movement and AoO [Archive] - Wizards Community

movement and AoO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Warric
09-24-07, 10:22 AM I just started playing with a new group of players and a question came up as to how to resolve AoO when moving through threatened squares. The PCs were fighting some creature with 20 reach and Combat Reflexes. As the Druid PCs riding dog charged the creature, the creature made an AoO for each five feet of movement within the creature's threatened area (in other words 4 attacks). Now I'm quite sure this isn't right, but I don't know exactly where it says in the rule books that you only provoke one AoO when moving through a creature's threat area. Anyone know where I can find it?
heffroncm
09-24-07, 11:28 AM You normally only get one Attack of Opportunity per round, unless a feat or ability increases the number of Attacks of Opportunity you can make in a round.

You only get one AoO for movement against a creature per round.

A round is defined as the time between the start of one of your character's turns and the start of your character's next turn.

By example, we'll take a Fighter named Redgar. Redgar goes on Initiative 11. At Initiative 13, his friend Bull Rushes an Orc through Redgar's threatened area. Redgar takes his Attack of Opportunity against the Orc. At initiative 12, it's the Orcs turn. The orc move through three of Redgar's threatened squares to get into position to flank Redgar. Redgar cannot take an Attack of Opportunity against the Orc, because it has not been a round yet. At initiative 10, if the Orc somehow left a square that Redgar threatened, Redgar would get an attack of opportunity because it is a new round for Redgar.

This is compiled from the Combat Reflexes feat, which provides multiple AoO's and which to my knowledge all other multiple AoO abilities referance, and from the Combat chapter in myriad places describing Attacks of Opportunity.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-24-07, 11:42 AM Anyone know where I can find it?

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus. [emphasis added](PHB 137-138)
TwiddleStootch
09-24-07, 12:06 PM The important thing to remember is that you only get 1 AoO against a creature fro each provoking Action they take.
One move action will only provoke once.
One charge will only provoke once.

Its the actions that matter.
heffroncm
09-24-07, 12:17 PM The important thing to remember is that you only get 1 AoO against a creature fro each provoking Action they take.
One move action will only provoke once.
One charge will only provoke once.

Its the actions that matter.

Not quite true. Movement works differently. No matter how many times a character moves, how it happens, who causes it, or what actions are used, you only ever get one Attack of Opportunity against a target for leaving a square you threaten in a round. If you use your move action to run around someone, moving through 3 threatened squares, then use your standard action to run around someone, moving through a pile of threatened squares, you still only suffer one AoO.
Warric
09-24-07, 12:19 PM Thanks guys. I'll point it out to my new group next time. Things were moving along smoothly while playing and we didn't want to muck it up with specific rules research at the time.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-24-07, 12:35 PM Things were moving along smoothly while playing and we didn't want to muck it up with specific rules research at the time.That's generally the best philosophy to take.
Scrooge
09-24-07, 03:53 PM Well I guess you were right :) It still doesn't make sense to me but we still ripped that boneclaw pretty well ;)
TwiddleStootch
09-24-07, 04:14 PM Not quite true. Movement works differently. No matter how many times a character moves, how it happens, who causes it, or what actions are used, you only ever get one Attack of Opportunity against a target for leaving a square you threaten in a round. If you use your move action to run around someone, moving through 3 threatened squares, then use your standard action to run around someone, moving through a pile of threatened squares, you still only suffer one AoO.

My mistake, I was talking from the point of view as a double-move being a single action.
Sorry for being unclear.
heffroncm
09-24-07, 07:41 PM My mistake, I was talking from the point of view as a double-move being a single action.
Sorry for being unclear.

Point I'm making, it doesn't matter if you use one action to move in a round, or six. The enemy only gets one AoO on you.
PantherFern
09-25-07, 11:40 PM Point I'm making, it doesn't matter if you use one action to move in a round, or six. The enemy only gets one AoO on you.

But if that one move goes through threatened squares of more than one enemy, they each get one shot, right?
Jhulae
09-26-07, 12:24 AM But if that one move goes through threatened squares of more than one enemy, they each get one shot, right?

