Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tunllaw 08-29-07, 04:19 PM	Just wondering if your STR mod applys to your +hit for base attack bonus, sorry its a stupid question but it doesent make sense to me that how strong you ar effects your ability to meet a target. :confused:
Jenrock 08-29-07, 04:27 PM	Indeed it does. The issues is balance versus realism1. It would be more realistic (to me) to have hand-eye cooridination (Dexterity) determine that, but Dexterity is already the determining factor for some many things that it is more balanced to give it to strength. 1 I realize how dangerous it is to use this word in conjunction with D&D, but I simply couldn't think of a better one.
heffroncm 08-29-07, 04:46 PM	Just wondering if your STR mod applys to your +hit for base attack bonus, sorry its a stupid question but it doesent make sense to me that how strong you ar effects your ability to meet a target. :confused: It helps if you remember that "hitting" in D&D is not only getting your blade to connect through all the target's attempts to dodge, parry, and evade, but also getting your weapon to penetrate the target's armor. The basic rationalization I've heard is that your Base Attack Bonus is your skill with arms, so your ability to hit despite their efforts to evade, and your Strength and weapon enhancement bonuses are your ability to penetrate the opponent's armor.
Eater_Of_Souls 08-29-07, 04:56 PM	My group used a dex for melee -variant for a while but it has problems with certain feats and abilities.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-29-07, 04:58 PM	Note that your Str mod applies to your attack bonus, not your base attack bonus. Str helps you connect in melee, but it doesn't give you extra attacks per round any earlier. And sure it makes sense. Say you hit a guy on the head with a hammer and he's wearing a full burgonet helm and buffe. Something like this: http://www.mwart.com/images/p/Helmets_Royal_Guards_Burgonet_8120_533.j pg You're not going to connect on his skull directly either way, but how strong you are determines whether you glance the hammer off the helmet harmlessly, or jar it sufficiently to bounce his head off the inside of the helm and rattle his brains a bit.
Stardust 08-29-07, 05:05 PM	Like others said, BAB + str equates to skill + power. However, some of the smaller weapons don't work quite the same (like daggers for instance), so Weapon Finesse is more appropriate for trying to slip between the plates of the armor etc. In my games there's no Weapon Finesse feat, if a weapon if finessable, a character may use their dex bonus without taking a feat. Works for us.
Salla 08-29-07, 05:12 PM	Consider also that a stronger person will swing his weapon faster and with greater force, which will make it harder to block or dodge.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-29-07, 05:29 PM	Consider also that a stronger person will swing his weapon faster and with greater force, which will make it harder to block or dodge. There is that, too. Good luck avoiding the second blow when the first you blocked carried so much force your arms momentarily went numb. :D
StevenO 08-29-07, 09:12 PM	Just wondering if your STR mod applys to your +hit for base attack bonus, sorry its a stupid question but it doesent make sense to me that how strong you ar effects your ability to meet a target. :confused: Your STR bonus does NOT apply to your Base Attack Bonus (BAB for short) but does apply to all of your melee attacks unless other feats are used. Strength may not have such a big effect on making contact with an opponent but it can certainly effect how effective that contact is which is also part of what your AC represents. If you want a demonstration toss a baseball at a window; if the window is good the ball should just bounce off without effect and this is what a low strength represents. Now take that same ball and throw it at the window as hard as you can or hit it into the window with a bat; odds are you actually cause some damage this time (unless it is an extremely good window representing an even higher AC) which is cause by a higher strength used to project the ball. Of course you shouldn't be throwing balls at windows anytime so now move your allignment towards chaotic evil if you tried the example.
Nom 08-30-07, 12:52 AM	Consider also that a stronger person will swing his weapon faster and with greater force, which will make it harder to block or dodge.And the stronger you are the easier it is to manipulate an item, especially an item moving at speed. D&D Str is not raw weightling ability (though it might be used for that), but your ability to apply your strength.
Shadowhowler 08-30-07, 07:05 PM	I think certain weapons make sense for STR... and certain weapons make sense for DEX... hence that certain weapons can be 'finessed' with the Weapon Finesse Feat. Only thing is... I was using a house rule like this back when I was playing D&D 2.5... and I dislike having to burn a feat to use a weapon in the maner I think it should be used. However, on topic, STR *DOES* makes sense for many, if not most, weapons 'to hit'.
Salla 08-30-07, 08:17 PM	I think certain weapons make sense for STR... and certain weapons make sense for DEX... hence that certain weapons can be 'finessed' with the Weapon Finesse Feat. Only thing is... I was using a house rule like this back when I was playing D&D 2.5... and I dislike having to burn a feat to use a weapon in the maner I think it should be used. However, on topic, STR *DOES* makes sense for many, if not most, weapons 'to hit'. That's the thing ... the finesse weapons *can* be used with finesse, but they don't have to be. F'rexample, let's take the simple dagger. With finesse: Wielded facing 'upwards', taking quick jabs at the opponent, finding gaps in the defenses. Like a martial artist. Without finesse: wielded facing 'downwards', using overhead stabs to just shove the thing into the opponent's body without concern for style. Like any villain in a slasher movie.
