Neutral Level 20 Dread Necromancer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Neutral Level 20 Dread Necromancer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ciryx2k
02-23-07, 02:02 AM I've got a player who is interested in the Dread Necromancer class. I don't have any problems with it, but he's planning on playing a neutral one. After looking over it again to see if anything grabbed my attention about it, I thought of something.

The lich template specifically says that anyone who gains this template has their alignment immediately switch to evil. The process is entirely voluntary and can NOT be forced on someone (per RAW). If this is the case, can a level 20 DM be of neutral alignment on the good vs. evil axis?

The reason this poses a problem for me, is the player does NOT want to be evil. Other than dabbling in necromancy, he is almost a saint. The entire reason for taking the class is he wants his character to have a "to know your foe, you must become your foe" menatlity. He does not create undead in any manner and basically is only testing these things on himself so that he has a greater understanding of undead and knows how to combat them. This leaves me with the problem that if we get to level 20 and he plays straight through, can he stay neutral? I know as a DM I can make a call saying this is an exception to RAW, but I wanted to get some opinions on here from other DMs first.
KingMarl
02-23-07, 12:16 PM Only the base lich from MMI requires that the character automatically switch to an Evil alignment.

There's other forms of lich that don't. Take a look at p. 156 of Libris Mortis, where it addresses good liches. Monsters of Faerun also mentions good liches, both regular and elven ones (called Baelnorns, if I recall properly).

There's also the Deathless type from Exalted Deeds. I don't have Heroes of Horror, so I can't comment on Dread Necromancer specifically, i.e. I don't know how the lich thing ties into it.
ciryx2k
02-23-07, 12:53 PM Okay, I just realized something. It dosn't actually give you the lich template. It changes your type to undead (giving all traits from MM1). Takes your Con score away. All HD are rerolled as d12s. This costs no exp or gold (for phylactery).

Because of this, I'd probably just say since you aren't actually taking the template, there's not change in alignment. Sorry for answering my own question, but hey, if anyone else wanted to know, here ya go :).
Krusk
02-24-07, 02:26 PM The class uses negative energy. Lots of times the simple use of negative energy is evil, because your bring more negative energy into existance. you should probably define that befor you start the campaign. If it is evil, it is pretty much impossible to play this class without being evil.
ciryx2k
02-24-07, 04:55 PM The class uses negative energy. Lots of times the simple use of negative energy is evil, because your bring more negative energy into existance. you should probably define that befor you start the campaign. If it is evil, it is pretty much impossible to play this class without being evil.

However, the class says that alignment only need be non-good. The reasoning behind this and the explanation given in the book is that a dread necromancer who acts in all other regards as a good alignment qualifies as neutral. Basically it's the whole "using evil means to achieve good ends" mentality. You can't qualifiy for being good, because you use evil things to achieve them, but since you commit good acts, it redeems it enough to where the character is considered neutral. Again, this is covered in the description of the class.
Krusk
02-25-07, 02:29 AM Thing is, a lot of DMs will not allow you to use negative energy often without drastic needs. Ok sure you can use your negative energy burst. but you better be doing it to save a building of burning celestial orphans. Or else instant alignment shift.

My point, basically was, make sure to define how negative energy relates to your game.
Witch
02-25-07, 06:45 PM It dosn't actually give you the lich template.
It does. It explicitly states: "...and becomes a lich".A lich has the lich template. What makes you think he wouldn't have the lich template? All further information in that paragraph is mere extra information - it does not render invalid the fact that he becomes a lich.
ciryx2k
02-25-07, 10:48 PM It does. It explicitly states: "...and becomes a lich".A lich has the lich template. What makes you think he wouldn't have the lich template? All further information in that paragraph is mere extra information - it does not render invalid the fact that he becomes a lich.

Oh, I must have missed that:

Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous Transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery.
A dread necromancer who is not humanoid does not gain this class feature.

