Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PoweredBySoy 01-13-08, 05:29 PM	Hi, friends So a PC of mine is creating a Bugbear character that has contracted lycanthrope, and now I'm a bit confused about what his Natural Armor bonus would be. Knowing like bonuses do not stack, I am reading the following line from the SRD on Lycans: Armor Class The base creature’s natural armor bonus increases by +2 in all forms. In hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s natural armor bonus is equal to the natural armor bonus of the base animal or the base creature, whichever is better. I guess the more I read it, the more confused I get, because I can look at it in two different ways. 1) Lycanthropes get a +2 bonus to Natural Armor. Since the Bugbear already has a +3 and like bonuses don't stack, this would not be applied and the highest value would be used. 2) Lycanthropes are an exception to the stacking rule, and the Natural Armor of the base creature is increased by +2. So now the character would have a Natural Armor bonus of +5. Thoughts?
Colmarr 01-13-08, 06:33 PM	I haven't checked your numbers, but in a general sense the answer is: Lyncanthropy increases your natural armour bonus (ie. your existing bonus gets bigger, even if it's currently +0)rather than giving you another natural armour bonus. It's a subtle but important difference. The bugbear lycanthrope has only one natural armour bonus: +5. There's no stacking issue because there is no stacking. It's the same principle as magical armour. A +1 enhancement on a suit of plate mail raises the suit's armour bonus to +9, rather than you having separate bonuses of +8 and +1.
Wih 01-13-08, 09:07 PM	It says Increased By, not Increased To. Stacking is not a problem. In natural form, his NA would indeed be 5 + Enhancement. In animal form, however, it would be 5 or the NA of the animal in question, whichever was higher.
PoweredBySoy 01-14-08, 01:35 PM	It says Increased By, not Increased To. I know, but that's the only bit of evidence I can find that supports the stacking. While on the other hand I can find countless SRD and Rules Of The Game entries than indicate that Natural Armor bonuses do not stack. And all rules of Alternate Form state that the polymorphing creature loses the Natural Armor bonus of it's base form and takes on that of the creature it is morphing into (as a hybrid lycan, it would use whichever bonus was higher). Like I was saying before, I can read this two different ways, and they both make sense. :(
PoweredBySoy 01-14-08, 01:41 PM	Looking closer at the Werewolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#werewolf) monster entry, it would seem these human and wolf forms are indeed stacking the Natural Armor bonuses - human being +0 and wolf +2. It contradicts all the rules I've been reading, and is seeminly a little overpowered in terms of this Bugbear, but apparently that's the way it is.
Colmarr 01-14-08, 10:49 PM	PoweredBySoy, I addressed that issue. Lycanthrope does not add a natural armour bonus. It increases your existing bonus. You are not trying to stack two separate bonuses. There is only one bonus involved. It just gets bigger. Let me use an analogy: Example 1. The hypothetical kingdom of Willi only allows peasants to own one beast of burden each. Farmer John has a calf that weighs 15kgs. He gets another calf that weighs 15kg. He has now breached the law and loses the second calf (ie. stacking is not allowed and the second "bonus" is lost). Example 2. The hypothetical kingdom of Willi only allows peasants to own one beast of burden each. Farmer John has a calf that weighs 15kgs. He cares for it well and it grows until it weighs 30kg. He has not breached the rule and he gets to keep the calf. Despite the size of the "bonus" - the total weight of John's beasts of burden - being the same in both examples, one violates the rules of stacking and the other doesn't. Troglodytes putting on amulets of natural armour are example 1 (attempting to add two separate bonuses together). The trog only gets the highest of the two bonuses. Lycanthropes are example 2. The base creature's existing NA bonus increases, but there is still only one bonus. The creature gets the new greater NA value. Looking closer at the Werewolf monster entry, it would seem these human and wolf forms are indeed stacking the Natural Armor bonuses - human being +0 and wolf +2. Dealing specifically with werewolves, there is still no stacking involved. Under the rules for creating a lycanthrope, it says "The base creature’s natural armor bonus increases by +2 in all forms." The example werewolf has human as a base creature. Humans have 0 NA. In human form, that NA increases to +2 as per the rules for creating lycanthropes. It has nothing to do with the base animal being a wolf. In wolf form, the base NA is 2 (for being a wolf). It too is raised by 2 because of lycanthropy, giving a total of +4. In hybrid form, the lycanthrope's NA is the same as either the base creature (human 0) or base animal (wolf +2), whichever is higher. In either case, it increases by 2 because of the rule I quoted above. So in hybrid form the NA is +4. None of that is reliant on stacking.
Kas_the_undead 01-14-08, 11:02 PM	it increases your natural armor by +2, not adds but INCREASES so it would be +5 for a bugbear not that hard of a question
PoweredBySoy 01-15-08, 08:03 AM	not that hard of a question Yeah, sorry. I guess I'm just really f*ckin' stupid. I really need to study my DnD more. Or perhaps it's because my mom smoked meth when she was pregnant. What do you think?
Sildatorak 01-15-08, 08:27 PM	Troglodytes putting on amulets of natural armour are example 1 (attempting to add two separate bonuses together). The trog only gets the highest of the two bonuses.An amulet of natural armor actually adds an enhancement bonus to your natural armor. Other than that your post is correct. The template says it increases the natural armor bonus, and that is exactly what it does.
Colmarr 01-15-08, 09:23 PM	:embarrass My bad. Thanks for the pickup.