Negative levels + loosing HP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Negative levels + loosing HP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Glaucous
12-06-07, 08:33 AM Hi, during our last game session where I was the DM, one of my players came up with the following statement:

when you get one negative level due to a monsters level draining ability, only you maximum HP total goes down by 5 HP, and that you don't loose those 5 HP from your current HP? because this would mean that you are penalized two times.

Until now I thought that for every negative level your maximum HP would go down 5 HP and that with the same attack you current Hitpoints are also reduced by the same amount (-5 HP).

Now which of the two statements are correct, I'checked the SRD where it states :
[I]A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

* -1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
* -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
* -5 hit points.
* -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
* If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Thank you for possible answers;)
Merestil Haye
12-06-07, 09:22 AM Nothing in the text of negative levels say that they reduce maximum hit points. So they don't.

The negative level reduces your current hitpoint total by 5 (on top of any loss from the damage). This can be regained by healing in the normal way, back to your full normal hp total, even before the negative level is removed.
Finarin Panjoro
12-06-07, 12:19 PM I'm not sure that's correct Merestil Haye. That would make the -5 hit points the only temporary penalty on that list. The text of energy drain seems to imply that the penalties persist as long as the character possesses the negative level.

Glaucous, why does your player think he shouldn't be penalized twice? Is there some rule that you can't be? I think you lose 5 hp from current hp and max hp personally. That's how I've always played it.
Lilinthra
12-06-07, 12:37 PM I'm not sure that's correct Merestil Haye. That would make the -5 hit points the only temporary penalty on that list. The text of energy drain seems to imply that the penalties persist as long as the character possesses the negative level.
Most creatures that have energy drain gain 5 temporary hit points when they successfully deal a negative level.

There are enough corner cases and exceptions that it's hard to judge RAI for this, at least in my opinion. I just rule that the effected creature loses 5 HPs from their current HP, not the max HP.
Merestil Haye
12-06-07, 12:48 PM I'm not sure that's correct Merestil Haye. That would make the -5 hit points the only temporary penalty on that list. The text of energy drain seems to imply that the penalties persist as long as the character possesses the negative level.That's the nature of damage.

If you can show me where the text explicitly says it affects maximum hit points, I will accept that you are right.
Tedronai
12-06-07, 05:57 PM That's the nature of damage.

If you can show me where the text explicitly says it affects maximum hit points, I will accept that you are right.

Technically, it doesn't affect maximum HPs in any direct way. However, the fact that the reduction is a PENALTY, and not damage, means that normal healing methods will have no effect on it.
In essence, the victim's CURRENT HPs, will always be (at least) 5 lower than their maximum HP for each negative level they are subject to, until those negative levels are removed. Any Damage the victim sustains, or has already sustained, will be in addition to that.
PenderGrass
12-06-07, 07:53 PM The -5 hit points is a penalty and cannot be erased with your standard cure light wounds.

:dragon:
*****
Phrennzy
12-06-07, 09:00 PM The -5 hit points is a penalty and cannot be erased with your standard cure light wounds.

:dragon:
*****

Agree
Glaucous
12-07-07, 02:32 AM Thank all of you for your quick answers.

I missed that negative levels impose a penalty of 5 HP, so that technically your maximimum and current HP go down.:D

My player will not be amused:D
PenderGrass
12-07-07, 02:43 AM Thank all of you for your quick answers.

I missed that negative levels impose a penalty of 5 HP, so that technically your maximimum and current HP go down.:D

My player will not be amused:D
Optionally, I make sure we always keep a copy of every level of the PCs because of level drains.

It keeps it far simpler if they are ever drained of levels.

