Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jeffseadot 04-22-07, 08:27 PM	So every DM I've played with has a different way of handling a natural 1 on an attack roll. Some say the weapon is dropped or flung, some say it breaks, some say the defender gets an attack of opportunity, or that the attacker loses all other actions for the round. Some confirm a critical failure with a reflex save, some with a dexterity check, some just with a coin flip. How do you guys handle it?
bobothechimp 04-22-07, 08:30 PM	A miss.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-22-07, 09:17 PM	It's just a miss. As has been pointed out in previous discussions of this subject, having bad things happen on a 1 means that you're more likely to fumble the more skilled you are, since you get more attacks per round.
WolfHati 04-22-07, 09:17 PM	Normally it's a miss. If I feel like rolling lots of dice, then my house rule for critical hits and misses are that a crit 20 or a roll high enough to hit in your critical threat range gives you a reroll with a 20 bonus, and a crit 1 makes you reroll with a 20 point penalty (subsequents 1's and 20's continue this process). If you get more than 20 over what's needed to hit, it's a critical hit, if your modified attack roll is -10 or below (or 20 below what was needed to hit, whichever is lower), bad things happen. For creatures you can hit without the natural 20 rule, the critical hit part is, I believe equivalent, and for those with really high armor class it keeps them from getting hit too much by things that really shouldn't dent 'em. The critical miss part doesn't penalize high BaB people too much.
KillerGM 04-23-07, 03:40 AM	A miss. Yup.
Leilond 04-23-07, 03:43 AM	I like the idea of "bad hit" but I don't like too bad results (weapon break, autowound, weapon fall, autotrip) I use this very easy rule I you roll a natura "1" you moved bad in battle and put yourself in a bad postion: -1 to hit and -1 to AC for 1 round I think that if the "20" give you a plain bonus (you do not roll on a table to see the result of a critical), the same must happen with a natural "1": no tables, a simple and direct result (if you really want it) By the RAW a "1" is only a miss
Inigo Carmine 04-23-07, 10:37 AM	Natural 1 on attack rolls = automatic miss. That is all. Just say no to extra critical miss rules.
olshanski_home 04-23-07, 10:42 AM	Natural 1 on an attack roll is a critical fumble. See my table below for typical "fumble" results. I think critical fumbles add excitement to the game. Some people complain that critical fumbles on an attack roll unfairly penalize two-weapon fighters or high level fighters... but I guess in my opinion thats too bad. The more rolls you make, the more likely you are to fumble. A natural 1 on a skill roll means nothing particular, it could still be successful Critical Fumble Table (D100) 01-10 Automatic Miss 11-20 Your blade slips and your attack misses 21-30 You temporarily are off-balanced and your attack misses 31-40 A speck of dust gets in your eye and you miss 41-50 You get a splinter in your hand and you miss automatically 51-60 You briefly forget your combat training and your attack misses 61-70 You slip on some blood on the floor and your attack misses 71-80 An ally distracts you and your attack misses. 81-90 Your opponent dodges out of the way and you miss. 91-99 Automatic Miss 00 Roll twice on the table above.
Pegasos989 04-23-07, 10:43 AM	I have actually used pretty good critical miss tables but they take some math to make sure you won't a) hurt higher level players more b) hurt two-weapon fighters more c) hurt non-casters (which normally make more attacks than casters) more In addition, the effect needs to be somewhat realistic (so if there is a battle of 1000 men on both sides, first 100 won't stab themselves in first 6 seconds) and preferrably interesting so it contributes something to game and unless you want to change powerlevel a bit, there should become as much good possible outcomes as bad ones... Generally speaking, any fumbletable done with less than two hours of work is a bad idea...
Nom 04-23-07, 10:53 AM	Natural 1 on an attack roll is a critical fumble. See my table below for typical "fumble" results."Huh? Olsh is posting this? What's going on ... ?" (reads a little more) *snort* :D
DraconsNighthawk 04-23-07, 12:03 PM	I have a basic rule, and it works rather well. You roll a 20, its really a 30+mods. You roll a 1, its -10 plus mods. So even if you roll a one, you might still hit if your skilled, however a weakling may never hit a superior foe, or outbluff a thieves guildmaster etc.
tos_shai_hulud 04-23-07, 12:13 PM	Depending on the game, the variant from Unearthed Arcana where a natural one imposes a -20 modifier and you roll again, and a natural 20 gains a +20 modifier and you roll again. This made a lot of sense. There were no automatic failures, and only the first roll counted for critical threats, but even a critical threat might miss against a truly superior armor class.
weasel0 04-23-07, 09:32 PM	Really in RAW the only time a Nat 1 carries any risk is when you Nat 1 a Reflex Saving throw. At this point, a randomly determined item makes a saving throw or is damaged. Having played some more brutal RPGs, I like the Crit fumbles, but I play the rolls in D&D by the rules of D&D.
RellenMarn 04-23-07, 10:24 PM	Wow.... Boy did I have that wrong! Every group I have ever played with plays that when you roll a nat 1 you loose the rest of your attacks and roll a dex check, etc. I usually find this helps the PCs more often than not, I recently had a Bulette about to make six rake attacks upon the party monk roll a nat 1 for example. Interesting, maybe I will drop in future campaigns.
Vharuck 04-23-07, 10:55 PM	Usually I just rule it as a miss, but sometimes I add a little "oopsie-daisy," especially with non-combat characters, for giggles. Like the one time the group was packed into a 10' wide corridor and the 1st level wizard, from the back of the group, rolled a 1 on an attack with his crossbow. I ruled that it misfired and hit the player in front of him for 1 damage. Nothing substantial, but good to reminisce about.
