Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tukka 11-04-07, 02:02 PM	Hello everyone. I'm a novice DM who wasn't able to find rules that explicitly cover some of the scenarios that have been cropping up in my games and I was hoping you all could lend me a hand. My main question is regarding movement through enemy-occupied squares. I understand that normally you have to make an Overrun attack or Tumble check (or else be a few size categories smaller than your enemy) to get through such squares, but does this apply if the enemy is flat-footed, grappling or otherwise held immobile? I'd assume not (especially in the case of immobility), but I was wondering how you all handle it. Second, what is the proper way to handle various special attacks against a grappling opponent (or opponents)? For example, if Redgar and an orc are grappling at the edge of a cliff, and an ogre (who wants both Redgar and the orc dead) Bull Rushes the orc (and succeeds), what then? Do they both go over the edge? Is Redgar totally unaffected? Or does Redgar have to win an impromptu opposed grapple check against the orc (who doesn't let go), or else go down with him? Or what if Redgar and the orc are grappling, and Tordek attempts to Trip the orc and succeeds? I assume they are both still grappling, and that the orc is prone on top of that, but that Redgar is still standing. Is Redgar automatically considered to be pinning the orc, in that case? Thanks in advance, your opinion and expertise is appreciated.
Marcus Majarra 11-04-07, 03:42 PM	I'd assume not (especially in the case of immobility), but I was wondering how you all handle it. You'd assume incorrectly, for the most part. You can only move through spaces occupied by helpless creatures normally. This is explained on PHB147. For example, if Redgar and an orc are grappling at the edge of a cliff, and an ogre (who wants both Redgar and the orc dead) Bull Rushes the orc (and succeeds), what then? Do they both go over the edge? Is Redgar totally unaffected? Or does Redgar have to win an impromptu opposed grapple check against the orc (who doesn't let go), or else go down with him? You normally cannot bull rush two opponents at once. Your example isn't very feasable with the RAW. I would rule that the ogre needs to bull rush both opponents at once and beat both their scores sufficiently to push them over the edge. Or what if Redgar and the orc are grappling, and Tordek attempts to Trip the orc and succeeds? I assume they are both still grappling, and that the orc is prone on top of that, but that Redgar is still standing. Is Redgar automatically considered to be pinning the orc, in that case? Your assumptions are correct, although Regdar is by no means pinning the orc. A pinned opponent doesn't necessarily have to be prone, nor is a prone grappled opponent considered pinned.
Tukka 11-04-07, 04:30 PM	You'd assume incorrectly, for the most part. You can only move through spaces occupied by helpless creatures normally. This is explained on PHB147. Ah, thanks, I missed that crucial bit, sandwiched in between the two illustrations. Stupid me. So you don't need to be threatening any squares or have any mobility to prevent movement through squares you occupy, so long as you aren't completely helpless. So in this case, by the book, if your opponent is grappling, prone and/or pinned, you'd still have to make the normal DC 25 Tumble check to get through the square (assuming its the first enemy square being tumbled through), and you'd still have to win a Str check opposed by a Str or [bonus deprived] Dex check against your enemy, with all of the normal consequences for success or failure -- except your opponent gets no AoO against you. Have I got it right? You normally cannot bull rush two opponents at once. Your example isn't very feasable with the RAW. I would rule that the ogre needs to bull rush both opponents at once and beat both their scores sufficiently to push them over the edge. Thanks, that seems like it would be a decent way to handle such a situation if it ever comes up. A pinned opponent doesn't necessarily have to be prone, nor is a prone grappled opponent considered pinned. Ah, that is illuminating. I figured you could be prone/grappling but not pinned, but it didn't occur to me that you could be pinned without being prone, as "pinned" seems to imply you are pinned "against" something, usually a floor, but a wall would also work ... but the game mechanical terminology here doesn't even require that. I guess you can pin someone with nothing more than your body and the space around you. Maybe I'm trying too hard (or not hard enough) to visualize what all of these attacks entail, heh. Anyway, your response is appreciated.
Marcus Majarra 11-04-07, 04:50 PM	So in this case, by the book, if your opponent is grappling, prone and/or pinned, you'd still have to make the normal DC 25 Tumble check to get through the square (assuming its the first enemy square being tumbled through), and you'd still have to win a Str check opposed by a Str or [bonus deprived] Dex check against your enemy, with all of the normal consequences for success or failure -- except your opponent gets no AoO against you. If you're tumbling through squares occupied by grappling creatures, you have to manage at least two Tumble checks (the first at DC 25, and each subsequent one increasing the DC by two), since you're dealing with more than one opponent. Failing even one of the checks prevents you from tumbling through the squares, but since grappling characters do not threaten, you suffer no AoO from them. No Strength or Dexterity check is required to attempt this. Ah, that is illuminating. I figured you could be prone/grappling but not pinned, but the didn't occur to me that you could be pinned without being prone, as "pinned" seems to imply you are pinned "against" something, usually a floor, but a wall would also work ... but the game mechanical terminology here doesn't even require that. I guess you can pin someone with nothing more than your body and the space around you. You can imagine a pin sort of like a bear hug. You're holding your opponent immobile without the need for any hard surfaces.
Tukka 11-04-07, 05:04 PM	If you're tumbling through squares occupied by grappling creatures, you have to manage at least two Tumble checks (the first at DC 25, and each subsequent one increasing the DC by two), since you're dealing with more than one opponent. Failing even one of the checks prevents you from tumbling through the squares, but since grappling characters do not threaten, you suffer no AoO from them. No Strength or Dexterity check is required to attempt this. Right, thanks, I think I've got it now. I meant to mention Overrun as an alternative way of getting through the square in that paragraph -- hence the Str vs. Str/Dex check thing I mentioned, and in that example I was thinking that one of the grapplers as an ally (so only one Tumble check, I assume). Thanks again.
Lilinthra 11-05-07, 06:57 AM	If you're tumbling through squares occupied by grappling creatures, you have to manage at least two Tumble checks (the first at DC 25, and each subsequent one increasing the DC by two), since you're dealing with more than one opponent. Failing even one of the checks prevents you from tumbling through the squares, but since grappling characters do not threaten, you suffer no AoO from them. No Strength or Dexterity check is required to attempt this. Hmm, just confirming, would you still need both Tumble checks if the grapple is between an enemy and an ally? Normally an ally can let you pass through their square, but I'd see a grapple as occupying their activity/focus.
Marcus Majarra 11-05-07, 11:13 AM	Hmm, just confirming, would you still need both Tumble checks if the grapple is between an enemy and an ally? Normally an ally can let you pass through their square, but I'd see a grapple as occupying their activity/focus. You do not need to roll to Tumble through an ally's space, even if that ally is grappling.