This is the EXACT quote from the book. Could you please show me where it says you gain the lich template? The reference to gaining "...all the traits of the undead" does not point you to the page with the lich template, it points you to the page with the undead creature type and what any type of undead has. When you get this, you DO NOT get the natural armor bonus, lich touch attack, fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, DR, any immunities not gained from undead type, ability score increases, or racial skill bonuses.

All you get are the changes stated in the class ability description. You become a gimped form of lich, but hey, it's completely free and doesn't automatically change your alignment to evil (per RAW for the class ability).
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
02-25-07, 11:21 PM Dude, you're the Dm. Regardless of what the books say, you don't have to make him evil

Secondly, yes the Lich template specifies that you must be evil. The monster manual also says that orcs are always evil.

There are always exceptions. The reason that always evil is there, is to stress that there shouldn't be a bunch of non-evil ones running about.

But a few are ok ;)
ciryx2k
02-26-07, 01:42 AM Dude, you're the Dm. Regardless of what the books say, you don't have to make him evil

Secondly, yes the Lich template specifies that you must be evil. The monster manual also says that orcs are always evil.

There are always exceptions. The reason that always evil is there, is to stress that there shouldn't be a bunch of non-evil ones running about.

But a few are ok ;)

Oh, I know I can DM overrule it, I just don't like doing that a lot unless I feel fully justified in doing it. That's why I use these boards as a question and answer session when I'm thinking about doing it. What I'm pretty much gonna tell him is if he's going to have to stay neutral, he's gonna have to act like a saint aside from playing with negative energy on himself. We've already discussed that creating undead is right out and rebuking them should ONLY be used to get them to stand still. If he goes creating undead minions or rebuking them and using them as cannon fodder, he's going to shift to evil. End. Of. Storry.
Witch
02-26-07, 08:20 AM This is the EXACT quote from the book. Could you please show me where it says you gain the lich template?

Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous Transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery.A dread necromancer who is not humanoid does not gain this class feature.
Right there.
Epicweaver
02-26-07, 09:48 AM It's also setting specific. If you're playing in Eberron you can disregard the alignment restriction and he can retain neutrality.
Sildatorak
02-26-07, 10:43 AM The class uses negative energy. Lots of times the simple use of negative energy is evil, because your bring more negative energy into existance.
By RAW the only uses of negative energy that are evil are the spontaneous casting of inflict wounds spells and rebuking undead. It is true that many spells that utilize negative energy have the [evil] descriptor, but there are also many that do not.
ciryx2k
02-26-07, 12:01 PM Right there.

Incorrect. The Dragon Disciple PrC from DMG specifically says, "At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half dragon template." No where in the lich transformation class ability does it say, "At 20th level, a dread necromancer takes on the lich template."

The Dragon Disciple PrC has been discussed several times as to why it gives a +4 LA template at 10th level. WotC has stated that the PrC was intentionally weakened during it's progression to take this into account. A 5 sorcerer/10 dragon disciple is actually only about as powerful as a level 11 character without the Half-Dragon template. Once the template is added, the character is as powerful as a level 15 character. The dread necromancer class is not weak, in fact, as has been shown several times on the Character Optimization board, it's can be rather powerful.

I very important part of D&D is to read the exact wording of abilities. If it doesn't say, "You gain the (insert template) template" you don't gain it.
Witch
02-26-07, 12:31 PM Incorrect. The Dragon Disciple PrC from DMG specifically says, "At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half dragon template." No where in the lich transformation class ability does it say, "At 20th level, a dread necromancer takes on the lich template."

It doesn't need to. It says he becomes a lich, and a lich possesses the lich template. Have you any knowledge of a lich that does not possess the lich template? I've never seen one. I've seen dracoliches (that possess the dracolich template), I've seen dry liches (that possess the dry lich template), and I've seen many other types, each possessing their own template. I've seen half-dragons (that possess the half-dragon template), half-fey (that possess the half-fey template), etcetera. I've never seen a half-dragon that didn't possess the half-dragon template. I've never seen a half-fey that didn't possess the half-fey template. I've never seen a lich that didn't have the lich template.