PenderGrass 04-24-07, 03:07 AM	Roll again. :dragon: ****
alangriffith 04-24-07, 08:07 AM	If a player or monster rolls a natural 1, AND there is some complication or chance of things going wrong (i.e. using reach to fight over an ally in melee, flanking a medium creature in melee, shooting into combat without precise shot etc.) I have said person automatically miss and then make another D20 roll. On a 5 or more, nothing happens. On a 1-4, I then have the character roll to hit their ally, against the AC of the character as normal. This makes hitting your ally a possibility, but a very faint one. 'Friendly fire' does happen. Under EXCEPTIONAL circumstances, a character may also be able to natural 1+ roll less than 5 and muck up in some way other than hitting an ally, but this is rare (e.g. when fighting on a slippery surface you might trip, when trying to fight around a door with an axe you might get it stuck in the door). And yes, you can fail in this manner with any spell which involves a roll to hit. Under these rules, multiple attacks do have more chance of fumble, but the chances are so low that it makes little difference in general. Still, the dice gods can be capricious at times...
Westbound 04-25-07, 03:31 AM	At my table, a 1 is a miss. There used to be a time when it was a critical failure, but I argued that it was silly. That meant that there was a 5% chance on every roll that you'd do something "Stooge-like," in honor of the Three Stooges. Once, we were playing in a Forgotten Realms campaign my friend was running, and he was implementing the critical failure rule. The cavalier (we were playing 1st Edition) had found a Vorpal Longsword +3. One day, we were fighting against a group of Yuan-ti when suddenly he rolls a 1 on his combat roll. The DM grins, and rolls percentile dice on a special table we all made. He rolled a 50 on the nose, and that meant that the weapon went for a target nearby the cavalier. There was two Yuan-ti, me playing my very militant cleric, and the dwarven thief behind us. The cavalier rolled for "scatter," and I ended up being the target. He rolled to hit, rolled a critical hit, and decapitated me. It took me seven months to get rid of that rule. It's been for the best.
Mock26 04-25-07, 11:10 PM	In my game the roll of a 1 is always a miss, as well as the possibility of a fumble. If you roll a natural 1 you then roll d100 and add your character level. Most of the chart (like 15-100) is just a miss. Below that you run into such things as being flat footed next round, dropping your weapon, dropping your weapon and becoming flat footed, getting your weapon stuck in something, or possibly even breaking simple things like an axe handle or a bow string (but never a sword or axe blade). So, by the time you get to around 4th level it is impossible to break an axe handle or bow string, at 6th level you will never be caught flatfooted if you drop your weapon, etc. The thing I like about my chart is that there is a chance for a fumble at lower level, but as your progress up in levels and start to add your level to the die roll those chances decrease as your number of attacks actually increases. I would like to stress that at no time is it possible to hit yourself or an ally.
starfire311 04-27-07, 10:15 AM	IMC a nat 1 = a miss now onto this genius Critical Fumble Table (D100) 01-10 Automatic Miss 11-20 Your blade slips and your attack misses 21-30 You temporarily are off-balanced and your attack misses 31-40 A speck of dust gets in your eye and you miss 41-50 You get a splinter in your hand and you miss automatically 51-60 You briefly forget your combat training and your attack misses 61-70 You slip on some blood on the floor and your attack misses 71-80 An ally distracts you and your attack misses. 81-90 Your opponent dodges out of the way and you miss. 91-99 Automatic Miss 00 Roll twice on the table above. I am so stealing this for a game, I will let my group know we will be doing crit fumbles for the game, this should make them wonder about my sanity and really scare them, maybe I will have them roll on this table for every attack that fails to hit.
danzig138 04-27-07, 02:24 PM	IMG, a natural 1 on an attack roll opens you up to attacks of opportunity, assuming the opponents have any available and want to take them, but that's it.
tos_shai_hulud 04-27-07, 02:37 PM	IMG, a natural 1 on an attack roll opens you up to attacks of opportunity, assuming the opponents have any available and want to take them, but that's it. That's not a bad idea. Each player has a limited number of attacks of opportunity each round. Having additional ways to provoke them seems like a good idea to me. I wouldn't mind using that option. It makes feats like Combat Reflexes more worthwhile. It seems pretty self-balancing to me. I think I might try that.
Phrennzy 04-27-07, 04:54 PM	We do the same rule as for a Crit. If you roll a 1, you roll again to confirm the fumble. If this second roll results in a miss, you have fumbled and the opponent gets an AoO. It's a rare enough occurance that the players enjoy it.
Marcus Majarra 04-27-07, 05:25 PM	Still, any system which is based on every roll of 1 on an attack roll resulting in the possibility of a fumble inevitably puts creatures with multiple attacks at a disadvantage over creatures with only one attack. The only way I see of balancing this would be to make it so that only the first attack of the round is subject to a critical failure (as well as the first attack of opportunity of the round). In any case, I find the idea of critical failures to slow down the game pointlessly. Critical failures already exist in the form of opponents scoring critical hits.
PenderGrass 04-27-07, 07:26 PM	Still, any system which is based on every roll of 1 on an attack roll resulting in the possibility of a fumble inevitably puts creatures with multiple attacks at a disadvantage over creatures with only one attack. First, this only makes more sense. For example, a baseball player that gets one "at bat" chance per season will likely fail less than someone that has three "at bats" per game. The more someone does something, the more chance of them to fail at one point or another. Second, statistics are mathematical voodoo as far as I am concerned. In any case, I find the idea of critical failures to slow down the game pointlessly. Unless people playing the game enjoy them. Rolling an attack roll where the worst thing that can happen is you miss is - meh. Not much excitement. Rolling an attack roll where the worst thing that can happen is you missed so badly that you have placed yourself at a small disadvantage is far more risky and exciting. Why do you think that Vegas does so well? It is the risk of losing money or gaining lots of money (i.e., fumble or crit) that draws them. :dragon: ****
allenchan 04-27-07, 10:54 PM	It is just a miss. Anyone saying otherwise needs to meet the hammergun, face to FACE. :evillaugh
Marcus Majarra 04-27-07, 11:12 PM	For example, a baseball player that gets one "at bat" chance per season will likely fail less than someone that has three "at bats" per game. The more someone does something, the more chance of them to fail at one point or another. This is inherently a false conclusion. Failing is mostly a measure of skill. While two players with the same level of skill will fail in similar proportions, this will not be true with players of different skills (hence the adage "practice makes perfect"). In D&D, having more attacks is associated with being more skilled at combat. Here are a few examples of how this is true: 1) Having a high base attack bonus allows you to attack more often. 2) A monk's flurry of blows is a sample of his expertise at fighting with unarmed strikes and selected weapons. The flurry even gets more accurate and allows for another attack as the monk becomes more skilled. 3) Fighting with two weapons effectively requires feats. The more you take, the more attacks you gain. If you start assuming ideas like "the more someone does something, the more chance of them to fail at one point or another," you're completely disregarding any sort of skill that one may have. Your statement is only true for individuals of identical skill. Unless people playing the game enjoy them. This is of no relevance with the flow of the game. Every single die roll slows down gameplay. Whether you enjoy slowing down the game or not doesn't change the fact that it is slowed down. By definition, a combat with fumble resolution will take longer to finish than a combat without fumble resolution, assuming at least one fumble situation exists (since you need time to resolve the fumble). Why do you think that Vegas does so well? This analogy is badly picked, IMHO. Combat situations in D&D aren't about the thrill of chance. They're mainly about survival, and even when they're about sport, we're dealing with a duel of combat skill as opposed to a duel of luck. Games of chance mostly about the thrill of luck and in Vegas, they draw mostly players who have neither the interest or the skill to play a game where the luck factor is lesser, such as poker. I very much doubt any serious poker player will be playing the game for the thrill of luck.
