NPC levels and CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

NPC levels and CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Skjaldbakka
03-05-07, 10:46 PM A discussion that I had on another forum that challenges the way I have been running the CR of NPC classes. Apparently, a character (say a human) with all NPC classes has a CR equal to his total level -1. I had always run NPC classes as per MM non-associated class levels (non-associated class levels count as 1/2 CR a piece, NPC classes are always treated as non-associated).

After considering this model, and comparing CRs of MM monsters with the CR of an NPC with equivalent CR (using both models), I have found that the way I have been using seems more accurate, and yet the RAW states the -1 rule that makes no sense upon further consideration:

Let us take for an example the humble level 6 warrior. According to the monster manual, this is CR 3, but according to the DMG he is CR 5.

What do we do when we are unsure of the CR of something? We compare it to other things that are of the same CR, and that work to challenge the party in similar ways.

Our comparisons will be the troll, weighing in at CR 5, and the dire wolf, CR 3.

There are some things that all three challenges have in common.

1) they all have 6d8 HD
2) they are all predominantly melee combatants

First, lets say that the level 6 warrior is an equal challenge to the troll:

What has the warrior got?
Equipment: a level 6 warrior has +1 weapons and armor, and maybe a +2 stat boost or AC item. (guess)
+6 BAB

What has the troll got?
+4 BAB, but the strength difference makes up for the loss of to-hit, and claw/claw/bite makes up for the loss of an extra attack.
Universally better Str/Dex/Con
Regeneration
Scent

Clear and obvious advantage- Troll

Next, lets say that the warrior is a match for the Dire Wolf
(CR 3)

Warrior:
+6 BAB (extra attack)
Equipment (see above)

Dire Wolf
Strength makes up for the lower BAB, but still only gets one attack a round, leaving some advantage to the warrior.
Trip
Scent

Advantage- I would say dire wolf, but the dire wolf's lower AC makes the iterative attack more likely to hit, and thus more valuable. I would still rather fight a level 6 warrior than a Dire Wolf though (as a level 6 fighter).

In conclusion, I think it is clear that the level 6 warrior is closer to the Dire Wolf than the Troll in CR, and the conclusion we can draw from that is . . . the monster manual is correct, and NPC levels are worth 1/2 CR a piece. If you still have doubts, compare a troll with warrior levels to a human warrior of the same (according to the DMG) CR. Troll Wins.
olshanski_home
03-05-07, 11:34 PM You have misunderstood the MM.

Non-associated levels count as half-CR per level until they exceed the number of racial HD a creature has, at that point, each non-associated level is associated and increases CR on a 1-for-1 ratio. The MM and DMG are identical in the treatment of CR based on NPC levels.

Another thing is that whatever the fractional "base" CR of a creature is, that's how many NPC levels are required to make a CR 1, and from that point on every NPC level adds 1 to CR.

An ogre has 4 racial HD and is CR3.
An ogre with 2 NPC levels is CR4
An ogre with 4 NPC levels is CR5
(at this point, NPC levels don't exceed racial HD, thus each NPC level is 1/2 cr).
However, an ogre with 5 NPC levels is CR6
An ogre with 6 NPC levels is CR7
An ogre with 8 NPC levels is CR8 and so on.

All that being said, you haven't considered that there is also a guideline of wealth per NPC level, and that a 10th level NPC can have some powerful magical items that increase his threat.

I look at it this way: If you are going to have a combatant, they should not be constructed with NPC levels. It isn't a challenge to fight a commoner or an expert under any circumstances, and thus there is no CR for beating a non-combatant.

Warrior levels should be used sparingly, or should be used with monsters that have a good deal of racial HD. Adepts are fair at very low levels with low CR creatures (a goblen ADP3 or kobold ADP4 are both CR1 encounters). At higher levels, you should not be using adepts in combat encounters.

You are correct that there is no way a human COM9 is a CR8 threat. You simply should not be using a COM9 as a combat challenge.
If you ran a game in which all of the characters had natural flight somehow, you wouldn't include a pit trap as a challenge to overcome, because it isn't a challenge. Just like in an aquatic campaign with all aquatic characters, you wouldn't have a water-filled room trap. Its the same reason that in a campaign with normal characters you shouldn't use high level adepts, experts, or commoners as any sort of combat challenge.
FriendoftheDork
03-06-07, 08:53 AM Although the CR=lvl-1 for NPC classes is correct, I generally use CR=lvl/2 instead. Basically, a 6th level warrior is a challenge for a 3rd level party.

Since I use the vitality/wounds system also, I reduce CR of all creatures without vitality by 1 more.

That said, a 6th level warrior, properly equipped and min-maxed COULD take out a 3rd level PC in one critical hit. Let's give him str 14 (quite possible with 15 point-buy), a +1 greatsword, perhaps even a potion of bulls strenght and power attack, weapon focus, improved initative.

That's +12/+7 2d6+7, or +6/+1 2d6+19. That's 4d6+38, or average 52 damage, enough to reduce most 3rd level characters to -10hp and beyond.