Yes. Each *different* opponent would get a single AoO for someone leaving one of their threatened squares. But, each would only get 1 AoO from movement, whether they had 1 or a dozen AoO attacks available*.

(* There is some dissention as to whether a Hydra gets one AoO for each of its heads or not on a single provoking action, as the text says that each head gets an AoO, but states little else. If it does get one for each head, counting them as separate entities, then moving out of a threatened square of a hydra is extremely hazardous to one's health.)
heffroncm
09-26-07, 12:59 AM Yes. Each *different* opponent would get a single AoO for someone leaving one of their threatened squares. But, each would only get 1 AoO from movement, whether they had 1 or a dozen AoO attacks available*.

(* There is some dissention as to whether a Hydra gets one AoO for each of its heads or not on a single provoking action, as the text says that each head gets an AoO, but states little else. If it does get one for each head, counting them as separate entities, then moving out of a threatened square of a hydra is extremely hazardous to one's health.)

I would imagine that every time a Hydra makes an AoO, it hits with all of it's heads. I infer this because a Hydra can attack with all of it's heads as a standard action.
PantherFern
09-26-07, 01:37 AM I just started playing with a new group of players and a question came up as to how to resolve AoO when moving through threatened squares. The PCs were fighting some creature with 20 reach and Combat Reflexes. As the Druid PCs riding dog charged the creature, the creature made an AoO for each five feet of movement within the creature's threatened area (in other words 4 attacks). Now I'm quite sure this isn't right, but I don't know exactly where it says in the rule books that you only provoke one AoO when moving through a creature's threat area. Anyone know where I can find it?

Okay then, one more question on this then in light of earlier clarifications.

Since the critter has combat reflexes, assuming it's dex bonus is 2 or more, it would be able to AoO the druid and the riding dog (once each) for passing through right?
heffroncm
09-26-07, 09:43 AM Okay then, one more question on this then in light of earlier clarifications.

Since the critter has combat reflexes, assuming it's dex bonus is 2 or more, it would be able to AoO the druid and the riding dog (once each) for passing through right?

Sure can. That's the point with the feat.

To get more ebil, if you need tactical help to challenge the players, you can use a Trip as an AoO, which for a creature with a long Reach can stop the player's from doing much of anything for the turn.
sitting_duck
10-01-07, 02:55 PM Sure can. That's the point with the feat.

To get more ebil, if you need tactical help to challenge the players, you can use a Trip as an AoO, which for a creature with a long Reach can stop the player's from doing much of anything for the turn.

Just to build on the AoO clarification. I was under the impression that an AoO can only be triggerd by two possibities:

1. Move out of a threatened square.
2. Take some specific action within a threatened square.

Is number 1 correct? Can an AoO also be triggered by movement TO a threatened square (excluding the 5 foot step/withdrawal)?
Jhulae
10-01-07, 05:14 PM Just to build on the AoO clarification. I was under the impression that an AoO can only be triggerd by two possibities:

1. Move out of a threatened square.
2. Take some specific action within a threatened square.

Is number 1 correct? Can an AoO also be triggered by movement TO a threatened square (excluding the 5 foot step/withdrawal)?

Nope. AoO is never triggered just by moving *into* a threatened square, otheriwse, you'd get AoOs just about any time you moved more than a 5' step and atacked (without a reach weapon).
heffroncm
10-01-07, 08:25 PM You trigger the AoO for moving out of the square, but an AoO happens *before* the action that triggered it. As such, if someone goes to move out of a square you threaten, and you Trip them, they fall prone and stop moving.
weasel0
10-02-07, 09:40 PM Things were moving along smoothly while playing and we didn't want to muck it up with specific rules research at the time.That's generally the best philosophy to take.

Really? My group usually fights and futses around with the rule books for half an hour whenever a disagreement happens. :D :P

No. Really. We do. :embarrass :weep: I hope to cut this down with the DLing of the SRD onto my laptop for quick rule searching.
Saunab
10-09-07, 02:20 PM My question along those lines then...

Say Regdar charged the bad monster... and then the monster's init came up to fight back. Yet it doesn't have evasion. So the rogue could still sneak attack??