Pegasos989 04-28-07, 02:07 AM	I have thought about adding a fumble chart like this. Once you roll one, reroll the attack to confirm the fumble. If the second roll misses too, roll on the fumble table. In the fumble table (d100) you add your character level and twice your BAB. From 2 to 10 is hitting yourself, 11 to 20 hitting an ally (if adjacent, otherwise yourself), 21 to 30 falling down, 31 to 40 dropping your weapon, 41 to 50 losing the rest of the attacks that round, 51 to 60 you provoke AoO, 61 to 70 you tumble 5 feet to random direction without being subject to AoO, 71 to 80 you are shaken for one round, 81 to 90 you reroll the original attack at -10 penalty, 91+ you reroll the original attack. So, at level one fighter has 17% chance to hit himself or an ally (he adds +1 for characterlevel and +2 for twice the BAB to d100) if he rolls 1 and misses with he confirmation. At level 5, the chance is 5% and level 7 the worst that can happen is falling down, which goes away at 10th level. Then worst that can happen is dropping weapon which goes away at 14th level and so forth. All the time increasing ability to save the situation is a good progression IMO, because by 20th level, fighter adds +60 to his roll, so he has about 80% to actually get to reroll the attack, 70% to do it without penalty. Clerics, rogues, wizards and other less than full BAB classes progress slower in the chart.
PenderGrass 04-28-07, 04:49 AM	This is inherently a false conclusion. Not really. Even the BAB system indicates more attacks doesn't equal better skill throughout the same time frame. This is of no relevance with the flow of the game. Every single die roll slows down gameplay. Whether you enjoy slowing down the game or not doesn't change the fact that it is slowed down. Ahhhh, yes. But, you didn't just say that it slowed the game - you specifically said that it slowed the game "pointlessly." I merely said that it wasn't pointlessly if it brought enjoyment. This analogy is badly picked, IMHO. Combat situations in D&D aren't about the thrill of chance. I've seen more than enough gamers jump up on their chairs screaming victory cries because they were thrilled by a chance blow in a dire situation. Don't talk to me about how 'thrill of chance' has nothing to do with D&D combat. That is just silly talk. You want combat without the thrill of chance? Switch to chess. :dragon: ****
Burgundy Lotus 04-28-07, 07:07 AM	My group uses a system where if you roll a 1 you roll again if that roll would have hit you continue with the remainder of your attacks, if the roll would have been a miss then you lose the remainder of your attacks, if you roll another 1 you break your weapon. It's a system we like and seems to benefit the players more often then hurt them.
Marcus Majarra 04-29-07, 02:34 AM	Even the BAB system indicates more attacks doesn't equal better skill throughout the same time frame. How so? Higher BAB = higher accuracy, meaning a better chance of success. As it is, having a higher BAB means you also get more attacks. The correlation here is that, as you get more accurate, you also get to attack more often. But, you didn't just say that it slowed the game - you specifically said that it slowed the game "pointlessly." I merely said that it wasn't pointlessly if it brought enjoyment. Conceded. If it rocks your boat to slow down the game for any given reason, then by all means do. I've seen more than enough gamers jump up on their chairs screaming victory cries because they were thrilled by a chance blow in a dire situation. Don't talk to me about how 'thrill of chance' has nothing to do with D&D combat. Except that, as a general rule, the "thrill of chance" is mostly interesting when there's a chance of something good happening. In Vegas, I don't think people get thrilled because there's a chance they might lose. They already made the bet and they can't lose more than what they wagered. The thrill comes from the chance to win. D&D already features this kind of thrill by virtue of critical threats/hits, for example. The attacking character already wagered an attack against the opponent. The thrill of chance, at this point, can come from making the hit (if the opponent has a very high AC) and/or scoring a critical hit. In any case, they main reason fumbles for rolling natural ones don't make sense is because skilled combattants suddenly become more prone to fumbling than unskilled combattants, for any given time frame that involves a full attack. How is it logical that an 11th-level fighter fumble 50% more often than a 6th-level (or any other level from 7 through 10) fighter when making a full attack? The most ridiculous part about this is that this happens regardless of the character's actual skill.
Zankue 04-29-07, 02:40 AM	Our party uses something a little different than most. first of all a nat one is -10 on a save or attack. if you role a nat 1 on attack you role again. if it's another 1 you crit hit ur self. Unless that is your bonus for attacks is 10 or above so fighter of lvl 6 w/ BaB 6 and strength 18 could never crit miss. With the rule like this you still have a chance of hitting your self but after enough training it becomes impossible. I personally really like this way it only affects saves and attacks so theres no, you fail ur balance check so bad you pull down an adjacent ally w/ you.
