Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Ditto 03-22-07, 08:57 AM	Ok .. so I'm curious ... The new FAQ outlines this question/answer: If a character with bull’s strength takes 4 points of Strength damage from a poison, does the damage apply to his actual Strength or does it just negate the bonus? Both effects (the bonus from bull’s strength and the damage from poison) exist separately. Each one adjusts the character’s Strength score accordingly, and if one effect ends the other remains as normal. Let’s walk through two examples: A human fighter with Strength 14 drinks a potion of bull’s strength, which increases his Strength to 18. A few rounds before it elapses, he takes 4 points of Strength damage, reducing his Strength to 14. This has no impact on the potion’s effect, and the character still technically has a +4 enhancement bonus to his Strength score (so another bull’s strength spell would have no effect). When the potion’s duration elapses, the +4 bonus disappears, reducing his Strength to 10. A halfling wizard with Strength 8 takes 10 points of Strength damage, reducing his Strength to 0. (There are no negative ability scores.) If the party’s paladin casts bull’s strength on the halfling, his Strength increases to 4 for the duration of the spell. If, during that spell’s duration, the halfling takes another 5 points of Strength damage, his Strength is once again 0. When the spell wears off, he loses the +4 bonus but is still at Strength 0. The examples are kinda funny - I think - as they don't really help us understand one small side-issue. Let's take the Halfling Wizard / Paladin example at the end ... Halfling Wizard (HW): Str 8. Takes 10 pouts of Strength damage. Str is now 0. Paladin (P) casts Bull Strength. HW Str is now 4. HW takes another 5 pts of Str. Dmg. HW Str is again 0. Bull Strength Wears off. HW Str is still 0. (the example stops here ... let's keep going ....) P casts another Bull Strength. HW Str is ?? (From the way the FAQ is working, sounds like it goes back up to 4?) I'm just curious as to opinions on this ... Rules seem simple enough to follow in this case (and that's probably what they were after) ... but it does seem ... well .. "odd" to me anyway ... :D
orionm42 03-22-07, 09:46 AM	In your expanded example, I agree the halfling wizard's strength goes back up to 4 for the duration of the spell.
Frugal 03-22-07, 11:41 AM	Agreed, you can never take your STR below 0. Otherwise I might as well argue that the 10 STR damage originally taken put him to -2 STR so the bull's strength only brings him up to 2 STR.
olshanski_home 03-22-07, 12:04 PM	Someone with a +4 girdle of giant strength and a strength of 10 could take 20 points of strength damage (reducing him to 0 strength), then take the ring off and put it back on and be fine to operate with a strength of 4. I don't like this ruling at all. It also means that no matter how much ability damage you take, you are going to be out of your coma or no longer helpless in 24 hours. I think allowing ability scores to go below zero does not break the game. It also fixes any problems with enhancements. It also makes some creatures more dangerous... it might take several extra days to recover fully from a poison. Character "A" has a DEX of 5 and gloves of dexterity +4 and gets stung by giant wasps 10 times, failing his saves, and taking 45 points of dex damage. Character "B" has a Dex of 15 and gets stung by a giant wasp 3 times, failing his saves and taking 15 points of Dex damage. Character "A" is recovered in 1/3 the time of character "B", even though character "A" took 3x as much damage! (A is fine in 5 days, B takes 15 days to heal)
Marcus Majarra 03-22-07, 04:06 PM	I think allowing ability scores to go below zero does not break the game. It also fixes any problems with enhancements. It also makes some creatures more dangerous... it might take several extra days to recover fully from a poison. I prefer the more convenient solution of tallying damage and damage caps separately. For example, you tally your Strength score and your Strength ability damage separately. This way, whenever you sustain more Strength damage than your score, you become unconscious. Even the removal and reapplying of Strength enhancers will not affect the outcome, since these will only affect the Strength damage cap. Keep in mind, however, that this is not in the RAW (if the RAW corroborates with the FAQ).
Frugal 03-22-07, 04:34 PM	I'd just tell my players to stop being silly if they tried that kind of cheese, but I happen to have a group that's good enough to go along with that, and who probably wouldn't try to cheese out like that in the 1st place. I don't like the idea of someone who is buffed not being as tough against ability damage. So maybe just rule that any permanent effect (ie, and item) that was on you when you took the damage will have the damage applied until you heal the damage, so you can take the item off and put it back on, you'll still have the same STR score as when you took the damage (while under the effect). This means that temporary buffs can still help you out, and even get you back on your feet fine, but any permanent effect (item) can't be just taken off and put back on.
Dragonteuthis 03-22-07, 04:46 PM	Someone with a +4 girdle of giant strength and a strength of 10 could take 20 points of strength damage (reducing him to 0 strength), then take the ring off and put it back on and be fine to operate with a strength of 4. Precisely a problem I've had with the "minimum zero" rule since quite early in 3.0 actually. I prefer the more convenient solution of tallying damage and damage caps separately. For example, you tally your Strength score and your Strength ability damage separately. This way, whenever you sustain more Strength damage than your score, you become unconscious. Even the removal and reapplying of Strength enhancers will not affect the outcome, since these will only affect the Strength damage cap. And precisely what I did to remedy it! perhaps great minds do think alike!