My point? NPC classes are weaker, but properly deployed they can be very challenging. Also keep in mind that even with int as dump stat this warrior will be ALOT smarter than either the Troll or the Dire wolf, meaning he can ambush, get help, attack at opportune moments, or even pretend like he's friendly. I use NPC classes alot in my game where the PCs are 8th level!
Epicweaver
03-06-07, 09:04 AM Your model works at low levels... however, I believe you'd find that a level 20 warrior with 220,000gp in gear (standard for an NPC), would probably be too powerful for a CR10 against a four-man party of ECL10.
runestar
03-06-07, 09:16 AM Potions are key.
Have the warrior buff up prior to combat with bull's str, cat's grace, endurance, barksin, prot from alignment...:D
FriendoftheDork
03-06-07, 10:08 AM Your model works at low levels... however, I believe you'd find that a level 20 warrior with 220,000gp in gear (standard for an NPC), would probably be too powerful for a CR10 against a four-man party of ECL10.

I don't give NPC classes full treasure... thus the 20th level warrior might just have mw equipment and no magic at all, or perhaps a few potions.

Note also that with the vitality/wounds system, said 20th level warrior only has about 14-17 wound points and no vitality points at all (which means any critical hit is immedately fatal).

However, the high BAB and many feats means that it will still be somewhat challenging.

FYI, a 20th level fighter with full treasure would still get pawned by our 8th level gestalt party, unless the fighter had very good magic items against invisible, flying opponents. The poor sap would be lucky to hit any PC at all.
Epicweaver
03-06-07, 02:13 PM I don't give NPC classes full treasure... thus the 20th level warrior might just have mw equipment and no magic at all, or perhaps a few potions. Well, not giving your NPCs full equipment is a solid reason for them not being a challenge to the party at their Level -1 level. Obviously you're restricting the cash flow (which is smart), but still, to be a proper challenge, an NPC should have standard NPC wealth in gear.

Note also that with the vitality/wounds system, said 20th level warrior only has about 14-17 wound points and no vitality points at all (which means any critical hit is immedately fatal).The VP/WP system has it's merits, but balancing encounters can be a lot more difficult... and really doesn't fall back into the standard DMG encounter model.

However, the high BAB and many feats means that it will still be somewhat challenging.

FYI, a 20th level fighter with full treasure would still get pawned by our 8th level gestalt party, unless the fighter had very good magic items against invisible, flying opponents. The poor sap would be lucky to hit any PC at all.Fighter 20? Meh... If you say so... Perhaps you're just not thinking hard enough for what can be done with 760,000gp. Using VP/WP system, I think it's quite possible for an elite array Ftr20 to take out a group of high-powered, 8th level gestalts.
FriendoftheDork
03-08-07, 12:23 PM Fighter 20? Meh... If you say so... Perhaps you're just not thinking hard enough for what can be done with 760,000gp. Using VP/WP system, I think it's quite possible for an elite array Ftr20 to take out a group of high-powered, 8th level gestalts.

Note that I said WITHOUT certain magic items. It's not hard to make a fighter be able to pawn such a group, but a standard fighter will rely on the support of his party against spellcasters, notably against invis, fly, etc. Thus a 20th level fighter solely focused on melee (with perhaps a poor secondary ranged weapon) will be pawned.

If I ever made a 20th level fighter to challenge the party (unlikely), I certainly would give him items enabling him to fly, teleport, see invisible and get good resistance against charm/compulsions, and various elemental resistance. That, plus an armor/shield of heavy fortification. Of course the party would lose alot of fights against him, and won't be getting him without serious hit-and-run and outside help.