Mage_of_the_Ashes 04-29-07, 02:44 AM	In the group that I'm in a 1 is a 1, which is alot of times a miss, but not always. There's nothing special about a 20 to.
Perseus_Stoned 04-29-07, 02:50 AM	Some people complain that critical fumbles on an attack roll unfairly penalize two-weapon fighters or high level fighters... but I guess in my opinion thats too bad. The more rolls you make, the more likely you are to fumble. I couldn't have put it better myself; if you're a fighter, chances are you're already blundering about already. BTW I think your chart is a little broken though, 1-10 and 91-99 are the same thing??!?!? !?! ?! ? ? ! ?!?!
Aise 04-29-07, 02:51 AM	It matters the situtattion for my group. For any skill check you automatically fail, for init you go last. For melee attack you miss but if you are fatigued or have rolled alot of 1s then you drop your weapon or it may be destroied or is stuck in the wall when you stab at something. With ranged attacks normal its an automatic miss but if your firing into melee combat where your allies are fighting an enemy you hit your ally doing full damage. For saves I usually either double the damage as though the trap, poision or thing rolled a critical. Sometimes I also make it when they fail a skill check with a 1 that they cannot try again either beacuse their character is too deshelved and dosen't want to or if they are crafting something actually hurts themselves. It may not seam "fair" as a DM but I seldom add these for monsters but act as though its a narrow miss, it keeps the tension up, its better that the players think that they aren't 100 times better then the enemy.
pmurray@bigpond.com 04-29-07, 03:22 AM	1 - auto miss. If fail Dex check, then fumble (no more attacks that round).
tos_shai_hulud 04-29-07, 06:06 AM	I couldn't have put it better myself; if you're a fighter, chances are you're already blundering about already. BTW I think your chart is a little broken though, 1-10 and 91-99 are the same thing??!?!? !?! ?! ? ? ! ?!?! You are joking, right? On his chart, 01-100 is the same thing. Every single entry is the same thing.
Tiruvel 04-29-07, 08:21 AM	Some people complain that critical fumbles on an attack roll unfairly penalize two-weapon fighters or high level fighters... but I guess in my opinion thats too bad. The more rolls you make, the more likely you are to fumble. I couldn't have put it better myself; if you're a fighter, chances are you're already blundering about already. Agreed. I am playing a 2-weap-fighting sun elf fighter, and having just reached level 6, I have 3 attacks per round. That means, three possible critical misses... I really don't like it, but I DO like that at the same time I have three possible critical hits each round (full attack). ;) IMO more attacks per round means that you focus less on each attack, thereby increasing the chance of fumbling, opposed to a PC of similar skill, but with only one attack. With only one attack, you need only focus on that particular shot. That said, I'm not a big fan of fumble charts, we use one in our current game and it generally hurts the PCs and makes them feel less heroic. It's a huge difference between missing and missing + stabbing yourself in the process... :P I like this idea though, although I would have the players confirm a critical miss, just like you have to confirm a critical hit: I like the idea of "bad hit" but I don't like too bad results (weapon break, autowound, weapon fall, autotrip) I use this very easy rule I you roll a natura "1" you moved bad in battle and put yourself in a bad postion: -1 to hit and -1 to AC for 1 round I think that if the "20" give you a plain bonus (you do not roll on a table to see the result of a critical), the same must happen with a natural "1": no tables, a simple and direct result (if you really want it)
Millennium 04-29-07, 10:03 AM	You miss. That's punishment enough.
Perseus_Stoned 04-29-07, 02:11 PM	You are joking, right? :rolleyes: Yes.
Marcus Majarra 04-29-07, 07:21 PM	IMO more attacks per round means that you focus less on each attack, thereby increasing the chance of fumbling, opposed to a PC of similar skill, but with only one attack. With only one attack, you need only focus on that particular shot. This is only true in situations where having more attacks actually does have a detrimental effect on your other attacks, such as when fighting with two weapons. When a character's BAB reaches +11, he gets to make a third attack when making a full attack. By your logic, he would be focusing less on his first two attacks at this point, which is hardly true, since they're both more accurate than they were back when the character's BAB was +10 or less. In any case, the logic you're suggesting is already present in the game when you're fighting with two weapons or when a monk performs a flurry. In both cases, you're focusing less on your attacks, and this is evidenced by the attack roll penalty, which makes you more subject to missing (as well as not confirming critical hits).
Tiruvel 04-30-07, 03:23 AM	This is only true in situations where having more attacks actually does have a detrimental effect on your other attacks, such as when fighting with two weapons. When a character's BAB reaches +11, he gets to make a third attack when making a full attack. By your logic, he would be focusing less on his first two attacks at this point, which is hardly true, since they're both more accurate than they were back when the character's BAB was +10 or less. In any case, the logic you're suggesting is already present in the game when you're fighting with two weapons or when a monk performs a flurry. In both cases, you're focusing less on your attacks, and this is evidenced by the attack roll penalty, which makes you more subject to missing (as well as not confirming critical hits). Yeah, yeah. My intention was just to give a possible answer to why more attacks per round would increase the chance of critical misses... :) When I said "focus less on each attack", I meant that he makes three attacks in the same amount of time he earlier made one. Therefore less time to focus on each attack.
olshanski_home 04-30-07, 10:30 AM	Yeah, yeah. My intention was just to give a possible answer to why more attacks per round would increase the chance of critical misses... :) When I said "focus less on each attack", I meant that he makes three attacks in the same amount of time he earlier made one. Therefore less time to focus on each attack. Except according to the PHB, you aren't swinging more times in a round as you go up in level. You are swinging just as often, but your improved combat prowess makes some of the attacks that would have failed at low levels now have a chance of hitting.
