Native Outsiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Native Outsiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kuronue
04-12-07, 11:49 PM So explain to me this concept of the Outsider type, specifically the Native subtype. I don't remember where I read it in RAW, but it was my understanding that "Outsider" designates a character from another plane, and that on their home plane, they are either not an outsider, or a "native" outsider, depending on the situation. Thus, a humanoid from the material planes going to another plane becomes an outsider?

The problem is that so much of RAW is Material-plane centric. What determines one's, let's say, planar citizenship? A half-fiend is normally a "native outsider", but what if they were born and raised in the Abyss, then taken (hogtied and dragged, in this case) back to the Material Plane (and then subsequently handed over from a frustrated DM to an interested player -- he said, "what are your plans for Ivellio" and my honest reply was, "hadn't thought about it, he was a one-shot NPC", so the player said "since I'm looking to play a second character, mind if I take him on, since he's about the same level as the rest of the party?" and I agreed)

anyway, I'm getting off topic.

So Ivellio the half-fiend was born and raised in the abyss, he's a half-fiend half-elf (which I had intended to mean half elf half demon, but which the player has decided means 1/4 elf, 1/4 human, 1/2 demon). He comes to the Material planes. So far, he's eaten, slept, and breathed like the rest of the party- should he not be doing so? Is he native to the Abyss where he was raised, or to the Material Plane he's never visited but which half of his heritage was from, or both?

More importantly, in my campaign, I've said that native outsiders can become lycans, because I didn't like the idea of tieflings and aasimars being immune to lycanthropy just by having a dollop of extraplanar heritage. If Ivellio is native to the material planes, he's about to become a werehorse; if he's native only to the abyss, he's likewise immune. So it's suddanly become very important to know...

I probably will create further houserules regarding outsiders, since I dislike many arbitrary distinctions and this seems rather arbitrary to me, but I wanted to be sure my understanding of RAW was correct before I re-interpret it.

ETA: I think I'm confusing Outsiders with "extraplanar"... maybe someone can add that into their explanation
tos_shai_hulud
04-13-07, 12:21 AM Here is the native subtype: Native Subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype)

It applies only to creatures that have heritage on the material plane.

Yes, you are thinking about Extraplanar. A humanoid that goes to another plane is considered extraplanar there.
Marcus Majarra
04-13-07, 12:58 AM Actually, outsiders aren't characters or creatures from another plane. They are characters or creatures at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

The native subtype is used to describe outsiders that originate from the Material Plane. The extraplanar subtype is used to describe any creature not currently in its native plane.

Half-fiends almost always have the native subtype due to their other half: normally, outsiders, consisting primarily (if not mostly) of extraplanar essence, are destroyed when killed and cannot be resurrected by normal means. Basically, their essence returns to the plane that spawned them. Half-fiends have a dual nature. Not only are they primarily made of extraplanar essence, but they are also living creatures, as defined by the nature of their other progenitor (a living creature from the Material Plane). The same is true for all other native outsiders, who have fully integrated into living organisms (prime examples include the planetouched, rakshasas, and couatls). Because they are essentially living creatures, they are treated as native to the Material Plane.
Kuronue
04-13-07, 08:27 AM So his being raised in the Abyss doesn't negate that? So Ivellio on the Material Planes would be an Outsider (native extraplanar), or just an Outsider(native)? He kept trying to tell me he'd be immune because he'd never been to the Material Planes before
Edana
04-13-07, 12:21 PM Subtype definition, emphasis mine:
Native Subtype

A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

From the Half-Fiend template:
Size and Type

The creature’s type changes to outsider. Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves. Size is unchanged. Half-fiends are normally native outsiders.

The half-fiend template says that they are 'normally' native outsiders, however 'normally' is not 'always', which means it is possible for a half-fiend that is not a native ousider to exist.

