multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elwyn_Sylveran
07-30-07, 05:19 PM this is something that no one can seem to agree on in my group. here's the scenario:

say you have one level of fighter, and one level of ranger. now i'm a level 2 character with a base fort save of +4. is that right?

some people in my group believe that you don't add the actual numbers, you just follow the progression. others say it stacks, that's why multiclass penalties exist. who is right?
Einvaldurinn_mikli
07-30-07, 05:20 PM You are. It's a silly rule though, personally I play it like your friends suggest.
nlentz88
07-30-07, 05:29 PM Add the base save bonuses for each class together.

Doesn't get much clearer than that. So yes, your FTR1/RNG1 would have a FORT base save of +4.
Morwen
07-30-07, 05:49 PM some people in my group believe that you don't add the actual numbers, you just follow the progression.

This is an optional rule found in Unearthed Arcana.
Karui_Kage
07-30-07, 06:23 PM As others have said, by Core rules and the SRD, they stack. There is an alternate way to do it in Unearthed Arcana, going by how your friends say.

Personally, I think it's perfectly fine. You can either be a level 3 fighter with 3/1/1, or a level 2 fighter/level 1 ranger with 5/2/0. Sure, you'll be a little bit higher in Fort, but you'll also be a little bit lower in Will. At level 2 though, the benefit is definitely with the split classes (4/2/0) instead of single (3/0/0)
Nom
07-30-07, 06:31 PM some people in my group believe that you don't add the actual numbers, you just follow the progression. others say it stacks, that's why multiclass penalties exist. who is right?Neither. It stacks, but that's not why multiclass penalties exist.

Understanding BAB / BSB (base attack / save bonuses):

There are 3 progressions for BAB: "good" is +1 BAB per level, "average" is +3/4 BAB per level, and "poor" is +1/2 BAB per level. There are two progressions for BSB: "good" is +1/2 per level, "poor" is +1/3 per level. Good BAB progressions get a +2 bonus at 1st level.

Like all bonuses in D&D, these round down. Thus, for levels 1-6 the progressions are:
Level: 1 2 3 4 5 6

Good BAB +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6
Avg BAB +0 +1 +2 +3 +3 +4
Poor BAB +0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3

Good BSB +2 +3 +3 +4 +4 +5
Poor BSB +0 +0 +1 +1 +1 +2When you multiclass, you add the bonuses from various classes together. While you potentially get the "good save bonus" more than once, it is also very likely that your BAB and one or more of your BSB will not be on an even boundary and thus you'll get hit by multiple rounding errors. The net effect is usually that your good saves will be better while poor saves and (non-full) BAB will be poorer. Since it's your poor saves that are your weak spots, this is generally a net loss.

I actually prefer the house / Unearthed Arcana rule that carries all fractions until the end, but only allows the "good save bonus" to be applied once per save. This usually increases BAB and smooths BSB, which is generally to the PC's benefit.

Multiclass XP penalties are indeed a way to discourage random dipping, but save stacking is a very minor part of that. Unfortunately, the XP penalties as implemented only discourage uneven builds not involving PrCs and don't do much to discourage some of the more extreme level dips.
Elwyn_Sylveran
07-30-07, 07:56 PM thank you all for clearing that up!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elwyn_Sylveran 07-30-07, 05:19 PM	this is something that no one can seem to agree on in my group. here's the scenario: say you have one level of fighter, and one level of ranger. now i'm a level 2 character with a base fort save of +4. is that right? some people in my group believe that you don't add the actual numbers, you just follow the progression. others say it stacks, that's why multiclass penalties exist. who is right?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 07-30-07, 05:20 PM	You are. It's a silly rule though, personally I play it like your friends suggest.
nlentz88 07-30-07, 05:29 PM	Add the base save bonuses for each class together. Doesn't get much clearer than that. So yes, your FTR1/RNG1 would have a FORT base save of +4.
Morwen 07-30-07, 05:49 PM	some people in my group believe that you don't add the actual numbers, you just follow the progression. This is an optional rule found in Unearthed Arcana.
Karui_Kage 07-30-07, 06:23 PM	As others have said, by Core rules and the SRD, they stack. There is an alternate way to do it in Unearthed Arcana, going by how your friends say. Personally, I think it's perfectly fine. You can either be a level 3 fighter with 3/1/1, or a level 2 fighter/level 1 ranger with 5/2/0. Sure, you'll be a little bit higher in Fort, but you'll also be a little bit lower in Will. At level 2 though, the benefit is definitely with the split classes (4/2/0) instead of single (3/0/0)
Nom 07-30-07, 06:31 PM	some people in my group believe that you don't add the actual numbers, you just follow the progression. others say it stacks, that's why multiclass penalties exist. who is right?Neither. It stacks, but that's not why multiclass penalties exist. Understanding BAB / BSB (base attack / save bonuses): There are 3 progressions for BAB: "good" is +1 BAB per level, "average" is +3/4 BAB per level, and "poor" is +1/2 BAB per level. There are two progressions for BSB: "good" is +1/2 per level, "poor" is +1/3 per level. Good BAB progressions get a +2 bonus at 1st level. Like all bonuses in D&D, these round down. Thus, for levels 1-6 the progressions are: Level: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Good BAB +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 Avg BAB +0 +1 +2 +3 +3 +4 Poor BAB +0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 Good BSB +2 +3 +3 +4 +4 +5 Poor BSB +0 +0 +1 +1 +1 +2When you multiclass, you add the bonuses from various classes together. While you potentially get the "good save bonus" more than once, it is also very likely that your BAB and one or more of your BSB will not be on an even boundary and thus you'll get hit by multiple rounding errors. The net effect is usually that your good saves will be better while poor saves and (non-full) BAB will be poorer. Since it's your poor saves that are your weak spots, this is generally a net loss. I actually prefer the house / Unearthed Arcana rule that carries all fractions until the end, but only allows the "good save bonus" to be applied once per save. This usually increases BAB and smooths BSB, which is generally to the PC's benefit. Multiclass XP penalties are indeed a way to discourage random dipping, but save stacking is a very minor part of that. Unfortunately, the XP penalties as implemented only discourage uneven builds not involving PrCs and don't do much to discourage some of the more extreme level dips.
Elwyn_Sylveran 07-30-07, 07:56 PM	thank you all for clearing that up!