lears_fool 04-30-07, 10:46 AM	Except according to the PHB, you aren't swinging more times in a round as you go up in level. You are swinging just as often, but your improved combat prowess makes some of the attacks that would have failed at low levels now have a chance of hitting. Which is why it seems somewhat silly to have those who can 'have a chance of hitting' more often in a round also more likely to fail badly. Skill should not equate to increased liklihood of failure
starfire311 04-30-07, 10:53 AM	Except according to the PHB, you aren't swinging more times in a round as you go up in level. You are swinging just as often, but your improved combat prowess makes some of the attacks that would have failed at low levels now have a chance of hitting. yes, but we know this is clearly false, even if the PHB likes to offer up this explanation, none of the rules support the conclusion, that you are making more attacks than attack rolls.
olshanski_home 04-30-07, 01:35 PM	yes, but we know this is clearly false, even if the PHB likes to offer up this explanation, none of the rules support the conclusion, that you are making more attacks than attack rolls. I'd say the fact that it is a written rule in the PHB would constitute at least one rule supporting that conclusion. Would you like to point out a rule that doesn't support this? (talking about melee attacks here... I think for ranged attacks you actually do get only one shot per round, or more if you are using iterative attacks).
PenderGrass 04-30-07, 02:02 PM	How so? Higher BAB = higher accuracy, meaning a better chance of success. As it is, having a higher BAB means you also get more attacks. The correlation here is that, as you get more accurate, you also get to attack more often. The point is that, sure you may get more attacks, but when your BAB = 6, it means your first attack in the round is equal to a fairly skilled fighter, while your second attack is equal to any first level idiot with a sword. So, even though the BAB increases, using it to make multiple attacks doesn’t mean an equal spread of skill – it means, typically, one highly-skilled attack followed by a progressively inept array of attacks. Except that, as a general rule, the "thrill of chance" is mostly interesting when there's a chance of something good happening. In Vegas, I don't think people get thrilled because there's a chance they might lose. They already made the bet and they can't lose more than what they wagered. The thrill comes from the chance to win. D&D already features this kind of thrill by virtue of critical threats/hits, for example. The attacking character already wagered an attack against the opponent. The thrill of chance, at this point, can come from making the hit (if the opponent has a very high AC) and/or scoring a critical hit. Fumbles, used properly can also add to the stakes – it is the thrill combat being more dangerous than the worst that can happen is merely ”Ah, shucks, you missed.” Enjoyment of gambling is knowing you could lose the money you laid down, you can also break-even and in some situations you walk away with more money. Adding fumbles to D&D combat allows the players to have a spread of possibilities. Anything from an “Ahhhhhh, crud. I totally left myself open!” reaction, to a “Freaking-A, right! you sorry son of a b***h !!! How’s it feel now??” In any case, they main reason fumbles for rolling natural ones don't make sense is because skilled combattants suddenly become more prone to fumbling than unskilled combattants, for any given time frame that involves a full attack. How is it logical that an 11th-level fighter fumble 50% more often than a 6th-level (or any other level from 7 through 10) fighter when making a full attack? The most ridiculous part about this is that this happens regardless of the character's actual skill. As I stated before – I don’t believe in the voodoo mumbo-jumbo math that is called statistics. Beyond that, there are many methods that a person could employ to appease most nay-sayers. Several people have already pointed out many alternative methods that they and their group enjoy. Fumbles are a very valid and enjoyable variant when all parties involved agree to the ground rules. :dragon: ****
darkeness 04-30-07, 02:17 PM	I find it rather ammusing that almost everyone on this thread says 1=miss, no fumbles, no fumble, no fumbles. I wonder how many of these same posters use critical hits? Makes for a double standard don't you think? Over the years I haved played in games that run the guantlet from a 1 is nothing more than a miss to using elaborate crit & fumble charts which included the infamous "instant death" results. So to answer the OP, if the players in my games want to use critical hits, they also use critical fumbles (as do their enemies). If they roll a 1, roll again. If they hit on the second roll (1 is not a failure here) then they do not in fact fumble. If they miss, then they fumble and I have them roll a d100, 20% chance for something really bad (fall down, drop weapon, etc), 60% chance for them to loose their remaining atttacks (if any) and 20% chance for no game effect. (I do like the methods that add the BAB to the d100 roll and will probably add that in). Does it slow down game play? Sure, every roll of the dice does that (including crits!). Does it add to the flavor of the game? You bet it does, especially if the Dm is telling a story and doesn't just say "you fell down, next". D&D is supposed to be a social game of player interaction and storytelling and those odd ball moments when the fighter slips in the goblin brains at his feet and ends up face first in an eviserated goblin's stomach cavity makes for interesting (and gory) combat.
Marcus Majarra 04-30-07, 03:22 PM	I find it rather ammusing that almost everyone on this thread says 1=miss, no fumbles, no fumble, no fumbles. I wonder how many of these same posters use critical hits? Makes for a double standard don't you think? It's not about a double standard. It's about logic. It's logical that a more skilled fighter get a better chance at securing more critical hits as his combat prowess increases. It's not logical that a more skilled fighter be more prone to fumbling as his prowess increases. In order to keep fumbling coherent, you need to make sure that such events do not carry additional penalties to those who are supposed to be good at combat. A good fumble system will not discriminate. Associating fumbles with natural ones is like making those who roll more often fumble more often, when those rolls occur within the same time frame.
starfire311 05-01-07, 09:19 AM	I'd say the fact that it is a written rule in the PHB would constitute at least one rule supporting that conclusion. Would you like to point out a rule that doesn't support this? (talking about melee attacks here... I think for ranged attacks you actually do get only one shot per round, or more if you are using iterative attacks). the most glaring is obviously keeping track of ammo. Another case is when something is applied to your next attack, or your next X attacks, or when it only applies to your 1st attack, such as gaining the bonus for being invisible when you attack. Or any mechanics that "counts" your attacks. Or a mechanic that would allow you to give up 2 attacks to get 1 big attack, could you give up two of those attacks that arent rolled and still make your normal attack rolls. it has become obvious that in DnD, despite any fluff to the contrary, the rules work a lot better when you read it as 1 attack = 1 attack roll.