Or does the monster get the AoO for the rogue entering the threatened square?? Which seems, to me, stupid when it's a SNEAK attack, like they know you are coming...
meabolex
10-09-07, 02:55 PM Say Regdar charged the bad monster... and then the monster's init came up to fight back. Yet it doesn't have evasion. So the rogue could still sneak attack??

Or does the monster get the AoO for the rogue entering the threatened square?? Which seems, to me, stupid when it's a SNEAK attack, like they know you are coming...

:confused:
Jhulae
10-09-07, 11:45 PM My question along those lines then...

Say Regdar charged the bad monster... and then the monster's init came up to fight back. Yet it doesn't have evasion. So the rogue could still sneak attack??

Or does the monster get the AoO for the rogue entering the threatened square?? Which seems, to me, stupid when it's a SNEAK attack, like they know you are coming...

Um. Does the monster have reach? This is making lots of assumptions based on the sketchy info provided but: If so, yes, the monster gets an AoO on the rogue when the rogue leaves the threatened square (at 10') to move in to attack (at 5'). If the monster has no reach, no AoO.

If the rogue isn't flanking with Redgar, the rogue won't normally get a 'sneak attack', but that doesn't prevent a reach monster from taking an AoO regardless.
tos_shai_hulud
10-10-07, 12:01 AM My question along those lines then...

Say Regdar charged the bad monster... and then the monster's init came up to fight back. Yet it doesn't have evasion. So the rogue could still sneak attack??

Or does the monster get the AoO for the rogue entering the threatened square?? Which seems, to me, stupid when it's a SNEAK attack, like they know you are coming...

Sneak attack has nothing to do with evasion. Are you thinking of Uncanny Dodge? Once the monster has a chance to go, if he has not noticed the rogue, the rogue can still sneak attack (so long as the monster does not have uncanny dodge). Or, the rogue can move to a flanking position (some exceptions apply, like if the monster is immune to flanking due to Improved Uncanny Dodge or Ubiquitous Vision, or All-around vision, or some variation that provides flanking immunity. Now, movement in open view of a monster is likely to draw its attention, so it would be difficult for a rogue to get up next to the monster.Combat may provide a distraction, allowing the rogue to make stealth checks (hide and move silently) against the monster's spot and listen (at a -5 for being distracted). Of course the DM would be the final judge on that. Since a round is six seconds, I would assume that a monster and a PC engaged in battle would do more than just swing swords and natural attacks at each other. Figured in to the combat is the notion that both the PC and the monster are likely moving around. Because of that, it may very well be that it is impossible to sneak up behind a monster in combat because during the six seconds of battle during which you are sneaking, the monster may well turn a full 360 degrees and spot you in the open. This movement is expected in combat, but cannot be adjudicated in the game, except to say, "Yeah, that is probably what is happening while the two stand there toe to toe on my plastic map."

In other words, if the DM decides that the monster is distracted and cannot see the rogue approaching from behind, then the monster didn't notice. If the DM decided that the animated battle would grant the monster the opportunity to see the rogue sneaking up behind, then voila, the monster spotted him. And if the player really wants to get crafty, he may try to convince the DM that this is an appropriate place to attempt a bluff check to create a distraction with a circumstance bonus from his ally in combat with the monster (since that would constitute a pretty big distraction). Should the rogue's bluff check succeed, then he is allowed hide and move silently checks to avoid the monster's attention. If he fails the check, then the monster does not pay sole attention to the combat and can notice the approaching PC (possibly without spot or listen checks).
Rood_Inverse
10-12-07, 10:42 PM Sure can. That's the point with the feat.

To get more ebil, if you need tactical help to challenge the players, you can use a Trip as an AoO, which for a creature with a long Reach can stop the player's from doing much of anything for the turn.

Wait... Was the druid on the riding dog? Is that still two entities (ie, 2 AoO) moving through threatened squares? OR is a rider and mount treated as one object for purposes of this particular (or any AoO) feat?
PantherFern
10-12-07, 11:07 PM Wait... Was the druid on the riding dog? Is that still two entities (ie, 2 AoO) moving through threatened squares? OR is a rider and mount treated as one object for purposes of this particular (or any AoO) feat?