Further, the native subtype is reserved for those outsiders that are actually native to the material plane. The character in question, however, was "born and raised" in the Abyss, which, by all the normal definitions of 'native', makes him a native of the Abyss, not the material plane.

Unfortunately, this means that there is a bit of a contradiction in the native subtype in this case. He has mortal ancestors, which would certainly qualify him for the native subtype. On the other hand, the native subtype also explicitly says it's to be applied to creatures native to the material plane, which this character is clearly not (at least by any conventional definition of native).

Ultimately, I would probably go with the mortal heritage being more important than the location of upbringing for this purpose. Thus, I would say his type should be: Outsider (native)

By definition you can't have both the native and extraplanar subtypes while you're on the material plane. (A native ousider is defined as native to the material plane. Extraplanar is applied to anything not on its native plane.) It would be reasonable to also rule him native to the Abyss, and thus he would have two planes that he wouldn't have the extraplanar subtype on (a sort of planar dual citizenship, so to speak).
tos_shai_hulud
04-13-07, 12:33 PM The only way for a half-fiend to not be a Native Outsider is for both halves to be non-native. If you have a Human Half-Fiend, it is a native outsider, because Humans are native to the Material. If it grows up in the Abyss or on the Material Plane, it is still Native to the Material because half of it came from the Material. Alternatively, if you had a Half-Fiend Coatl, since the Coatl is an Outsider, neither side is Native, and the combined form is not Native. That is what was meant by Half-Fiends are usually native outsiders.
Marcus Majarra
04-13-07, 02:11 PM EDIT: Nevermind.
Kuronue
04-13-07, 05:48 PM Ah! ok, I think I understand now. So he's native to both planes most likely (with the only Abyss benefit being he can't be banished from it, I presume?). So in my campaign he can become a were. Thanks a bunch
Marcus Majarra
04-14-07, 01:12 AM Alternatively, if you had a Half-Fiend Coatl, since the Coatl is an Outsider, neither side is Native, and the combined form is not Native. That is what was meant by Half-Fiends are usually native outsiders.

Actually, the Couatl example is incorrect on account of the Couatl having the native subtype in the first place. A half-fiend xorn would be a more valid example.
tos_shai_hulud
04-14-07, 01:53 AM Actually, the Couatl example is incorrect on account of the Couatl having the native subtype in the first place. A half-fiend xorn would be a more valid example.

Thank you, I wasn't thinking. Coatl was the first outsider that popped into my mind.
Kuronue
04-14-07, 11:09 AM Thank you, I wasn't thinking. Coatl was the first outsider that popped into my mind.

Really? you think of Coatls? I usually use Dopplegangers as my example, but I think they're native too...
Raukolinae
04-14-07, 11:21 AM Arn't doppelgangers humanoid (shapeshifter)? I don't have a book in front of me, so I can't make sure.
Marcus Majarra
04-14-07, 03:28 PM Doppelgangers are monstrous humanoids (and native to the Material Plane by default).
primemover003
04-15-07, 01:55 PM A half fiend human born and raised in the Abyss would be an Outsider (native) when in the Abyss. On the Prime he would be an Outsider (native, extraplanar) and could be banished, dismissed, Holy Worded, and/or Dictumed back to the Abyss.
tos_shai_hulud
04-15-07, 02:12 PM A half fiend human born and raised in the Abyss would be an Outsider (native) when in the Abyss. On the Prime he would be an Outsider (native, extraplanar) and could be banished, dismissed, Holy Worded, and/or Dictumed back to the Abyss.

I don't think this is correct. A half-fiend human born and raised in the Abyss would be an Outsider (native) when in the Abyss and an Outsider (native) when on the material plane. On any other plane, he would be an Outsider (native, extraplanar). As half-human, he is native to the material plane, and thus cannot be banished, regardless of where he grew up. It is not upbringing that determines your home plane, but your type. If two fiends are called to the Prime and mate, producing an offspring, that offspring is not an Outsider (Native). It is just an Outsider. Similarly, if two humans use planar travel to go to the Abyss where they conceive and birth a baby, then raise the baby, that baby is not Native to the Abyss. The child, just as his parents, would have the extraplanar subtype and could be banished back to the material, even though he had never been there.
Kuronue
04-15-07, 07:21 PM Doppelgangers are monstrous humanoids (and native to the Material Plane by default).