Wopple 05-01-07, 10:26 AM	It's not about a double standard. It's about logic. It's logical that a more skilled fighter get a better chance at securing more critical hits as his combat prowess increases. It's not logical that a more skilled fighter be more prone to fumbling as his prowess increases. In order to keep fumbling coherent, you need to make sure that such events do not carry additional penalties to those who are supposed to be good at combat. A good fumble system will not discriminate. Associating fumbles with natural ones is like making those who roll more often fumble more often, when those rolls occur within the same time frame. Well let's think about balance. Say you take out ALL this ****. No autohit, automiss, crit, or fumble. That is balanced. Now let's add stuff in one at a time. automiss: This is unbalanced in favor of non-combat classes. Fighters often will come up against people they could hit with a 1. For casters and weaklings, this is a free 5% concealment. For fighters, it is an unneeded thing as most who fight them woulden't hit their ac on a 1. For casters/weaklings attacking it does not matter, as that is usually a miss. autohit: This is also unbalanced against combat classes. Fighters will hit an enemy with a +20 to their attack 99% of the time anyways, but casters and weaklings can now hit alot of people with no skill, 5% lucky shot. So far we have 2 things stacked against fighters. This inbalance currently applies the same to everyone, perhaps even with multi-attackers being slightly less screwed, tho still not on an equal footing. crit: This is fairly balanced. You need to actualy hit them after a crit, so it eliminates the bonus to weaklings. It also is good for fighters because they can train this skill up to include a higher range. I suppose this could be called in favor of fighters, but I would not call it imbalanced, as their primary purpose is fighting. This is right where it should be. So right now we have something still in favor of casters and weaker classes by a little bit. Even if fumble rules WERE balanced, it would be keeping the system against fighters. fumbles: a problem alot of people seem to be having here is equating skill and chance to hit. If I am sparring my sensei, let's say I make 1 attack for every 5 of his. While my one may have a better chance of hitting him, his 5 are not inexpert shots in the dark. He knows some will miss, but doesn't care as maybe he will land 3 to my 1. Also, when he DOES land them, they are still better hits: More precise (higher crit chance), they'll do more damage (higher strength mod + feats and skills associated with damage), etc etc. Now, there are some people here arguing this: If my sensei attacks me 5 times in 6 seconds, he is more likly to falldown and **** up during the course of our fight than I am, because he is doing all these strikes. If anyone cares to watch me spar my sensei, I think you'll see me fall (and get knocked on) my ass quite a few more times than he will (in fact I have never seen him fall or fumble). It is about skill, and that's it. Here is a proposed rule if you just love fumbles: A nat 1 is an automatic fumble for someone nonproficient in a weapon's use (don't have improved unarmed fighting, improvised weapon, nonproficient, etc. Includes 2-wep fighting without the feat) Weapon Specalization makes you immune to fumbles with that weapon and all weapons of the same type, including nonproficient and improvised weapons. For example, spec in club would make you immune with maces, table legs, and exotic bashey things. For all other nat 1 rolls, re-roll and attach highest BAB (Your first iterative attack this round. This would include minuses from TWF, rapid shot, power attack, etc). If this would hit the target, it is just a miss. If it would not, it is a fumble. This means you just drop the weapon. If you roll a 1 on the re-roll, you auto fail, as 1 is a miss. You DO NOT deal damage to yourself EVER. I have fenced for years, and I suck. Alot. I still have yet to manage to hit myself with my foil, however.
Eightbitmage 05-01-07, 10:55 AM	it has become obvious that in DnD, despite any fluff to the contrary, the rules work a lot better when you read it as 1 attack = 1 attack roll. And the fact that the portrayed fights would be incredibly boring is just an added bonus. He charges me and swings once. I swing back once, and then stand there for 5 seconds... thrilling.
Draco_Whitewind 05-02-07, 06:36 AM	Pendergrass, the only real good conclusion given by the lower BaB is that after a very powerful swing, it may be more difficult to get the same effectiveness as the first swing because it is a volley. No offense, but No fighter worth their salt is going to drop their weapon or lose it. You cannot compare swings of a sword to at Bats of a baseball player. While it seems that it is either: Hit, or get out, so much more factors into it. a Natural 1 in a fumble, is like a player losing control of a bat in a swing that hits the umpire or the catcher. maybe ONCE a decade, but someone who spends their entire career holding an object of an exact size and weight, swinging precisely may miss the target depending on the opponent, but that doesn't mean they're going to toss their bat away or hit someone behind them or in front or to the side of them. A natural 1 is a natural 1. It means you're completely off target, not that you're going to lose your weapon. Maybe an overlevelled swing. as for my "fumble list", I'm too working on a chart. That tells you how badly your miss was a miss, or why you missed. Help me out people, I need 100. natural 1 list What happens when you roll a natural 1 that makes you miss so badly? 1: Moe walks by, and tries to catch you in the eyes with his fingers. You stop mid swing to put your hand up to block. 2: The Noid attacks! you're so busy avoiding your weapon completely avoids your foe. 3: You Sneeze, and your helm snaps down and shut. Pretty surprising, if you're not wearing a Helm 4: you are hit with the backsplash from a watermelon smashed by gallagher and his trusty Sledge-o-matic. You stop for a second to shake off the seeds 5: Someone mashes the pause button and you lose your concentration. The Bastard! 6: You stop to wonder how many licks there are to the center of a Tootsie-roll pop. 7: You're so fired up you swing your weapon furiously! Next time take it out of the sheath. 8: The enemy shows you a sad crying kitten. You go "Awww" Instead of "Yarrrr!" and Miss. 9: You pause for the enemy to take off their glasses. You wouldn't hit someobody with glasses on now, would you? 10: Your weapon gets mad and veers off course. you yell at it. If the weapon isn't intelligent, You may have other problems. 11:You said the secret word. Everyone and everything including the walls yells real loud and distracts you. 11a for Extraplanar realms that are wall-less> You discover that there are muther-fuggin snakes on this muther-fuggin plane. You scream and swing like a girl. 12: You swing, and the universe dodges. Fancy that. 13: You swing, and your foe gets you goat. You stop for a second to mourn your lost goat. 14: You enemy sprays themself with Acme-brand weapon repellent. 15: You swing, but get hit in the face with a pie from a clown in a car. 16: You swing, but your opponent roars fiercely and your weapon hides in is sheath. 17: Did everything just taste purple all of a sudden? 18:Your foe tries to lay a finger on your butterfinger. You pull back to stop them. 19: You finally get the meaning of all those songs on the radio. It's so awakening you stop and cry. 20: You forgot to reload. Damn these manually loading...Swords? 21: An elephant tries to charge in your way, but you take away his credit card.