This is why I asked the question.

I know combat reflexes allows extra AoO as per dex modifier, but I wasn't sure if that applied to a mount/mounted situation.

If I were to make the call in my game, I'd call them separate targets and allow AoO on each but I don't know the "official" ruling.
Jhulae
10-13-07, 01:52 AM This is why I asked the question.

I know combat reflexes allows extra AoO as per dex modifier, but I wasn't sure if that applied to a mount/mounted situation.

If I were to make the call in my game, I'd call them separate targets and allow AoO on each but I don't know the "official" ruling.

I'd actually rule the other way. Only one of the creatures is technically moving (the mount). The rider is being carried. I think of it as similar to why you can't make an AoO on someone who's bull-rushed. However, there is *some* voluntary movement going on.

I'd allow just one AoO, but on either the rider or the mount. It's also the same way our current DM rules it.
Nom
10-13-07, 06:40 AM I think of it as similar to why you can't make an AoO on someone who's bull-rushed.Actually, the PH explicitly rules that both attacker and defender in a bull rush provoke AoOs for movement (if they move). See PH pg 154. Similarly, entering an opponent's square after successfully starting a grapple also provokes an AoO (PH pg 156).
Forgarn
10-17-07, 05:07 PM Actually, the PH explicitly rules that both attacker and defender in a bull rush provoke AoOs for movement (if they move). See PH pg 154. Similarly, entering an opponent's square after successfully starting a grapple also provokes an AoO (PH pg 156).

I don't believe it is the act of moving into the square that triggers the AoO, it is the act that you are starting a grapple (which triggers an AoO unless you have Improved Grapple feat).
Marcus Majarra
10-17-07, 05:24 PM I don't believe it is the act of moving into the square that triggers the AoO, it is the act that you are starting a grapple (which triggers an AoO unless you have Improved Grapple feat).
Nom was correct. AoOs are provoked on two accounts, when grappling:

1. You provoke an AoO from the foe you're trying to grapple when you attempt to initiate the grapple with your unarmed strike.
2. You provoke an AoO from opponents that threaten your starting square (excluding the one you're grappling) for moving into the grappled foe's square, as normal for movement.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Warric 09-24-07, 10:22 AM	I just started playing with a new group of players and a question came up as to how to resolve AoO when moving through threatened squares. The PCs were fighting some creature with 20 reach and Combat Reflexes. As the Druid PCs riding dog charged the creature, the creature made an AoO for each five feet of movement within the creature's threatened area (in other words 4 attacks). Now I'm quite sure this isn't right, but I don't know exactly where it says in the rule books that you only provoke one AoO when moving through a creature's threat area. Anyone know where I can find it?
heffroncm 09-24-07, 11:28 AM	You normally only get one Attack of Opportunity per round, unless a feat or ability increases the number of Attacks of Opportunity you can make in a round. You only get one AoO for movement against a creature per round. A round is defined as the time between the start of one of your character's turns and the start of your character's next turn. By example, we'll take a Fighter named Redgar. Redgar goes on Initiative 11. At Initiative 13, his friend Bull Rushes an Orc through Redgar's threatened area. Redgar takes his Attack of Opportunity against the Orc. At initiative 12, it's the Orcs turn. The orc move through three of Redgar's threatened squares to get into position to flank Redgar. Redgar cannot take an Attack of Opportunity against the Orc, because it has not been a round yet. At initiative 10, if the Orc somehow left a square that Redgar threatened, Redgar would get an attack of opportunity because it is a new round for Redgar. This is compiled from the Combat Reflexes feat, which provides multiple AoO's and which to my knowledge all other multiple AoO abilities referance, and from the Combat chapter in myriad places describing Attacks of Opportunity.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-24-07, 11:42 AM	Anyone know where I can find it? Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus. [emphasis added](PHB 137-138)
TwiddleStootch 09-24-07, 12:06 PM	The important thing to remember is that you only get 1 AoO against a creature fro each provoking Action they take. One move action will only provoke once. One charge will only provoke once. Its the actions that matter.
heffroncm 09-24-07, 12:17 PM	The important thing to remember is that you only get 1 AoO against a creature fro each provoking Action they take. One move action will only provoke once. One charge will only provoke once. Its the actions that matter. Not quite true. Movement works differently. No matter how many times a character moves, how it happens, who causes it, or what actions are used, you only ever get one Attack of Opportunity against a target for leaving a square you threaten in a round. If you use your move action to run around someone, moving through 3 threatened squares, then use your standard action to run around someone, moving through a pile of threatened squares, you still only suffer one AoO.
Warric 09-24-07, 12:19 PM	Thanks guys. I'll point it out to my new group next time. Things were moving along smoothly while playing and we didn't want to muck it up with specific rules research at the time.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-24-07, 12:35 PM	Things were moving along smoothly while playing and we didn't want to muck it up with specific rules research at the time.That's generally the best philosophy to take.
Scrooge 09-24-07, 03:53 PM	Well I guess you were right :) It still doesn't make sense to me but we still ripped that boneclaw pretty well ;)
TwiddleStootch 09-24-07, 04:14 PM	Not quite true. Movement works differently. No matter how many times a character moves, how it happens, who causes it, or what actions are used, you only ever get one Attack of Opportunity against a target for leaving a square you threaten in a round. If you use your move action to run around someone, moving through 3 threatened squares, then use your standard action to run around someone, moving through a pile of threatened squares, you still only suffer one AoO. My mistake, I was talking from the point of view as a double-move being a single action. Sorry for being unclear.
heffroncm 09-24-07, 07:41 PM	My mistake, I was talking from the point of view as a double-move being a single action. Sorry for being unclear. Point I'm making, it doesn't matter if you use one action to move in a round, or six. The enemy only gets one AoO on you.
PantherFern 09-25-07, 11:40 PM	Point I'm making, it doesn't matter if you use one action to move in a round, or six. The enemy only gets one AoO on you. But if that one move goes through threatened squares of more than one enemy, they each get one shot, right?
Jhulae 09-26-07, 12:24 AM	But if that one move goes through threatened squares of more than one enemy, they each get one shot, right? Yes. Each different opponent would get a single AoO for someone leaving one of their threatened squares. But, each would only get 1 AoO from movement, whether they had 1 or a dozen AoO attacks available. ( There is some dissention as to whether a Hydra gets one AoO for each of its heads or not on a single provoking action, as the text says that each head gets an AoO, but states little else. If it does get one for each head, counting them as separate entities, then moving out of a threatened square of a hydra is extremely hazardous to one's health.)