Really? My bad, then. I've been running games a long time, but my games focus so heavily on role-playing aspects that I'm a bit lacking on the crunch areas :embarrass
Edana
04-16-07, 10:53 AM A half fiend human born and raised in the Abyss would be an Outsider (native) when in the Abyss. On the Prime he would be an Outsider (native, extraplanar) and could be banished, dismissed, Holy Worded, and/or Dictumed back to the Abyss.

I agree with tos_shai_hulud on this one. The native subtype is clearly defined as the creature being native to the prime material. The extraplanar subtype only applies when a creature isn't on its native plane. Thus, the native and extraplanar subtypes are mutually exclusive when you're on the prime.

---

A more entertaining thing to think about is a fiendish (not half-fiend) human as the base creature for a half-fiend. The fiendish template doesn't change type or subtype, but it does change the creature's "native" plane. So a fiendish human is a Humanoid (human), but gains the extraplanar subtype on the Prime. This would make a Half-fiend fiendish human a straight Outsider, despite having a mortal heritage.
primemover003
04-16-07, 06:32 PM Native Subtype
A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
All the Native subtype should mean is that the being has some mortal parent or connection to the Prime and can be raised or resurrected. It doesn't literally mean they are native to the Prime. The third sentance in the subtype is a really bad addition to it (it should be called Planetouched subtype). The designers wrote that with the idea that the Prime Material is the focus of all campaigns... as noted in the Extraplanar subtype. Any of us who run Planar campaigns know that there are mortal races that have lived for generations on the Outer and Inner planes. The plane you're born on determines when the extraplanar subtype applies to you.
Extraplanar Subtype
A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuronue 04-12-07, 11:49 PM	So explain to me this concept of the Outsider type, specifically the Native subtype. I don't remember where I read it in RAW, but it was my understanding that "Outsider" designates a character from another plane, and that on their home plane, they are either not an outsider, or a "native" outsider, depending on the situation. Thus, a humanoid from the material planes going to another plane becomes an outsider? The problem is that so much of RAW is Material-plane centric. What determines one's, let's say, planar citizenship? A half-fiend is normally a "native outsider", but what if they were born and raised in the Abyss, then taken (hogtied and dragged, in this case) back to the Material Plane (and then subsequently handed over from a frustrated DM to an interested player -- he said, "what are your plans for Ivellio" and my honest reply was, "hadn't thought about it, he was a one-shot NPC", so the player said "since I'm looking to play a second character, mind if I take him on, since he's about the same level as the rest of the party?" and I agreed) anyway, I'm getting off topic. So Ivellio the half-fiend was born and raised in the abyss, he's a half-fiend half-elf (which I had intended to mean half elf half demon, but which the player has decided means 1/4 elf, 1/4 human, 1/2 demon). He comes to the Material planes. So far, he's eaten, slept, and breathed like the rest of the party- should he not be doing so? Is he native to the Abyss where he was raised, or to the Material Plane he's never visited but which half of his heritage was from, or both? More importantly, in my campaign, I've said that native outsiders can become lycans, because I didn't like the idea of tieflings and aasimars being immune to lycanthropy just by having a dollop of extraplanar heritage. If Ivellio is native to the material planes, he's about to become a werehorse; if he's native only to the abyss, he's likewise immune. So it's suddanly become very important to know... I probably will create further houserules regarding outsiders, since I dislike many arbitrary distinctions and this seems rather arbitrary to me, but I wanted to be sure my understanding of RAW was correct before I re-interpret it. ETA: I think I'm confusing Outsiders with "extraplanar"... maybe someone can add that into their explanation