Wopple 05-02-07, 09:46 AM	lol... To be honest that's better than the fumbles here. Here's another idea: If you are 100% in love with your warriors being retards who hold a weapon worse than a 5 year old, make it for everyone else too. Make sure all skill checks fail on a 1. Also, make sure they have to re-check the skill, if that new roll doesn't make the DC, they fail, take all normal penalties for failing, and in addition, fall down in some horrific way. Climbing? You fall all the way down and take 2x fall damage. Picking a lock? Break the lock. Diplomacy? Accidentally just called his mother a ***** and challenged him to a duel. Then use it for casters. Make them roll their spell attack, so take spell save DC -10, and add 1d20 to it. if they roll a 1 on that ****, oooh man! They target themselves or a party member with the spell. Or drop their wand. Or material component, bye bye in the wind! Bring those ideas up to your rogues, bards, wizards and clerics and then see juuuust what reaction you get. Then wonder if you should really be telling your warriors to shutup about it.
Nom 05-02-07, 09:44 PM	*** has become obvious that in DnD, despite any fluff to the contrary, the rules work a lot better when you read it as 1 attack = 1 attack roll.You're confusing "attack" (game mechanic) with "swing of the weapon". One attack does not necessarily equal one swing of the weapon, but it does equal one attack roll.
tos_shai_hulud 05-02-07, 09:47 PM	You're confusing "attack" (game mechanic) with "swing of the weapon". One attack does not necessarily equal one swing of the weapon, but it does equal one attack roll. I believe that was starfire311's point exactly.
ShadowDragon8685 05-02-07, 09:54 PM	So every DM I've played with has a different way of handling a natural 1 on an attack roll. Some say the weapon is dropped or flung, some say it breaks, some say the defender gets an attack of opportunity, or that the attacker loses all other actions for the round. Some confirm a critical failure with a reflex save, some with a dexterity check, some just with a coin flip. How do you guys handle it? I roll on the following table: d100: 1: You get a sudden attack of pacifism, and miss. It passes. 2-10: You miss. 11-20: Your concentration slipped, and you missed. 21-30: You got a quick cramp, and missed. 31-40: You banged your elbow against something, and missed. 41-50: Sweat drips in your eyes, and you miss. 51-60: Your well-aimed attack misses due to sheer, dumb luck. 61-70: You underestimated your enemy, and he dodges. 71-80: Your enemy's loud swearing at you causes you to miss. 81-90: You enemy pleads for his life, and you miss. 91-99: Your enemy curses your lineage vulgarly, and in blind rage, you miss. 100: Roll twice on the above list, ignoring any further rolls of 100.
starfire311 05-02-07, 10:09 PM	You're confusing "attack" (game mechanic) with "swing of the weapon". One attack does not necessarily equal one swing of the weapon, but it does equal one attack roll. if I smite, it gives me a bonus on my next attack, and consequently my next attack roll, otherwise if a round i multiple attacks there is achance that smite would apply to one of these fictitous non-attack roll attacks that the fluff says is happening
Marcus Majarra 05-02-07, 11:35 PM	Here is a proposed rule if you just love fumbles: A nat 1 is an automatic fumble for someone nonproficient in a weapon's use (don't have improved unarmed fighting, improvised weapon, nonproficient, etc. Includes 2-wep fighting without the feat) Weapon Specalization makes you immune to fumbles with that weapon and all weapons of the same type, including nonproficient and improvised weapons. For example, spec in club would make you immune with maces, table legs, and exotic bashey things. For all other nat 1 rolls, re-roll and attach highest BAB (Your first iterative attack this round. This would include minuses from TWF, rapid shot, power attack, etc). If this would hit the target, it is just a miss. If it would not, it is a fumble. This means you just drop the weapon. If you roll a 1 on the re-roll, you auto fail, as 1 is a miss. You DO NOT deal damage to yourself EVER. I have fenced for years, and I suck. Alot. I still have yet to manage to hit myself with my foil, however. There still remains the underlying problem of characters with more attacks being more subject to fumbling. You might assume that the confirmation roll helps balance things out, but you need to keep in mind that any attack roll is a measure of two things: 1) The attacker's ability to attack (represented by the attack roll modifier) 2) The defender's ability to avoid an attack (represented by the defender's AC) The confirmation roll merely establishes that having a high AC can result in turning your opponent's attacks against him, which really isn't what AC represents.
Wopple 05-02-07, 11:40 PM	There still remains the underlying problem of characters with more attacks being more subject to fumbling. You might assume that the confirmation roll helps balance things out, but you need to keep in mind that any attack roll is a measure of two things: 1) The attacker's ability to attack (represented by the attack roll modifier) 2) The defender's ability to avoid an attack (represented by the defender's AC) The confirmation roll merely establishes that having a high AC can result in turning your opponent's attacks against him, which really isn't what AC represents. well spec was my main block for that. people usually use their spec'd weapons more than anything else. To be honest, I don't like any fumble rule anyways, but if someone haaad to have one. Also this ruleing uses your max BAB, not current attack. This actyualy favors melee classes, unlike current bonus rules, which suck because everyone has an attack 1-5 at one time or another.
starfire311 05-03-07, 09:42 AM	ok, how about this for crit fumbles. on a natural 1 you fumble and automatically miss your attack and you must make a BAB check DC 15. If you fail, you provoke an AoO from the target of the attack, if the target does not threaten you then you provoke from a random enemy that threatens you. If you fail by 5 or more, you also drop your weapon in your space. If you are not proficient with the weapon you get a -4 on the BAB check, if you have weapon focus with the weapon you get a +4 on the check. A natural 1 always fails the BAB check, if you have weapon specialization with the weapon, then you do not auto fail the BAB check on a natural 1. So, if you have weapon specialization with the weapon you are using and a BAB of +10 or better you are immune to critical fumbles.