Archtyrant Terevoth 03-22-07, 04:52 PM	I think allowing ability scores to go below zero does not break the game. It also fixes any problems with enhancements. It also makes some creatures more dangerous... it might take several extra days to recover fully from a poison. It's not a big deal. Hp damage already goes below 0, I see no reason why ability damage couldn't do the same thing.
The_Ditto 03-22-07, 05:43 PM	Someone with a +4 girdle of giant strength and a strength of 10 could take 20 points of strength damage (reducing him to 0 strength), then take the ring off and put it back on and be fine to operate with a strength of 4. Yeah, that's kinda what was bugging me about it .. :tiphat: well put .. I don't like this ruling at all. I'm glad I'm not the only one ... :D It also means that no matter how much ability damage you take, you are going to be out of your coma or no longer helpless in 24 hours. True, that's another aspect that's ... "odd". I prefer the more convenient solution of tallying damage and damage caps separately. [snip] Keep in mind, however, that this is not in the RAW (if the RAW corroborates with the FAQ). Actually, it sort of is ... for Hit Points ... take a closer look at Barbarian's rage, and all the examples around them ... they tend to talk about your Max Hitpoints .. and the damage you took ... (as opposed to a Current HP ... although some examples do that as well). That said, I do agree with you ... I track Damage and Max myself .... I'll probably just do the same for ability points, and let it sort itself out ... safer in the long run .. and doesn't create these "oddities" ... I'd just tell my players to stop being silly if they tried that kind of cheese, but I happen to have a group that's good enough to go along with that, and who probably wouldn't try to cheese out like that in the 1st place. hey, I'm all for the don't bother with the cheese .. however ... I also prefer the rules to not allow the cheese in the first place - if there's an option ... and it appears there is ....
primemover003 03-22-07, 07:59 PM	As much as I agree that a Character with an Stat Boosting Item shouldn't be able to take it off and put it back on to get above 0, it's really not that easy in the middle of an encounter. Firstly when you hit stat 0 in anything but Con you're paralysed and can't do anything anyway! A fellow party member or cohort needs to come over and do it for them possibly provoking several AoO's. And they couldn't cast the appropriate spell on the downed character because the stat boosting items already on (unless it's only a +2). After the encounters over it generally won't matter because for the most part the healer in the group is likely to have access to restorative spells, scrolls, or potions... unless the party is very low level and stat boositn items aren't an issue. Another issue is Penalties to ability scores. I'm of the school that when penalties and damage mix the penalty is applied after the damage. So there's no Ray of Clumsiness on a Dragon taking it to 1 Dex then hitting it with an Ice Knife and dropping it to 0. You take the damage off the unmodified score then apply the penalty to a min of 1.
Frugal 03-22-07, 10:14 PM	The thing I like about the ruling is that it does allow the party to keep someone going with buffs or potions if they have to, using disposable resources. That's why I just wanted to block permanent effects that were on during the damage from being removed and put back on. Tracking damage separately means you can't apply a temporary buff to get them moving again. I don't mind the PCs expending resources though to get a party member back on his feet. Heck, I don't even mind if another party member removes an item to give to the downed PC because that's taking a resource away from that party member. I just don't want to see cheesy exploitation of a loophole so I'll just close that loophole and allow the other stuff.
The_Ditto 03-23-07, 08:16 AM	As much as I agree that a Character with an Stat Boosting Item shouldn't be able to take it off and put it back on to get above 0, it's really not that easy in the middle of an encounter. Firstly when you hit stat 0 in anything but Con you're paralysed and can't do anything anyway! A fellow party member or cohort needs to come over and do it for them possibly provoking several AoO's. And they couldn't cast the appropriate spell on the downed character because the stat boosting items already on (unless it's only a +2). Agreed .. it's not a real issue while still in combat ... the argument would (mostly) be post-combat ... (or post-trap .. heh) After the encounters over it generally won't matter because for the most part the healer in the group is likely to have access to restorative spells, scrolls, or potions... unless the party is very low level and stat boositn items aren't an issue. I disagree. Two characters - both with a Belt of Giant Strength +4. Both have a Str of 10. Both are hit for 14 pts of Str damage. (or more - doesn't matter) They now are both at zero. One of them gets help to remove their belt and put it back on ... The other does not (as you said - it shouldn't matter, right?) First is now at 4 Str, 2nd is still at 0. Healer now starts to heal them .... Uh ... seriously ... that's 1 or 2 less Lesser Restorations that are needed ... I don't why you wouldn't take the belt off and put it back on!!! No .. I don't like that "cheese" any more than anything else ... I think it's simple enough to track "negative" ability damage .. (although being at -4 Str holds no more penalties than being at 0 .... other than a longer heal time ...) .. and it stops this .. "silliness" ... :tiphat: Another issue is Penalties to ability scores. I'm of the school that when penalties and damage mix the penalty is applied after the damage. So there's no Ray of Clumsiness on a Dragon taking it to 1 Dex then hitting it with an Ice Knife and dropping it to 0. You take the damage off the unmodified score then apply the penalty to a min of 1. That's a good point as well ... it also stops the "Ray of Idiocy(?)" + "Ego Whip" I drop the creature in 1 round ... (we actually did that in 1 old campaign ... heh :blush: )