The Dragon Disciple PrC has been discussed several times as to why it gives a +4 LA template at 10th level. WotC has stated that the PrC was intentionally weakened during it's progression to take this into account. A 5 sorcerer/10 dragon disciple is actually only about as powerful as a level 11 character without the Half-Dragon template. Once the template is added, the character is as powerful as a level 15 character.
No it's not. The Dragon Disciple is severely underpowered. A Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10 might be about the power of a level 10 character.

The dread necromancer class is not weak, in fact, as has been shown several times on the Character Optimization board, it's can be rather powerful.

The Dread Necromancer is not as underpowered as the Dragon Disciple. I know that. But it is not a powerful class. At level 20, they gain the full lich template, but they already have most of it. This makes the transformation far less powerful. Also, note that at the CharOp boards and elsewhere, the Dread Necromancer ends at 8th level. It's not that good as you suggest it is.

I very important part of D&D is to read the exact wording of abilities. If it doesn't say, "You gain the (insert template) template" you don't gain it.

Obviously I disagree. Tell me how you can be a lich without having the lich template.
ciryx2k
02-26-07, 02:23 PM It doesn't need to. It says he becomes a lich, and a lich possesses the lich template. Have you any knowledge of a lich that does not possess the lich template? I've never seen one. I've seen dracoliches (that possess the dracolich template), I've seen dry liches (that possess the dry lich template), and I've seen many other types, each possessing their own template. I've seen half-dragons (that possess the half-dragon template), half-fey (that possess the half-fey template), etcetera. I've never seen a half-dragon that didn't possess the half-dragon template. I've never seen a half-fey that didn't possess the half-fey template. I've never seen a lich that didn't have the lich template.

There are several PrCs that give the character abilities like this at the last level. Some state that the character gains a template, others do not. WotC would not have done this unless they intended to have it this way. It makes no sense that some classes SAY you gain the template while others don't, but you're supposed to get it anyway. This, to me, seems to be one of those times.

No it's not. The Dragon Disciple is severely underpowered. A Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10 might be about the power of a level 10 character.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they would only be ECL 10. I personally do not like the Dragon Disciple PrC because I do think it is somewhat weak, but it just backs up what I said about it intentionally being weakened because of the +4 LA template given at the end.

The Dread Necromancer is not as underpowered as the Dragon Disciple. I know that. But it is not a powerful class. At level 20, they gain the full lich template, but they already have most of it. This makes the transformation far less powerful. Also, note that at the CharOp boards and elsewhere, the Dread Necromancer ends at 8th level. It's not that good as you suggest it is.

Done correctly, this can be a VERY nasty class, it all depends on the capability of the player to build it in this manner. Personally, I do not play the wizard class ever. This class is often considered to be one of the most powerful base classes at higher levels, but even there, I stink at it. I play what I'm good at and don't play what I'm bad at.

Obviously I disagree.

Very obvious, and that's fine. People are allowed to have different opinions. In your games, give your players the lich template. In mine, I won't.

Tell me how you can be a lich without having the lich template.

Sorry, I can't resist...

By being a level 20 dread necromancer. :D
Epicweaver
02-26-07, 02:33 PM It's true though... Get out of DN at 8th level.
Sildatorak
02-26-07, 02:51 PM It doesn't need to. It says he becomes a lich, and a lich possesses the lich template. Have you any knowledge of a lich that does not possess the lich template?I'm siding with Witch on this one. In addition to it saying "becomes a lich," there is the whole getting a phlactery without paying for it bit. If the only things gained at 20th level are those abilities spelled out in the DN's ability entry, then a fat lot of good a phylactery does. Top that off with non-humanoid DN's being denied that class ability and I think there is a much stronger case for actually gaining the template then getting to call yourself a lich without actually having the template.
kadeity
02-26-07, 02:59 PM um.... what do you think the Phylactery was for?
I mean it doesnt explain that in the ability, so obviously its expecting yout o look at the lich template to find out what it does :rolleyes:

i mean... if it said "becomes a werewolf" but only explained the change to the shapechanger type, and the weakness against silver...would you not add the werewolf template?