Shadowhowler 08-31-07, 09:44 AM	That's the thing ... the finesse weapons *can* be used with finesse, but they don't have to be. F'rexample, let's take the simple dagger. With finesse: Wielded facing 'upwards', taking quick jabs at the opponent, finding gaps in the defenses. Like a martial artist. Without finesse: wielded facing 'downwards', using overhead stabs to just shove the thing into the opponent's body without concern for style. Like any villain in a slasher movie. Makes sense in your discription of a dagger... and when I was using the house rules... daggers, shortswords... those were weapons that could be used either way. However... with weapons like a Rapier or a Whip... then DEX makes a lot of sense and STR does not. However... MOST D&D weapons make plenty of sense for STR... some of them make sense for STR and for DEX, depending on the style employed with the weapon... and some make sense for DEX and not so much for STR... yet I still have a burn a feat to use DEX with those weapons.
Zavia 08-31-07, 10:00 AM	imo most weapons can use str to increse damage. you gotta pierce thru that leather armour with your str, then pull it back out. or do some fancy wrist-work and get it inbetween the folds. strength does equate to more damage generally in almost every weapon. speed x mass = pain
Shadowhowler 08-31-07, 03:11 PM	imo most weapons can use str to increse damage. you gotta pierce thru that leather armour with your str, then pull it back out. or do some fancy wrist-work and get it inbetween the folds. strength does equate to more damage generally in almost every weapon. speed x mass = pain Well, yes... In the D&D system, STR does incress damage. Tho we were talking about the 'to hit' factor, really.
DM Zoc 09-01-07, 01:58 PM	I understand that strength determines the bonus to hit with melee weapons in most situations, and this is justified as additional force making it easier to break through armor. I'm not quite ready to accept that someone with a Strength of 18 and a Dex of 10 strikes significantly faster than someone with a Strength of 10 and a Dex of 18. Why does Strength increase the bonus to hit against a target who has only dodge bonuses to AC, and nothing in the way of natural armor or armor (or even deflection) bonuses? Why does Strength increase the chance to hit with melee touch attacks (such as from a wizard with a Shocking Grasp spell)?
heffroncm 09-01-07, 02:09 PM	Why does Strength increase the bonus to hit against a target who has only dodge bonuses to AC, and nothing in the way of natural armor or armor (or even deflection) bonuses? Why does Strength increase the chance to hit with melee touch attacks (such as from a wizard with a Shocking Grasp spell)? Simplicity of the system and game balance. Having things set up to calculate a few different ways depending on the target's abilities leads to even longer combat rounds. Giving the wizard even more benefit out of Dex (he already gets ranged touch, AC, and initiative out of it) woud be an unneccessary power boost. Really, it comes down to simplicity. Why make things more complicated than they need to be?
Kazuhiro 09-01-07, 05:47 PM	I have a question. Throwing stuff: Str to both attack and damage? Dex for attack, Str for damage? Or Dex for both?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-01-07, 05:54 PM	I understand that strength determines the bonus to hit with melee weapons in most situations, and this is justified as additional force making it easier to break through armor. I'm not quite ready to accept that someone with a Strength of 18 and a Dex of 10 strikes significantly faster than someone with a Strength of 10 and a Dex of 18. Why does Strength increase the bonus to hit against a target who has only dodge bonuses to AC, and nothing in the way of natural armor or armor (or even deflection) bonuses? Why does Strength increase the chance to hit with melee touch attacks (such as from a wizard with a Shocking Grasp spell)? STR makes you move faster. It should be pretty obvious. Just try picking up something heavy and swinging it around. Think Dex is helping you alot? As for melee unarmed touch attacks...I don't know.
Stardust 09-01-07, 06:03 PM	I have a question. Throwing stuff: Str to both attack and damage? Dex for attack, Str for damage? Or Dex for both? Dex to attack and Str to damage. Unless you take the Brutal Throw Feat (Complete Adventurer, I think) and then you can apply Str to attack too.
Shadowhowler 09-03-07, 01:05 PM	For me... if you use STR or DEX to determine your 'to hit' has less to do with what AC is gained from the target and more to do with the weapon involved. A huge, heave axe is going to be more quickly weilded and with grater accuracy by someone very strong. A Lightweight rapier is going to be used with greater accuracy and speed by someone with fine moter skills and stength will play very little part.
heffroncm 09-03-07, 02:35 PM	For me... if you use STR or DEX to determine your 'to hit' has less to do with what AC is gained from the target and more to do with the weapon involved. A huge, heave axe is going to be more quickly weilded and with grater accuracy by someone very strong. A Lightweight rapier is going to be used with greater accuracy and speed by someone with fine moter skills and stength will play very little part. Fighting with a rapier is in large part handled by strength and endurance. The weapon gets heavy in your hand very quickly. The damage and penetration of a Rapier is entirely it's ability to pierce armor. You need to keep your wrist locked, strike HARD and put your whole body into it, as the weapon has little weight of it's own to assist you. No matter how nimble you are, you're going to need raw strength to actually penetrate with a rapier. I'd recomend a fencing class to anyone who thinks otherwise. You can usually get an introductory class at the local Y without spending much.
