Natural spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Natural spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kuronue
05-04-07, 10:59 PM Does a hengeyoukai (from OA) need the feat to cast spells in animal form? Does a natural lycanthrope? Or are they able to do it since they're used to the form?
Salla
05-07-07, 09:05 PM Natural Spell specifically says that it affects characters in Wild Shape, so unless these characters are Druids and changing their form via Wild Shape, Natural Spell does nothing for them. They lack the ability to make gestures or speak incantations or manipulate material components, so they cannot cast spells with those requirements unless they can bypass them (Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials).
goawayugh
05-08-07, 08:26 AM Natural Spell specifically says that it affects characters in Wild Shape, so unless these characters are Druids and changing their form via Wild Shape, Natural Spell does nothing for them. They lack the ability to make gestures or speak incantations or manipulate material components, so they cannot cast spells with those requirements unless they can bypass them (Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials).

Agreed.
Kuronue
05-08-07, 09:56 PM Is there no feat anywhere that lets them spellcast in their alternate form? And, if I houseruled that natural spell would allow those with alternate form to do it as well, would that unbalance things? I have a were-heavy game.
Salla
05-09-07, 12:12 AM Is there no feat anywhere that lets them spellcast in their alternate form? And, if I houseruled that natural spell would allow those with alternate form to do it as well, would that unbalance things? I have a were-heavy game.

I would create a new feat, rather than allowing Natural Spell to suffice, myself. Note that, unless I'm very much mistaken, lycanthropes can cast spells in their hybrid forms.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-09-07, 02:11 AM Lycans and hengeyokai can cast in hybrid mode because they have hands and at least vaguely humanoid mouths. Letting them cast in animal mode is only marginally less of an amazingly bad idea as letting Druids take the actual Natural Spell feat.
Fireclave
05-09-07, 02:36 AM Lycans and hengeyokai can cast in hybrid mode because they have hands and at least vaguely humanoid mouths. Letting them cast in animal mode is only marginally less of an amazingly bad idea as letting Druids take the actual Natural Spell feat.
Actually, a lycanthrope can't cast spells with verbal components in hybrid mode. That's spelled out explicitly in their description.

A lycanthrope’s hybrid form does not gain any special attacks of the base animal. A lycanthrope spellcaster cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components while in animal form, or spells with verbal components while in hybrid form.

Don't know about hengeyokai though. But there is a feat that allows monstrous creatures to replace normal verbal components with grunts, growls, and other animal sounds. You don't need to be able to speak, but you still need to be able to vocalize (read: not gagged, etc). I can't remember what the feat is called at the moment, but I think it is in Savage Species.
Kuronue
05-10-07, 12:19 AM wait, they can't? Why? That seems to imply they can't speak properly in hybrid form, correct? In my campaign they've had conversations with hybrid-form weres, so that makes little sense...

I've never DMd for druids, at least not high enough level for wildshape (I prefer beginning at low levels). Why is it such a horrible idea?
Fireclave
05-10-07, 10:29 AM wait, they can't? Why? That seems to imply they can't speak properly in hybrid form, correct? In my campaign they've had conversations with hybrid-form weres, so that makes little sense...
That seems to be exactly what they imply, though the RAW does not come right out and say whether or not Lycanthropes in wereform can speak or not. It might just mean that having nonhumanoid-shape mouth makes it impossible to use verbal components, but that makes even less sense then not being able to speak at all considering that so many nonhumanoid creatures can cast spells easily.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-10-07, 10:41 AM Another situation where the correct answer is to point and lauch at the RAW.

Either they can talk and can use verbals, or they can't do either. Shell games are only fun if you're scamming marks out of thier money.
Salla
05-10-07, 02:00 PM Another situation where the correct answer is to point and lauch at the RAW.

Either they can talk and can use verbals, or they can't do either. Shell games are only fun if you're scamming marks out of thier money.

Or their speech is very accented with growls, barks and whathaveyou and isn't precise enough for magic words. "Abrrrrrrrrrracadabrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*snarl drool*rra."