do you need The Sage to come hold your hand?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ciryx2k 02-23-07, 02:02 AM	I've got a player who is interested in the Dread Necromancer class. I don't have any problems with it, but he's planning on playing a neutral one. After looking over it again to see if anything grabbed my attention about it, I thought of something. The lich template specifically says that anyone who gains this template has their alignment immediately switch to evil. The process is entirely voluntary and can NOT be forced on someone (per RAW). If this is the case, can a level 20 DM be of neutral alignment on the good vs. evil axis? The reason this poses a problem for me, is the player does NOT want to be evil. Other than dabbling in necromancy, he is almost a saint. The entire reason for taking the class is he wants his character to have a "to know your foe, you must become your foe" menatlity. He does not create undead in any manner and basically is only testing these things on himself so that he has a greater understanding of undead and knows how to combat them. This leaves me with the problem that if we get to level 20 and he plays straight through, can he stay neutral? I know as a DM I can make a call saying this is an exception to RAW, but I wanted to get some opinions on here from other DMs first.
KingMarl 02-23-07, 12:16 PM	Only the base lich from MMI requires that the character automatically switch to an Evil alignment. There's other forms of lich that don't. Take a look at p. 156 of Libris Mortis, where it addresses good liches. Monsters of Faerun also mentions good liches, both regular and elven ones (called Baelnorns, if I recall properly). There's also the Deathless type from Exalted Deeds. I don't have Heroes of Horror, so I can't comment on Dread Necromancer specifically, i.e. I don't know how the lich thing ties into it.
ciryx2k 02-23-07, 12:53 PM	Okay, I just realized something. It dosn't actually give you the lich template. It changes your type to undead (giving all traits from MM1). Takes your Con score away. All HD are rerolled as d12s. This costs no exp or gold (for phylactery). Because of this, I'd probably just say since you aren't actually taking the template, there's not change in alignment. Sorry for answering my own question, but hey, if anyone else wanted to know, here ya go :).
Krusk 02-24-07, 02:26 PM	The class uses negative energy. Lots of times the simple use of negative energy is evil, because your bring more negative energy into existance. you should probably define that befor you start the campaign. If it is evil, it is pretty much impossible to play this class without being evil.
ciryx2k 02-24-07, 04:55 PM	The class uses negative energy. Lots of times the simple use of negative energy is evil, because your bring more negative energy into existance. you should probably define that befor you start the campaign. If it is evil, it is pretty much impossible to play this class without being evil. However, the class says that alignment only need be non-good. The reasoning behind this and the explanation given in the book is that a dread necromancer who acts in all other regards as a good alignment qualifies as neutral. Basically it's the whole "using evil means to achieve good ends" mentality. You can't qualifiy for being good, because you use evil things to achieve them, but since you commit good acts, it redeems it enough to where the character is considered neutral. Again, this is covered in the description of the class.
Krusk 02-25-07, 02:29 AM	Thing is, a lot of DMs will not allow you to use negative energy often without drastic needs. Ok sure you can use your negative energy burst. but you better be doing it to save a building of burning celestial orphans. Or else instant alignment shift. My point, basically was, make sure to define how negative energy relates to your game.
Witch 02-25-07, 06:45 PM	It dosn't actually give you the lich template. It does. It explicitly states: "...and becomes a lich".A lich has the lich template. What makes you think he wouldn't have the lich template? All further information in that paragraph is mere extra information - it does not render invalid the fact that he becomes a lich.
ciryx2k 02-25-07, 10:48 PM	It does. It explicitly states: "...and becomes a lich".A lich has the lich template. What makes you think he wouldn't have the lich template? All further information in that paragraph is mere extra information - it does not render invalid the fact that he becomes a lich. Oh, I must have missed that: Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous Transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery. A dread necromancer who is not humanoid does not gain this class feature. This is the EXACT quote from the book. Could you please show me where it says you gain the lich template? The reference to gaining "...all the traits of the undead" does not point you to the page with the lich template, it points you to the page with the undead creature type and what any type of undead has. When you get this, you DO NOT get the natural armor bonus, lich touch attack, fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, DR, any immunities not gained from undead type, ability score increases, or racial skill bonuses. All you get are the changes stated in the class ability description. You become a gimped form of lich, but hey, it's completely free and doesn't automatically change your alignment to evil (per RAW for the class ability).