Shadowhowler 09-03-07, 03:41 PM	Fighting with a rapier is in large part handled by strength and endurance. The weapon gets heavy in your hand very quickly. The damage and penetration of a Rapier is entirely it's ability to pierce armor. You need to keep your wrist locked, strike HARD and put your whole body into it, as the weapon has little weight of it's own to assist you. No matter how nimble you are, you're going to need raw strength to actually penetrate with a rapier. I'd recomend a fencing class to anyone who thinks otherwise. You can usually get an introductory class at the local Y without spending much. I HAVE studied fencing... and I completely dissagree with you on this. Kinda funny eh? I'm a large, thick, strong guy. My father, on the other hand, is very wiry and quick, nimble. He is a MUCH better fencer then I... becuase fencing is MUCH more focused on reflexes and cordnation then raw power.
heffroncm 09-04-07, 12:00 AM	I HAVE studied fencing... and I completely dissagree with you on this. Kinda funny eh? I'm a large, thick, strong guy. My father, on the other hand, is very wiry and quick, nimble. He is a MUCH better fencer then I... becuase fencing is MUCH more focused on reflexes and cordnation then raw power. Sorry, fencing wasn't the best example, but it's the best you can get. In fencing, all you need to do is touch the other guy in a point zone. It's a different story when you're trying to force 6 inches (deadly length) of rapier past chainmail.
Shadowhowler 09-04-07, 02:18 PM	Sorry, fencing wasn't the best example, but it's the best you can get. In fencing, all you need to do is touch the other guy in a point zone. It's a different story when you're trying to force 6 inches (deadly length) of rapier past chainmail. It's possible. As you say, fencing is contact... the D&D equvilent would be only needing to make a touch attack. The actual PRACTICAL use of a rapeir, stabbing deeply to injur someone... obvously I have no experince in this, as it would be highly illigal. :) However, rapeirs are not MENT to peice chainmail and full plate anyway... they were designed as 'gentalmen's Weapons' and a means of settling disputes with lighter or completly unarmoured people. Even in the Renisance period, where rapeirs were in fassion and most 'Gentlemen' carried one... the battlefeild still had heavy weapons more akin to longswords. Still, certain weapons, such as the Rapeir, dagger, whip... they still seem to me as tho DEX would be more of a controling factor in their use then STR. The D&D system DOES reflect this, by allowing such weapons to be used with the Weapon Finesse Feat. I just think they should cut out the middleman, and allow anyone weilding a weapon that CAN be finessed with the feat to be able to do so without the feat. I think the feat is a waste, it burns a resource most characters have little of in the first place in order to use a weapon in a manner I belive you should already be able to use it. My two cents.
heffroncm 09-04-07, 03:14 PM	However, rapeirs are not MENT to peice chainmail and full plate anyway... they were designed as 'gentalmen's Weapons' and a means of settling disputes with lighter or completly unarmoured people. Even in the Renisance period, where rapeirs were in fassion and most 'Gentlemen' carried one... the battlefeild still had heavy weapons more akin to longswords. As you say, a Gentlemen's Weapon. For people that have the lifestyle to practice such fancy-pants swordsmanship which has little use on the actual battlefield. Unless you are contending that your average knight would be able to utilize a Rapier with the same degree of panache and finesse as an aristocrat with time to train in such battlefield-useless tactics. I'm pretty well convinced that the average combatant did not know epee from forte, and would have been relying on the same brute strength tactics that keep them alive on the battlefield. And as such, their hide wouldn't be fit for a waterskin after the first 10 seconds.
StevenO 09-04-07, 07:47 PM	I HAVE studied fencing... and I completely dissagree with you on this. Kinda funny eh? I'm a large, thick, strong guy. My father, on the other hand, is very wiry and quick, nimble. He is a MUCH better fencer then I... becuase fencing is MUCH more focused on reflexes and cordnation then raw power. Maybe your father has the Weapon Finesse Feat? Touch attacks use your Str modifier but can also be finessed if you have the feat. Now back to the rapier questions. If two people pick up weapons the stronger will generally have a better time attacking for damage. The quicker person may avoid some damage (better AC due to Dex Modifier) making them seem better but that doesn't necessarily let them hit for damage as easily.
Sildatorak 09-05-07, 05:03 PM	I consider at least part of the STR to attack bit as being able to power past someone's defenses. The block that would deflect a weak blow may not be sufficient to turn aside a brutal strike.