tos_shai_hulud 04-13-07, 12:21 AM	Here is the native subtype: Native Subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype) It applies only to creatures that have heritage on the material plane. Yes, you are thinking about Extraplanar. A humanoid that goes to another plane is considered extraplanar there.
Marcus Majarra 04-13-07, 12:58 AM	Actually, outsiders aren't characters or creatures from another plane. They are characters or creatures at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. The native subtype is used to describe outsiders that originate from the Material Plane. The extraplanar subtype is used to describe any creature not currently in its native plane. Half-fiends almost always have the native subtype due to their other half: normally, outsiders, consisting primarily (if not mostly) of extraplanar essence, are destroyed when killed and cannot be resurrected by normal means. Basically, their essence returns to the plane that spawned them. Half-fiends have a dual nature. Not only are they primarily made of extraplanar essence, but they are also living creatures, as defined by the nature of their other progenitor (a living creature from the Material Plane). The same is true for all other native outsiders, who have fully integrated into living organisms (prime examples include the planetouched, rakshasas, and couatls). Because they are essentially living creatures, they are treated as native to the Material Plane.
Kuronue 04-13-07, 08:27 AM	So his being raised in the Abyss doesn't negate that? So Ivellio on the Material Planes would be an Outsider (native extraplanar), or just an Outsider(native)? He kept trying to tell me he'd be immune because he'd never been to the Material Planes before
Edana 04-13-07, 12:21 PM	Subtype definition, emphasis mine: Native Subtype A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep. From the Half-Fiend template: Size and Type The creature’s type changes to outsider. Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves. Size is unchanged. Half-fiends are normally native outsiders. The half-fiend template says that they are 'normally' native outsiders, however 'normally' is not 'always', which means it is possible for a half-fiend that is not a native ousider to exist. Further, the native subtype is reserved for those outsiders that are actually native to the material plane. The character in question, however, was "born and raised" in the Abyss, which, by all the normal definitions of 'native', makes him a native of the Abyss, not the material plane. Unfortunately, this means that there is a bit of a contradiction in the native subtype in this case. He has mortal ancestors, which would certainly qualify him for the native subtype. On the other hand, the native subtype also explicitly says it's to be applied to creatures native to the material plane, which this character is clearly not (at least by any conventional definition of native). Ultimately, I would probably go with the mortal heritage being more important than the location of upbringing for this purpose. Thus, I would say his type should be: Outsider (native) By definition you can't have both the native and extraplanar subtypes while you're on the material plane. (A native ousider is defined as native to the material plane. Extraplanar is applied to anything not on its native plane.) It would be reasonable to also rule him native to the Abyss, and thus he would have two planes that he wouldn't have the extraplanar subtype on (a sort of planar dual citizenship, so to speak).
tos_shai_hulud 04-13-07, 12:33 PM	The only way for a half-fiend to not be a Native Outsider is for both halves to be non-native. If you have a Human Half-Fiend, it is a native outsider, because Humans are native to the Material. If it grows up in the Abyss or on the Material Plane, it is still Native to the Material because half of it came from the Material. Alternatively, if you had a Half-Fiend Coatl, since the Coatl is an Outsider, neither side is Native, and the combined form is not Native. That is what was meant by Half-Fiends are usually native outsiders.
Marcus Majarra 04-13-07, 02:11 PM	EDIT: Nevermind.
Kuronue 04-13-07, 05:48 PM	Ah! ok, I think I understand now. So he's native to both planes most likely (with the only Abyss benefit being he can't be banished from it, I presume?). So in my campaign he can become a were. Thanks a bunch