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-25-07, 11:21 PM	Dude, you're the Dm. Regardless of what the books say, you don't have to make him evil Secondly, yes the Lich template specifies that you must be evil. The monster manual also says that orcs are always evil. There are always exceptions. The reason that always evil is there, is to stress that there shouldn't be a bunch of non-evil ones running about. But a few are ok ;)
ciryx2k 02-26-07, 01:42 AM	Dude, you're the Dm. Regardless of what the books say, you don't have to make him evil Secondly, yes the Lich template specifies that you must be evil. The monster manual also says that orcs are always evil. There are always exceptions. The reason that always evil is there, is to stress that there shouldn't be a bunch of non-evil ones running about. But a few are ok ;) Oh, I know I can DM overrule it, I just don't like doing that a lot unless I feel fully justified in doing it. That's why I use these boards as a question and answer session when I'm thinking about doing it. What I'm pretty much gonna tell him is if he's going to have to stay neutral, he's gonna have to act like a saint aside from playing with negative energy on himself. We've already discussed that creating undead is right out and rebuking them should ONLY be used to get them to stand still. If he goes creating undead minions or rebuking them and using them as cannon fodder, he's going to shift to evil. End. Of. Storry.
Witch 02-26-07, 08:20 AM	This is the EXACT quote from the book. Could you please show me where it says you gain the lich template? Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous Transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery.A dread necromancer who is not humanoid does not gain this class feature. Right there.
Epicweaver 02-26-07, 09:48 AM	It's also setting specific. If you're playing in Eberron you can disregard the alignment restriction and he can retain neutrality.
Sildatorak 02-26-07, 10:43 AM	The class uses negative energy. Lots of times the simple use of negative energy is evil, because your bring more negative energy into existance. By RAW the only uses of negative energy that are evil are the spontaneous casting of inflict wounds spells and rebuking undead. It is true that many spells that utilize negative energy have the [evil] descriptor, but there are also many that do not.
ciryx2k 02-26-07, 12:01 PM	Right there. Incorrect. The Dragon Disciple PrC from DMG specifically says, "At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half dragon template." No where in the lich transformation class ability does it say, "At 20th level, a dread necromancer takes on the lich template." The Dragon Disciple PrC has been discussed several times as to why it gives a +4 LA template at 10th level. WotC has stated that the PrC was intentionally weakened during it's progression to take this into account. A 5 sorcerer/10 dragon disciple is actually only about as powerful as a level 11 character without the Half-Dragon template. Once the template is added, the character is as powerful as a level 15 character. The dread necromancer class is not weak, in fact, as has been shown several times on the Character Optimization board, it's can be rather powerful. I very important part of D&D is to read the exact wording of abilities. If it doesn't say, "You gain the (insert template) template" you don't gain it.
Witch 02-26-07, 12:31 PM	Incorrect. The Dragon Disciple PrC from DMG specifically says, "At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half dragon template." No where in the lich transformation class ability does it say, "At 20th level, a dread necromancer takes on the lich template." It doesn't need to. It says he becomes a lich, and a lich possesses the lich template. Have you any knowledge of a lich that does not possess the lich template? I've never seen one. I've seen dracoliches (that possess the dracolich template), I've seen dry liches (that possess the dry lich template), and I've seen many other types, each possessing their own template. I've seen half-dragons (that possess the half-dragon template), half-fey (that possess the half-fey template), etcetera. I've never seen a half-dragon that didn't possess the half-dragon template. I've never seen a half-fey that didn't possess the half-fey template. I've never seen a lich that didn't have the lich template. The Dragon Disciple PrC has been discussed several times as to why it gives a +4 LA template at 10th