heffroncm 09-26-07, 12:59 AM	Yes. Each different opponent would get a single AoO for someone leaving one of their threatened squares. But, each would only get 1 AoO from movement, whether they had 1 or a dozen AoO attacks available. ( There is some dissention as to whether a Hydra gets one AoO for each of its heads or not on a single provoking action, as the text says that each head gets an AoO, but states little else. If it does get one for each head, counting them as separate entities, then moving out of a threatened square of a hydra is extremely hazardous to one's health.) I would imagine that every time a Hydra makes an AoO, it hits with all of it's heads. I infer this because a Hydra can attack with all of it's heads as a standard action.
PantherFern 09-26-07, 01:37 AM	I just started playing with a new group of players and a question came up as to how to resolve AoO when moving through threatened squares. The PCs were fighting some creature with 20 reach and Combat Reflexes. As the Druid PCs riding dog charged the creature, the creature made an AoO for each five feet of movement within the creature's threatened area (in other words 4 attacks). Now I'm quite sure this isn't right, but I don't know exactly where it says in the rule books that you only provoke one AoO when moving through a creature's threat area. Anyone know where I can find it? Okay then, one more question on this then in light of earlier clarifications. Since the critter has combat reflexes, assuming it's dex bonus is 2 or more, it would be able to AoO the druid and the riding dog (once each) for passing through right?
heffroncm 09-26-07, 09:43 AM	Okay then, one more question on this then in light of earlier clarifications. Since the critter has combat reflexes, assuming it's dex bonus is 2 or more, it would be able to AoO the druid and the riding dog (once each) for passing through right? Sure can. That's the point with the feat. To get more ebil, if you need tactical help to challenge the players, you can use a Trip as an AoO, which for a creature with a long Reach can stop the player's from doing much of anything for the turn.
sitting_duck 10-01-07, 02:55 PM	Sure can. That's the point with the feat. To get more ebil, if you need tactical help to challenge the players, you can use a Trip as an AoO, which for a creature with a long Reach can stop the player's from doing much of anything for the turn. Just to build on the AoO clarification. I was under the impression that an AoO can only be triggerd by two possibities: 1. Move out of a threatened square. 2. Take some specific action within a threatened square. Is number 1 correct? Can an AoO also be triggered by movement TO a threatened square (excluding the 5 foot step/withdrawal)?
Jhulae 10-01-07, 05:14 PM	Just to build on the AoO clarification. I was under the impression that an AoO can only be triggerd by two possibities: 1. Move out of a threatened square. 2. Take some specific action within a threatened square. Is number 1 correct? Can an AoO also be triggered by movement TO a threatened square (excluding the 5 foot step/withdrawal)? Nope. AoO is never triggered just by moving into a threatened square, otheriwse, you'd get AoOs just about any time you moved more than a 5' step and atacked (without a reach weapon).
heffroncm 10-01-07, 08:25 PM	You trigger the AoO for moving out of the square, but an AoO happens before the action that triggered it. As such, if someone goes to move out of a square you threaten, and you Trip them, they fall prone and stop moving.
weasel0 10-02-07, 09:40 PM	Things were moving along smoothly while playing and we didn't want to muck it up with specific rules research at the time.That's generally the best philosophy to take. Really? My group usually fights and futses around with the rule books for half an hour whenever a disagreement happens. :D :P No. Really. We do. :embarrass :weep: I hope to cut this down with the DLing of the SRD onto my laptop for quick rule searching.
Saunab 10-09-07, 02:20 PM	My question along those lines then... Say Regdar charged the bad monster... and then the monster's init came up to fight back. Yet it doesn't have evasion. So the rogue could still sneak attack?? Or does the monster get the AoO for the rogue entering the threatened square?? Which seems, to me, stupid when it's a SNEAK attack, like they know you are coming...
meabolex 10-09-07, 02:55 PM	Say Regdar charged the bad monster... and then the monster's init came up to fight back. Yet it doesn't have evasion. So the rogue could still sneak attack?? Or does the monster get the AoO for the rogue entering the threatened square?? Which seems, to me, stupid when it's a SNEAK attack, like they know you are coming... :confused:
Jhulae 10-09-07, 11:45 PM	My question along those lines then... Say Regdar charged the bad monster... and then the monster's init came up to fight back. Yet it doesn't have evasion. So the rogue could still sneak attack?? Or does the monster get the AoO for the rogue entering the threatened square?? Which seems, to me, stupid when it's a SNEAK attack, like they know you are coming... Um. Does the monster have reach? This is making lots of assumptions based on the sketchy info provided but: If so, yes, the monster gets an AoO on the rogue when the rogue leaves the threatened square (at 10') to move in to attack (at 5'). If the monster has no reach, no AoO. If the rogue isn't flanking with Redgar, the rogue won't normally get a 'sneak attack', but that doesn't prevent a reach monster from taking an AoO regardless.