:dragon:
*****
Glaucous
12-10-07, 02:59 AM Just another point in this issue:

Am I right to assume, that as soon as you remove the negative levels you also regain the previously lost HP (as the penalty is removed) and that you don't need to cure the HP lost separately by cure spells?
;)
Tedronai
12-10-07, 07:51 AM Just another point in this issue:

Am I right to assume, that as soon as you remove the negative levels you also regain the previously lost HP (as the penalty is removed) and that you don't need to cure the HP lost separately by cure spells?
;)

True, removing the negative levels removes the penalties, including the HPs
Kheldren
12-11-07, 04:29 PM A good way to look at this (and also for Con Drain/Damage) is not to keep track of current hit points, but to keep track of damage taken!

Suppose you have 100 hit points at 10 Hit Dice. If you take 20 points of damage most people would say you now have 80 hit points. If you then take 4 con damage, you lose 20hp - and are now on 60 out of 80 hp.

Now to work it the other way from 100hp you take 20 damage. You are on 20 hp taken out of 100 hp (i.e. 80 left).
Next you take the 4 Con damage and lose 20hp form max - now you are on 20 hp taken out of 80 - 60 left still, but only needing to change one figure.
A negative level would put you on 20 out of 75 and so on.
When the Con damage/negative levels are removed you can just update your total hit points.
When healed you just update damage taken.

This method also shows people why Con damage affects current hit points as well as total for those who have a problem grasping it.
the_rooster
12-13-07, 11:59 AM Alternately, you could avoid level loss altogether (which is what we do). We've found the rules clunky and requiring far too much bookeeping to be fun. It really feels like one of those mechanics kept for nostalgia and not because it's any good.

Instead, we've subbed in a -2 penalty to all stats for each level drained. It simulates the idea of life energy being drained and is much quicker. The following day, they save per -2 as normal, and anything that would rstore a level will restore the -2 to everything.

