wing exactly how many druid levels still count as "non-associated". I mean, druid is probably more associated than say, sorcerer or so, right? It's all a sliding scale anyhow - use the salt shaker appropriately ;-).
Khadmus
08-31-07, 07:38 PM Druid was an example. I can easily see the metagaming lizardfolk that is aware of the CR rules (impossible, but still...) taking 2 levels of sorceror instead of a fighter level [Sor gives the same +1 BAB, gives .5 hp less before Con modifier, gives some nifty spells]
Count Arioch the 28th
09-01-07, 01:43 PM So, do I have to upgrade his base stats to the Elite array, modify them for the difference between the MM entry and the non-elite array, and apply any further ability score increases from class levels and racial HD? And does this increase the CR?

I know a quicker method that I use.

Just apply the following modifiers to the stats of your choice: +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2.

That will give you an elite briarvex for PC class use.

And if you are adding a PC class, applying those modifiers does not increase CR. If you're just adding it for snits and giggles, you add +1 to CR.
Belljar
01-13-08, 03:18 PM And if you are adding a PC class, applying those modifiers does not increase CR. If you're just adding it for snits and giggles, you add +1 to CR.

Re-heally?? Is this true? Makes a big difference.
Colmarr
01-13-08, 06:42 PM Count Arioch is correct.

The ability adjustments are part and parcel of adding class levels and are included in the class-based adjustment of CR. There's no further adjustment just for the ability scores.
eamon
01-18-08, 05:55 PM Count Arioch is correct.

The ability adjustments are part and parcel of adding class levels and are included in the class-based adjustment of CR. There's no further adjustment just for the ability scores.

It's true, at least, according to the MM guidelines. Again, I advise many grains of salt and comparisons with benchmark monsters if you want to make sure.

It's possible to make broken builds using PC rules and level adjustments. It's easy as a DM, using CR guidelines.

Remember that CR is a tool to help you judge how difficult a monster/NPC is to overcome, and how much experience it should be worth. If you end up spending time optimizing around these guidlines to get a stronger creature of the "same" CR, you're not helping yourself. You can also just take the straighforward path and adjust the CR adhoc.

For example; adding the "elite" array to a CR 10 Fire giant adds +1 CR, nominally. Adding 1 level of fighter does too, but it also adds equipment for an 11th level NPC, and an extra HD (granting a fighter bonus feat here, and an ability score increase for reaching 16th HD). Those two nominally CR 11 creatures aren't nearly as strong as each other, of course. The 1st level fighter will be too strong, and the elite arrayed giant probably too weak (though that depends).

The guidelines are good starting points. No more.
Lilinthra
01-20-08, 01:31 PM For example; adding the "elite" array to a CR 10 Fire giant adds +1 CR, nominally. Adding 1 level of fighter does too, but it also adds equipment for an 11th level NPC, and an extra HD (granting a fighter bonus feat here, and an ability score increase for reaching 16th HD). Those two nominally CR 11 creatures aren't nearly as strong as each other, of course. The 1st level fighter will be too strong, and the elite arrayed giant probably too weak (though that depends).
I believe that the Fire Giant Fighter 1 in your example only gets the gear value of a 1st level NPC (in addition to its standard treasure roll for a CR 10). See Page 51 of the DMG.
eamon
01-21-08, 05:52 AM I believe that the Fire Giant Fighter 1 in your example only gets the gear value of a 1st level NPC (in addition to its standard treasure roll for a CR 10). See Page 51 of the DMG.

The primary source on monster advancement is however the Monster manual, p291: "If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase."

...which is utterly broken, though consistent with the concept of monstrous PC's.

DMG p51: " To determine treasure for monsters with class levels, first
give them equipment. Use Table 4–23: NPC Gear Value (page 127)
and use just their class levels to determine the value of their equip-
ment."

Neither has been errata'd concerning this inconsistency. The DMG method is wonky in terms of total treasure value, and the MM's is consistent but horribly unbalanced.

However, the MM 5 suggests: "A creature that has been advanced by class levels has treasure equal to an NPC of its Challenge Rating, not its ECL."