Edit: I have no idea what that random space is doing in the line above. It's not there in the editting screen.
foxtail
05-10-07, 02:53 PM Nonverbal Spell from the Planar Handbook can alleviate some of these woes (making grunts and roars valid verbal components).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuronue 05-04-07, 10:59 PM	Does a hengeyoukai (from OA) need the feat to cast spells in animal form? Does a natural lycanthrope? Or are they able to do it since they're used to the form?
Salla 05-07-07, 09:05 PM	Natural Spell specifically says that it affects characters in Wild Shape, so unless these characters are Druids and changing their form via Wild Shape, Natural Spell does nothing for them. They lack the ability to make gestures or speak incantations or manipulate material components, so they cannot cast spells with those requirements unless they can bypass them (Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials).
goawayugh 05-08-07, 08:26 AM	Natural Spell specifically says that it affects characters in Wild Shape, so unless these characters are Druids and changing their form via Wild Shape, Natural Spell does nothing for them. They lack the ability to make gestures or speak incantations or manipulate material components, so they cannot cast spells with those requirements unless they can bypass them (Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials). Agreed.
Kuronue 05-08-07, 09:56 PM	Is there no feat anywhere that lets them spellcast in their alternate form? And, if I houseruled that natural spell would allow those with alternate form to do it as well, would that unbalance things? I have a were-heavy game.
Salla 05-09-07, 12:12 AM	Is there no feat anywhere that lets them spellcast in their alternate form? And, if I houseruled that natural spell would allow those with alternate form to do it as well, would that unbalance things? I have a were-heavy game. I would create a new feat, rather than allowing Natural Spell to suffice, myself. Note that, unless I'm very much mistaken, lycanthropes can cast spells in their hybrid forms.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-09-07, 02:11 AM	Lycans and hengeyokai can cast in hybrid mode because they have hands and at least vaguely humanoid mouths. Letting them cast in animal mode is only marginally less of an amazingly bad idea as letting Druids take the actual Natural Spell feat.
Fireclave 05-09-07, 02:36 AM	Lycans and hengeyokai can cast in hybrid mode because they have hands and at least vaguely humanoid mouths. Letting them cast in animal mode is only marginally less of an amazingly bad idea as letting Druids take the actual Natural Spell feat. Actually, a lycanthrope can't cast spells with verbal components in hybrid mode. That's spelled out explicitly in their description. A lycanthrope’s hybrid form does not gain any special attacks of the base animal. A lycanthrope spellcaster cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components while in animal form, or spells with verbal components while in hybrid form. Don't know about hengeyokai though. But there is a feat that allows monstrous creatures to replace normal verbal components with grunts, growls, and other animal sounds. You don't need to be able to speak, but you still need to be able to vocalize (read: not gagged, etc). I can't remember what the feat is called at the moment, but I think it is in Savage Species.
Kuronue 05-10-07, 12:19 AM	wait, they can't? Why? That seems to imply they can't speak properly in hybrid form, correct? In my campaign they've had conversations with hybrid-form weres, so that makes little sense... I've never DMd for druids, at least not high enough level for wildshape (I prefer beginning at low levels). Why is it such a horrible idea?
Fireclave 05-10-07, 10:29 AM	wait, they can't? Why? That seems to imply they can't speak properly in hybrid form, correct? In my campaign they've had conversations with hybrid-form weres, so that makes little sense... That seems to be exactly what they imply, though the RAW does not come right out and say whether or not Lycanthropes in wereform can speak or not. It might just mean that having nonhumanoid-shape mouth makes it impossible to use verbal components, but that makes even less sense then not being able to speak at all considering that so many nonhumanoid creatures can cast spells easily.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-10-07, 10:41 AM	Another situation where the correct answer is to point and lauch at the RAW. Either they can talk and can use verbals, or they can't do either. Shell games are only fun if you're scamming marks out of thier money.
Salla 05-10-07, 02:00 PM	Another situation where the correct answer is to point and lauch at the RAW. Either they can talk and can use verbals, or they can't do either. Shell games are only fun if you're scamming marks out of thier money. Or their speech is very accented with growls, barks and whathaveyou and isn't precise enough for magic words. "Abrrrrrrrrrracadabrrrrrrrrrrrrrrsnarl droolrra." Edit: I have no idea what that random space is doing in the line above. It's not there in the editting screen.
foxtail 05-10-07, 02:53 PM	Nonverbal Spell from the Planar Handbook can alleviate some of these woes (making grunts and roars valid verbal components).