Gemstone 05-03-07, 10:07 AM	I use a fumble table that's basicly this: If you roll a '1', you reroll and add your attack bonus. Depending on what you roll, I make something up. The less you roll, the worse it gets. I don't kill people with it, but it can be ridiculus things such as: "You hit the nearest druids cloak, causing him to vibrate harmlessly for 1 second" "ops, a god pops in to say hello but you stab him in the eye! he goes 'fricking AO! I'm leaving' "
Wopple 05-05-07, 11:13 AM	ok, how about this for crit fumbles. on a natural 1 you fumble and automatically miss your attack and you must make a BAB check DC 15. If you fail, you provoke an AoO from the target of the attack, if the target does not threaten you then you provoke from a random enemy that threatens you. If you fail by 5 or more, you also drop your weapon in your space. If you are not proficient with the weapon you get a -4 on the BAB check, if you have weapon focus with the weapon you get a +4 on the check. A natural 1 always fails the BAB check, if you have weapon specialization with the weapon, then you do not auto fail the BAB check on a natural 1. So, if you have weapon specialization with the weapon you are using and a BAB of +10 or better you are immune to critical fumbles. That still has alot of problems. Sure, spec is better off, but some someone with alot of attacks, there is still a 1 in 400 chance of dropping weapon, For higher level fighters, this will happen once every 60 rounds or so. Which doesn't seem like alot, but in a block of solid fighting (not like you'd see this much, but still) you'd see a warrior drop their weapon once every 6 minutes. Also, remember, iterative attacks. Every fighter will ALWAYS have one attack that is BAB between 1 and 5. Then often you'll subtract from that, 2 for TWF, or 4 if one-handed instead of light, 2 for Rapid shot, etc. Let's assume an average of -2 for that kinds stuff. Even with greater weapon focus, you're just breaking even. That's a BAB of 1 to 5, even in a spec'd weapon where 1 doe snot autofail. without a high str bonus, you're sitting at needing to roll a 10 or more to not drop that, making the chance for your last iterative attack look more like a 2.5% chance of happening, or 1 in 40. How about THIS rule. I like it. You roll a 1, you re-roll for hit. If you hit with confirmation, then it's just a miss. Otherwise, you drop your weapon. You are immune to this if using a weapon you are proficent with or have BAB +5 or greater. This means a 7th level rogue (avg attack bonus) is immune, a 10th level wizard is immune, and a 5th level fighter is immune. If using a non-prof weapon, ah well tough ****. Chances are you're sucking with it anyways. Think about it. Honestly. Go grab some whiffel bats, or padded swords, or hell wrapping paper tubes. Swing it around alot, doing real attacks, not flashey pointless stuff. Then spar with a friend with it for a bit. Keep track of how many times you fumble it, and how many minutes you do this. With most of these rules, you'd have a fumble for sure every 6 minutes, but likly even more than that. As I have said before, I can't recall ever fumbling a weapon, and 99% of the people on this board are less skilled with a sword than even a beginning adventurer in the D&D world. It is just damned hard to randomly drop your sword, and to me makes little sense to have the mechanic at all.
starfire311 05-05-07, 12:25 PM	That still has alot of problems. Sure, spec is better off, but some someone with alot of attacks, there is still a 1 in 400 chance of dropping weapon, For higher level fighters, this will happen once every 60 rounds or so. Which doesn't seem like alot, but in a block of solid fighting (not like you'd see this much, but still) you'd see a warrior drop their weapon once every 6 minutes. you missed something, a high level warrior type, say with a +10 BAB or better and weapon focus would only fail on a nat 1, you would need to fail by 5 or more to drop your weapon, so a high level fighter type would never drop their weapon and would provoke an AoO 1 in 400 attacks, if they got weapon spec, then they would never provoke an AoO either. this makes em wonder, how many attacks you get per combat as a high level fighter, say you get 4 per round, and a combat lasts on average 3-6 rounds, lets say 4.5 rounds, this means 18 attacks per combat so you would fumble 1 in 22 encounters, going form level 10 to 20 there are about 133 encoutners so over the course of those 10 levels you would fumble about 6 times. Now is it really worth adding a rule that would only come into play for an individual character 6 times over 10 levels and for a party that would only happen maybe 40 times over 10 level. yes, my rule would mean a lot more at lower levels, but once you hit level 10 you would be virtually immune, and at level 7 you would be immune to dropping your weapon.
Wopple 05-05-07, 02:47 PM	Ah, sorry. Missed the part about BAB check, not another hit roll at current + to hit. But still, you woulden't be immune to fumbles until level 10 for fighter. Also, thrower with TFW with rapid shot with a speed weapon or haste = 9 attacks a round once they hit 16. :)
endofdreams 05-06-07, 10:23 PM	Our group has long held the idea of comedy in our campaigns through botching rolls. When a natural one is rolled, whoever happens to be DMing will add a humorous anecdote to the story line that berefts the roller with some misfortune. We roll The percentage Dice as Luck Dice and ask for High or Lowand Odd or Even. Two correct guesses and nothing ill happens, though its likely that you will miss your opponent One correct guess and you may drop your weapon, fall prone, inadvertently attack your team, etc. A failed luck is taken on a case by case basis, and is usually hilarious, unexpected, and a terrible turn of events for whatever you were attempting to do. Lady luck be a harsh mistress
Salla 05-07-07, 12:06 AM	For my next game, I think I'll repeal the '1 and 20 autoresult' rules. As is now, a 1 is a miss and that's that. Sometimes, I'll throw in a little comedy with no game effect ('the kobold swings his hammer, whiffs horribly and spins around three times before coming to a stop' or 'the scorching ray bounces off his shield and reflects back, singing a hole in your hat').