That rule works best (wealth-wise), though it doesn't solve the CR dilemma - but that's posed largely by the bad guidelines. A guideline which promotes the same CR adjustment for adding a full PC-class, elite ability scores and some character wealth compared to simply adding elite abilities is horrifyingly inaccurate anyhow:

Imagine a succubus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus) with a level of marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) (30-34 cha, i.e. +10 to +12 minor aura bonus) supporting a few pit fiends. Would that creature - even without wealth - be representative of a CR8 monster? Would a lillend (CR7) which is large, has improved grab and constrict not benefit extraordarily from a level of monk - for +6 AC, +2 on saves, an extra HD, and improved grapple? Or a huge storm giant, for that matter? A salamander (constrict and heat combine awfully well with improved grapple)?

The rules frequently say that advancing monsters is tricky business and suggest that you should compare the results with other monsters of a similar CR. That's solid advice - the other guidelines are much less set in stone.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Belljar 08-23-07, 01:04 PM	The problem I'm having is this: I'm upgrading Monster race NPCs with class levels and trying to figure out how to stat and assign CR. Case in point; A Briarvex (MMIV) Druid. Druid levels strike me as non-associated for this race (Large size and high Str and Con), though in the Advancement section it says they occasionally take Druid class levels. Still, I'm assuming non-associated. Aiming for CR13, he's a L9 Druid (8 levels of Druid at +1/2 CR/level for non-associated class, plus one level at +1 CR as the Briarvex has 8 Racial HD) with the Prodigy bonus from DMGII, +6 CR for being a Briarvex (CR 6 Racial, +4 CR for 8 levels of Druid, +1 CR for 1 level of Druid past his Racial HD, +1 for Prodigy=CR 13). Ok, so far so good. Then I come to the issue of his ability scores. It says in the MM that monster NPCs with class levels use the elite array, and normal creatures use the 11 11 11 10 10 10 array. So, do I have to upgrade his base stats to the Elite array, modify them for the difference between the MM entry and the non-elite array, and apply any further ability score increases from class levels and racial HD? And does this increase the CR?
Marcus Majarra 08-23-07, 01:27 PM	You got the CR right. For ability scores, you use the elite array as you would for any creature with PC class levels. Ability increases you still get every four levels, but your racial HD ability increases are already tallied in. Any excess racial HD above a multiple of four still count towards your next ability increases. In your case, the Briarvex has 8 racial HD, so you don't get any extra ability increases beyond the normal ability modifiers of the Briarvex.
Belljar 08-23-07, 03:57 PM	Yes. Do I then take the printed stats of the Briarvex, subtract the non-elite array scores and the two ability increases for the racial HD to get the racial bonuses, apply the Elite array and re-apply the bonuses to customize the ability scores to suit a Druid?
Sildatorak 08-23-07, 04:14 PM	Yes. Do I then take the printed stats of the Briarvex, subtract the non-elite array scores Yes, subtract 11 from every odd and 10 from every even stat. and the two ability increases for the racial HDDon't worry about this, it is basically assumed that all briarvexes will put those 2 points into the same stat to form part of their racial stat bonuses. apply the Elite array and re-apply the bonuses to customize the ability scores to suit a Druid?Yes. Then you will add 2 points for the stat increases due to druid levels.
Khadmus 08-27-07, 12:01 PM	I find the non-associated CR screws up at lower levels. A Lizardfolk with 2 non-associated class levels is CR 2. A human with the same levels is also CR 2.
eamon 08-28-07, 05:40 PM	I find the non-associated CR screws up at lower levels. A Lizardfolk with 2 non-associated class levels is CR 2. A human with the same levels is also CR 2.That, however, is less because the lizardfolk is being underrated, and more because the human is being overrated. The briarvex could btw use the PHB2 shapeshift variant of the druid, in which case the shapeshift is actually somewhat useful. (unlike wildshape, which is mostly useless, and an animal companion, which may be useful, but is also a hassle). I think I'd wing exactly how many druid levels still count as "non-associated". I mean, druid is probably more associated than say, sorcerer or so, right? It's all a sliding scale anyhow - use the salt shaker appropriately ;-).
Khadmus 08-31-07, 07:38 PM	Druid was an example. I can easily see the metagaming lizardfolk that is aware of the CR rules (impossible, but still...) taking 2 levels of sorceror instead of a fighter level [Sor gives the same +1 BAB, gives .5 hp less before Con modifier, gives some nifty spells]