Just in case you're interested.
Lord_Varos
12-15-07, 08:31 PM A good way to look at this (and also for Con Drain/Damage) is not to keep track of current hit points, but to keep track of damage taken!
I concur.
There is no such thing as current HP. There are only Hit Points and Wounds. A 1st level Fighter with +2 Con has 12 HP. If he takes five points of damage, he still has 12 HP (rather than 7). He just has 5 points of wounds dealt. When [HP - wounds] is equal to 0, he is Disabled.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Glaucous 12-06-07, 08:33 AM	Hi, during our last game session where I was the DM, one of my players came up with the following statement: when you get one negative level due to a monsters level draining ability, only you maximum HP total goes down by 5 HP, and that you don't loose those 5 HP from your current HP? because this would mean that you are penalized two times. Until now I thought that for every negative level your maximum HP would go down 5 HP and that with the same attack you current Hitpoints are also reduced by the same amount (-5 HP). Now which of the two statements are correct, I'checked the SRD where it states : [I]A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained: * -1 on all skill checks and ability checks. * -1 on attack rolls and saving throws. * -5 hit points. * -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level). * If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level. Thank you for possible answers;)
Merestil Haye 12-06-07, 09:22 AM	Nothing in the text of negative levels say that they reduce maximum hit points. So they don't. The negative level reduces your current hitpoint total by 5 (on top of any loss from the damage). This can be regained by healing in the normal way, back to your full normal hp total, even before the negative level is removed.
Finarin Panjoro 12-06-07, 12:19 PM	I'm not sure that's correct Merestil Haye. That would make the -5 hit points the only temporary penalty on that list. The text of energy drain seems to imply that the penalties persist as long as the character possesses the negative level. Glaucous, why does your player think he shouldn't be penalized twice? Is there some rule that you can't be? I think you lose 5 hp from current hp and max hp personally. That's how I've always played it.
Lilinthra 12-06-07, 12:37 PM	I'm not sure that's correct Merestil Haye. That would make the -5 hit points the only temporary penalty on that list. The text of energy drain seems to imply that the penalties persist as long as the character possesses the negative level. Most creatures that have energy drain gain 5 temporary hit points when they successfully deal a negative level. There are enough corner cases and exceptions that it's hard to judge RAI for this, at least in my opinion. I just rule that the effected creature loses 5 HPs from their current HP, not the max HP.
Merestil Haye 12-06-07, 12:48 PM	I'm not sure that's correct Merestil Haye. That would make the -5 hit points the only temporary penalty on that list. The text of energy drain seems to imply that the penalties persist as long as the character possesses the negative level.That's the nature of damage. If you can show me where the text explicitly says it affects maximum hit points, I will accept that you are right.
Tedronai 12-06-07, 05:57 PM	That's the nature of damage. If you can show me where the text explicitly says it affects maximum hit points, I will accept that you are right. Technically, it doesn't affect maximum HPs in any direct way. However, the fact that the reduction is a PENALTY, and not damage, means that normal healing methods will have no effect on it. In essence, the victim's CURRENT HPs, will always be (at least) 5 lower than their maximum HP for each negative level they are subject to, until those negative levels are removed. Any Damage the victim sustains, or has already sustained, will be in addition to that.
PenderGrass 12-06-07, 07:53 PM	The -5 hit points is a penalty and cannot be erased with your standard cure light wounds. :dragon: *****
Phrennzy 12-06-07, 09:00 PM	The -5 hit points is a penalty and cannot be erased with your standard cure light wounds. :dragon: ***** Agree
Glaucous 12-07-07, 02:32 AM	Thank all of you for your quick answers. I missed that negative levels impose a penalty of 5 HP, so that technically your maximimum and current HP go down.:D My player will not be amused:D
PenderGrass 12-07-07, 02:43 AM	Thank all of you for your quick answers. I missed that negative levels impose a penalty of 5 HP, so that technically your maximimum and current HP go down.:D My player will not be amused:D Optionally, I make sure we always keep a copy of every level of the PCs because of level drains. It keeps it far simpler if they are ever drained of levels. :dragon: *****
Glaucous 12-10-07, 02:59 AM	Just another point in this issue: Am I right to assume, that as soon as you remove the negative levels you also regain the previously lost HP (as the penalty is removed) and that you don't need to cure the HP lost separately by cure spells? ;)
Tedronai 12-10-07, 07:51 AM	Just another point in this issue: Am I right to assume, that as soon as you remove the negative levels you also regain the previously lost HP (as the penalty is removed) and that you don't need to cure the HP lost separately by cure spells? ;) True, removing the negative levels removes the penalties, including the HPs
Kheldren 12-11-07, 04:29 PM	A good way to look at this (and also for Con Drain/Damage) is not to keep track of current hit points, but to keep track of damage taken! Suppose you have 100 hit points at 10 Hit Dice. If you take 20 points of damage most people would say you now have 80 hit points. If you then take 4 con damage, you lose 20hp - and are now on 60 out of 80 hp. Now to work it the other way from 100hp you take 20 damage. You are on 20 hp taken out of 100 hp (i.e. 80 left). Next you take the 4 Con damage and lose 20hp form max - now you are on 20 hp taken out of 80 - 60 left still, but only needing to change one figure. A negative level would put you on 20 out of 75 and so on. When the Con damage/negative levels are removed you can just update your total hit points. When healed you just update damage taken. This method also shows people why Con damage affects current hit points as well as total for those who have a problem grasping it.
the_rooster 12-13-07, 11:59 AM	Alternately, you could avoid level loss altogether (which is what we do). We've found the rules clunky and requiring far too much bookeeping to be fun. It really feels like one of those mechanics kept for nostalgia and not because it's any good. Instead, we've subbed in a -2 penalty to all stats for each level drained. It simulates the idea of life energy being drained and is much quicker. The following day, they save per -2 as normal, and anything that would rstore a level will restore the -2 to everything. Just in case you're interested.
Lord_Varos 12-15-07, 08:31 PM	A good way to look at this (and also for Con Drain/Damage) is not to keep track of current hit points, but to keep track of damage taken! I concur. There is no such thing as current HP. There are only Hit Points and Wounds. A 1st level Fighter with +2 Con has 12 HP. If he takes five points of damage, he still has 12 HP (rather than 7). He just has 5 points of wounds dealt. When [HP - wounds] is equal to 0, he is Disabled.