level. WotC has stated that the PrC was intentionally weakened during it's progression to take this into account. A 5 sorcerer/10 dragon disciple is actually only about as powerful as a level 11 character without the Half-Dragon template. Once the template is added, the character is as powerful as a level 15 character. No it's not. The Dragon Disciple is severely underpowered. A Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10 might be about the power of a level 10 character. The dread necromancer class is not weak, in fact, as has been shown several times on the Character Optimization board, it's can be rather powerful. The Dread Necromancer is not as underpowered as the Dragon Disciple. I know that. But it is not a powerful class. At level 20, they gain the full lich template, but they already have most of it. This makes the transformation far less powerful. Also, note that at the CharOp boards and elsewhere, the Dread Necromancer ends at 8th level. It's not that good as you suggest it is. I very important part of D&D is to read the exact wording of abilities. If it doesn't say, "You gain the (insert template) template" you don't gain it. Obviously I disagree. Tell me how you can be a lich without having the lich template.
ciryx2k 02-26-07, 02:23 PM	It doesn't need to. It says he becomes a lich, and a lich possesses the lich template. Have you any knowledge of a lich that does not possess the lich template? I've never seen one. I've seen dracoliches (that possess the dracolich template), I've seen dry liches (that possess the dry lich template), and I've seen many other types, each possessing their own template. I've seen half-dragons (that possess the half-dragon template), half-fey (that possess the half-fey template), etcetera. I've never seen a half-dragon that didn't possess the half-dragon template. I've never seen a half-fey that didn't possess the half-fey template. I've never seen a lich that didn't have the lich template. There are several PrCs that give the character abilities like this at the last level. Some state that the character gains a template, others do not. WotC would not have done this unless they intended to have it this way. It makes no sense that some classes SAY you gain the template while others don't, but you're supposed to get it anyway. This, to me, seems to be one of those times. No it's not. The Dragon Disciple is severely underpowered. A Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10 might be about the power of a level 10 character. I wouldn't go so far as to say they would only be ECL 10. I personally do not like the Dragon Disciple PrC because I do think it is somewhat weak, but it just backs up what I said about it intentionally being weakened because of the +4 LA template given at the end. The Dread Necromancer is not as underpowered as the Dragon Disciple. I know that. But it is not a powerful class. At level 20, they gain the full lich template, but they already have most of it. This makes the transformation far less powerful. Also, note that at the CharOp boards and elsewhere, the Dread Necromancer ends at 8th level. It's not that good as you suggest it is. Done correctly, this can be a VERY nasty class, it all depends on the capability of the player to build it in this manner. Personally, I do not play the wizard class ever. This class is often considered to be one of the most powerful base classes at higher levels, but even there, I stink at it. I play what I'm good at and don't play what I'm bad at. Obviously I disagree. Very obvious, and that's fine. People are allowed to have different opinions. In your games, give your players the lich template. In mine, I won't. Tell me how you can be a lich without having the lich template. Sorry, I can't resist... By being a level 20 dread necromancer. :D
Epicweaver 02-26-07, 02:33 PM	It's true though... Get out of DN at 8th level.
Sildatorak 02-26-07, 02:51 PM	It doesn't need to. It says he becomes a lich, and a lich possesses the lich template. Have you any knowledge of a lich that does not possess the lich template?I'm siding with Witch on this one. In addition to it saying "becomes a lich," there is the whole getting a phlactery without paying for it bit. If the only things gained at 20th level are those abilities spelled out in the DN's ability entry, then a fat lot of good a phylactery does. Top that off with non-humanoid DN's being denied that class ability and I think there is a much stronger case for actually gaining the template then getting to call yourself a lich without actually having the template.
kadeity 02-26-07, 02:59 PM	um.... what do you think the Phylactery was for? I mean it doesnt explain that in the ability, so obviously its expecting yout o look at the lich template to find out what it does :rolleyes: i mean... if it said "becomes a werewolf" but only explained the change to the shapechanger type, and the weakness against silver...would you not add the werewolf template? do you need The Sage to come hold your hand?