Count Arioch the 28th 09-01-07, 01:43 PM	So, do I have to upgrade his base stats to the Elite array, modify them for the difference between the MM entry and the non-elite array, and apply any further ability score increases from class levels and racial HD? And does this increase the CR? I know a quicker method that I use. Just apply the following modifiers to the stats of your choice: +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2. That will give you an elite briarvex for PC class use. And if you are adding a PC class, applying those modifiers does not increase CR. If you're just adding it for snits and giggles, you add +1 to CR.
Belljar 01-13-08, 03:18 PM	And if you are adding a PC class, applying those modifiers does not increase CR. If you're just adding it for snits and giggles, you add +1 to CR. Re-heally?? Is this true? Makes a big difference.
Colmarr 01-13-08, 06:42 PM	Count Arioch is correct. The ability adjustments are part and parcel of adding class levels and are included in the class-based adjustment of CR. There's no further adjustment just for the ability scores.
eamon 01-18-08, 05:55 PM	Count Arioch is correct. The ability adjustments are part and parcel of adding class levels and are included in the class-based adjustment of CR. There's no further adjustment just for the ability scores. It's true, at least, according to the MM guidelines. Again, I advise many grains of salt and comparisons with benchmark monsters if you want to make sure. It's possible to make broken builds using PC rules and level adjustments. It's easy as a DM, using CR guidelines. Remember that CR is a tool to help you judge how difficult a monster/NPC is to overcome, and how much experience it should be worth. If you end up spending time optimizing around these guidlines to get a stronger creature of the "same" CR, you're not helping yourself. You can also just take the straighforward path and adjust the CR adhoc. For example; adding the "elite" array to a CR 10 Fire giant adds +1 CR, nominally. Adding 1 level of fighter does too, but it also adds equipment for an 11th level NPC, and an extra HD (granting a fighter bonus feat here, and an ability score increase for reaching 16th HD). Those two nominally CR 11 creatures aren't nearly as strong as each other, of course. The 1st level fighter will be too strong, and the elite arrayed giant probably too weak (though that depends). The guidelines are good starting points. No more.
Lilinthra 01-20-08, 01:31 PM	For example; adding the "elite" array to a CR 10 Fire giant adds +1 CR, nominally. Adding 1 level of fighter does too, but it also adds equipment for an 11th level NPC, and an extra HD (granting a fighter bonus feat here, and an ability score increase for reaching 16th HD). Those two nominally CR 11 creatures aren't nearly as strong as each other, of course. The 1st level fighter will be too strong, and the elite arrayed giant probably too weak (though that depends). I believe that the Fire Giant Fighter 1 in your example only gets the gear value of a 1st level NPC (in addition to its standard treasure roll for a CR 10). See Page 51 of the DMG.
eamon 01-21-08, 05:52 AM	I believe that the Fire Giant Fighter 1 in your example only gets the gear value of a 1st level NPC (in addition to its standard treasure roll for a CR 10). See Page 51 of the DMG. The primary source on monster advancement is however the Monster manual, p291: "If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase." ...which is utterly broken, though consistent with the concept of monstrous PC's. DMG p51: " To determine treasure for monsters with class levels, first give them equipment. Use Table 4–23: NPC Gear Value (page 127) and use just their class levels to determine the value of their equip- ment." Neither has been errata'd concerning this inconsistency. The DMG method is wonky in terms of total treasure value, and the MM's is consistent but horribly unbalanced. However, the MM 5 suggests: "A creature that has been advanced by class levels has treasure equal to an NPC of its Challenge Rating, not its ECL." That rule works best (wealth-wise), though it doesn't solve the CR dilemma - but that's posed largely by the bad guidelines. A guideline which promotes the same CR adjustment for adding a full PC-class, elite ability scores and some character wealth compared to simply adding elite abilities is horrifyingly inaccurate anyhow: Imagine a succubus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus) with a level of marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) (30-34 cha, i.e. +10 to +12 minor aura bonus) supporting a few pit fiends. Would that creature - even without wealth - be representative of a CR8 monster? Would a lillend (CR7) which is large, has improved grab and constrict not benefit extraordarily from a level of monk - for +6 AC, +2 on saves, an extra HD, and improved grapple? Or a huge storm giant, for that matter? A salamander (constrict and heat combine awfully well with improved grapple)? The rules frequently say that advancing monsters is tricky business and suggest that you should compare the results with other monsters of a similar CR. That's solid advice - the other guidelines are much less set in stone.