tos_shai_hulud 10-10-07, 12:01 AM	My question along those lines then... Say Regdar charged the bad monster... and then the monster's init came up to fight back. Yet it doesn't have evasion. So the rogue could still sneak attack?? Or does the monster get the AoO for the rogue entering the threatened square?? Which seems, to me, stupid when it's a SNEAK attack, like they know you are coming... Sneak attack has nothing to do with evasion. Are you thinking of Uncanny Dodge? Once the monster has a chance to go, if he has not noticed the rogue, the rogue can still sneak attack (so long as the monster does not have uncanny dodge). Or, the rogue can move to a flanking position (some exceptions apply, like if the monster is immune to flanking due to Improved Uncanny Dodge or Ubiquitous Vision, or All-around vision, or some variation that provides flanking immunity. Now, movement in open view of a monster is likely to draw its attention, so it would be difficult for a rogue to get up next to the monster.Combat may provide a distraction, allowing the rogue to make stealth checks (hide and move silently) against the monster's spot and listen (at a -5 for being distracted). Of course the DM would be the final judge on that. Since a round is six seconds, I would assume that a monster and a PC engaged in battle would do more than just swing swords and natural attacks at each other. Figured in to the combat is the notion that both the PC and the monster are likely moving around. Because of that, it may very well be that it is impossible to sneak up behind a monster in combat because during the six seconds of battle during which you are sneaking, the monster may well turn a full 360 degrees and spot you in the open. This movement is expected in combat, but cannot be adjudicated in the game, except to say, "Yeah, that is probably what is happening while the two stand there toe to toe on my plastic map." In other words, if the DM decides that the monster is distracted and cannot see the rogue approaching from behind, then the monster didn't notice. If the DM decided that the animated battle would grant the monster the opportunity to see the rogue sneaking up behind, then voila, the monster spotted him. And if the player really wants to get crafty, he may try to convince the DM that this is an appropriate place to attempt a bluff check to create a distraction with a circumstance bonus from his ally in combat with the monster (since that would constitute a pretty big distraction). Should the rogue's bluff check succeed, then he is allowed hide and move silently checks to avoid the monster's attention. If he fails the check, then the monster does not pay sole attention to the combat and can notice the approaching PC (possibly without spot or listen checks).
Rood_Inverse 10-12-07, 10:42 PM	Sure can. That's the point with the feat. To get more ebil, if you need tactical help to challenge the players, you can use a Trip as an AoO, which for a creature with a long Reach can stop the player's from doing much of anything for the turn. Wait... Was the druid on the riding dog? Is that still two entities (ie, 2 AoO) moving through threatened squares? OR is a rider and mount treated as one object for purposes of this particular (or any AoO) feat?
PantherFern 10-12-07, 11:07 PM	Wait... Was the druid on the riding dog? Is that still two entities (ie, 2 AoO) moving through threatened squares? OR is a rider and mount treated as one object for purposes of this particular (or any AoO) feat? This is why I asked the question. I know combat reflexes allows extra AoO as per dex modifier, but I wasn't sure if that applied to a mount/mounted situation. If I were to make the call in my game, I'd call them separate targets and allow AoO on each but I don't know the "official" ruling.
Jhulae 10-13-07, 01:52 AM	This is why I asked the question. I know combat reflexes allows extra AoO as per dex modifier, but I wasn't sure if that applied to a mount/mounted situation. If I were to make the call in my game, I'd call them separate targets and allow AoO on each but I don't know the "official" ruling. I'd actually rule the other way. Only one of the creatures is technically moving (the mount). The rider is being carried. I think of it as similar to why you can't make an AoO on someone who's bull-rushed. However, there is some voluntary movement going on. I'd allow just one AoO, but on either the rider or the mount. It's also the same way our current DM rules it.
Nom 10-13-07, 06:40 AM	I think of it as similar to why you can't make an AoO on someone who's bull-rushed.Actually, the PH explicitly rules that both attacker and defender in a bull rush provoke AoOs for movement (if they move). See PH pg 154. Similarly, entering an opponent's square after successfully starting a grapple also provokes an AoO (PH pg 156).
Forgarn 10-17-07, 05:07 PM	Actually, the PH explicitly rules that both attacker and defender in a bull rush provoke AoOs for movement (if they move). See PH pg 154. Similarly, entering an opponent's square after successfully starting a grapple also provokes an AoO (PH pg 156). I don't believe it is the act of moving into the square that triggers the AoO, it is the act that you are starting a grapple (which triggers an AoO unless you have Improved Grapple feat).
Marcus Majarra 10-17-07, 05:24 PM	I don't believe it is the act of moving into the square that triggers the AoO, it is the act that you are starting a grapple (which triggers an AoO unless you have Improved Grapple feat). Nom was correct. AoOs are provoked on two accounts, when grappling: 1. You provoke an AoO from the foe you're trying to grapple when you attempt to initiate the grapple with your unarmed strike. 2. You provoke an AoO from opponents that threaten your starting square (excluding the one you're grappling) for moving into the grappled foe's square, as normal for movement.