Marcus Majarra 04-14-07, 01:12 AM	Alternatively, if you had a Half-Fiend Coatl, since the Coatl is an Outsider, neither side is Native, and the combined form is not Native. That is what was meant by Half-Fiends are usually native outsiders. Actually, the Couatl example is incorrect on account of the Couatl having the native subtype in the first place. A half-fiend xorn would be a more valid example.
tos_shai_hulud 04-14-07, 01:53 AM	Actually, the Couatl example is incorrect on account of the Couatl having the native subtype in the first place. A half-fiend xorn would be a more valid example. Thank you, I wasn't thinking. Coatl was the first outsider that popped into my mind.
Kuronue 04-14-07, 11:09 AM	Thank you, I wasn't thinking. Coatl was the first outsider that popped into my mind. Really? you think of Coatls? I usually use Dopplegangers as my example, but I think they're native too...
Raukolinae 04-14-07, 11:21 AM	Arn't doppelgangers humanoid (shapeshifter)? I don't have a book in front of me, so I can't make sure.
Marcus Majarra 04-14-07, 03:28 PM	Doppelgangers are monstrous humanoids (and native to the Material Plane by default).
primemover003 04-15-07, 01:55 PM	A half fiend human born and raised in the Abyss would be an Outsider (native) when in the Abyss. On the Prime he would be an Outsider (native, extraplanar) and could be banished, dismissed, Holy Worded, and/or Dictumed back to the Abyss.
tos_shai_hulud 04-15-07, 02:12 PM	A half fiend human born and raised in the Abyss would be an Outsider (native) when in the Abyss. On the Prime he would be an Outsider (native, extraplanar) and could be banished, dismissed, Holy Worded, and/or Dictumed back to the Abyss. I don't think this is correct. A half-fiend human born and raised in the Abyss would be an Outsider (native) when in the Abyss and an Outsider (native) when on the material plane. On any other plane, he would be an Outsider (native, extraplanar). As half-human, he is native to the material plane, and thus cannot be banished, regardless of where he grew up. It is not upbringing that determines your home plane, but your type. If two fiends are called to the Prime and mate, producing an offspring, that offspring is not an Outsider (Native). It is just an Outsider. Similarly, if two humans use planar travel to go to the Abyss where they conceive and birth a baby, then raise the baby, that baby is not Native to the Abyss. The child, just as his parents, would have the extraplanar subtype and could be banished back to the material, even though he had never been there.
Kuronue 04-15-07, 07:21 PM	Doppelgangers are monstrous humanoids (and native to the Material Plane by default). Really? My bad, then. I've been running games a long time, but my games focus so heavily on role-playing aspects that I'm a bit lacking on the crunch areas :embarrass
Edana 04-16-07, 10:53 AM	A half fiend human born and raised in the Abyss would be an Outsider (native) when in the Abyss. On the Prime he would be an Outsider (native, extraplanar) and could be banished, dismissed, Holy Worded, and/or Dictumed back to the Abyss. I agree with tos_shai_hulud on this one. The native subtype is clearly defined as the creature being native to the prime material. The extraplanar subtype only applies when a creature isn't on its native plane. Thus, the native and extraplanar subtypes are mutually exclusive when you're on the prime. --- A more entertaining thing to think about is a fiendish (not half-fiend) human as the base creature for a half-fiend. The fiendish template doesn't change type or subtype, but it does change the creature's "native" plane. So a fiendish human is a Humanoid (human), but gains the extraplanar subtype on the Prime. This would make a Half-fiend fiendish human a straight Outsider, despite having a mortal heritage.
primemover003 04-16-07, 06:32 PM	Native Subtype A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep. All the Native subtype should mean is that the being has some mortal parent or connection to the Prime and can be raised or resurrected. It doesn't literally mean they are native to the Prime. The third sentance in the subtype is a really bad addition to it (it should be called Planetouched subtype). The designers wrote that with the idea that the Prime Material is the focus of all campaigns... as noted in the Extraplanar subtype. Any of us who run Planar campaigns know that there are mortal races that have lived for generations on the Outer and Inner planes. The plane you're born on determines when the extraplanar subtype applies to you. Extraplanar Subtype A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.