My point was merely that opponents without spells and helpful class abilities will not be very challenging against my party.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skjaldbakka 03-05-07, 10:46 PM	A discussion that I had on another forum that challenges the way I have been running the CR of NPC classes. Apparently, a character (say a human) with all NPC classes has a CR equal to his total level -1. I had always run NPC classes as per MM non-associated class levels (non-associated class levels count as 1/2 CR a piece, NPC classes are always treated as non-associated). After considering this model, and comparing CRs of MM monsters with the CR of an NPC with equivalent CR (using both models), I have found that the way I have been using seems more accurate, and yet the RAW states the -1 rule that makes no sense upon further consideration: Let us take for an example the humble level 6 warrior. According to the monster manual, this is CR 3, but according to the DMG he is CR 5. What do we do when we are unsure of the CR of something? We compare it to other things that are of the same CR, and that work to challenge the party in similar ways. Our comparisons will be the troll, weighing in at CR 5, and the dire wolf, CR 3. There are some things that all three challenges have in common. 1) they all have 6d8 HD 2) they are all predominantly melee combatants First, lets say that the level 6 warrior is an equal challenge to the troll: What has the warrior got? Equipment: a level 6 warrior has +1 weapons and armor, and maybe a +2 stat boost or AC item. (guess) +6 BAB What has the troll got? +4 BAB, but the strength difference makes up for the loss of to-hit, and claw/claw/bite makes up for the loss of an extra attack. Universally better Str/Dex/Con Regeneration Scent Clear and obvious advantage- Troll Next, lets say that the warrior is a match for the Dire Wolf (CR 3) Warrior: +6 BAB (extra attack) Equipment (see above) Dire Wolf Strength makes up for the lower BAB, but still only gets one attack a round, leaving some advantage to the warrior. Trip Scent Advantage- I would say dire wolf, but the dire wolf's lower AC makes the iterative attack more likely to hit, and thus more valuable. I would still rather fight a level 6 warrior than a Dire Wolf though (as a level 6 fighter). In conclusion, I think it is clear that the level 6 warrior is closer to the Dire Wolf than the Troll in CR, and the conclusion we can draw from that is . . . the monster manual is correct, and NPC levels are worth 1/2 CR a piece. If you still have doubts, compare a troll with warrior levels to a human warrior of the same (according to the DMG) CR. Troll Wins.
olshanski_home 03-05-07, 11:34 PM	You have misunderstood the MM. Non-associated levels count as half-CR per level until they exceed the number of racial HD a creature has, at that point, each non-associated level is associated and increases CR on a 1-for-1 ratio. The MM and DMG are identical in the treatment of CR based on NPC levels. Another thing is that whatever the fractional "base" CR of a creature is, that's how many NPC levels are required to make a CR 1, and from that point on every NPC level adds 1 to CR. An ogre has 4 racial HD and is CR3. An ogre with 2 NPC levels is CR4 An ogre with 4 NPC levels is CR5 (at this point, NPC levels don't exceed racial HD, thus each NPC level is 1/2 cr). However, an ogre with 5 NPC levels is CR6 An ogre with 6 NPC levels is CR7 An ogre with 8 NPC levels is CR8 and so on. All that being said, you haven't considered that there is also a guideline of wealth per NPC level, and that a 10th level NPC can have some powerful magical items that increase his threat. I look at it this way: If you are going to have a combatant, they should not be constructed with NPC levels. It isn't a challenge to fight a commoner or an expert under any circumstances, and thus there is no CR for beating a non-combatant. Warrior levels should be used sparingly, or should be used with monsters that have a good deal of racial HD. Adepts are fair at very low levels with low CR creatures (a goblen ADP3 or kobold ADP4 are both CR1 encounters). At higher levels, you should not be using adepts in combat encounters. You are correct that there is no way a human COM9 is a CR8 threat. You simply should not be using a COM9 as a combat challenge. If you ran a game in which all of the characters had natural flight somehow, you wouldn't include a pit trap as a challenge to overcome, because it isn't a challenge. Just like in an aquatic campaign with all aquatic characters, you wouldn't have a water-filled room trap. Its the same reason that in a campaign with normal characters you shouldn't use high level adepts, experts, or commoners as any sort of combat challenge.
FriendoftheDork 03-06-07, 08:53 AM	Although the CR=lvl-1 for NPC classes is correct, I generally use CR=lvl/2 instead. Basically, a 6th level warrior is a challenge for a 3rd level party. Since I use the vitality/wounds system also, I reduce CR of all creatures without vitality by 1 more. That said, a 6th level warrior, properly equipped and min-maxed COULD take out a 3rd level PC in one critical hit. Let's give him str 14 (quite possible with 15 point-buy), a +1 greatsword, perhaps even a potion of bulls strenght and power attack, weapon focus, improved initative. That's +12/+7 2d6+7, or +6/+1 2d6+19. That's 4d6+38, or average 52 damage, enough to reduce most 3rd level characters to -10hp and beyond. My point? NPC classes are weaker, but properly deployed they can be very challenging. Also keep in mind that even with int as dump stat this warrior will be ALOT smarter than either the Troll or the Dire wolf, meaning he can ambush, get help, attack at opportune moments, or even pretend like he's friendly. I use NPC classes alot in my game where the PCs are 8th level!
Epicweaver 03-06-07, 09:04 AM	Your model works at low levels... however, I believe you'd find that a level 20 warrior with 220,000gp in gear (standard for an NPC), would probably be too powerful for a CR10 against a four-man party of ECL10.
runestar 03-06-07, 09:16 AM	Potions are key. Have the warrior buff up prior to combat with bull's str, cat's grace, endurance, barksin, prot from alignment...:D
FriendoftheDork 03-06-07, 10:08 AM	Your model works at low levels... however, I believe you'd find that a level 20 warrior with 220,000gp in gear (standard for an NPC), would probably be too powerful for a CR10 against a four-man party of ECL10. I don't give NPC classes full treasure... thus the 20th level warrior might just have mw equipment and no magic at all, or perhaps a few potions. Note also that with the vitality/wounds system, said 20th level warrior only has about 14-17 wound points and no vitality points at all (which means any critical hit is immedately fatal). However, the high BAB and many feats means that it will still be somewhat challenging. FYI, a 20th level fighter with full treasure would still get pawned by our 8th level gestalt party, unless the fighter had very good magic items against invisible, flying opponents. The poor sap would be lucky to hit any PC at all.
Epicweaver 03-06-07, 02:13 PM	I don't give NPC classes full treasure... thus the 20th level warrior might just have mw equipment and no magic at all, or perhaps a few potions. Well, not giving your NPCs full equipment is a solid reason for them not being a challenge to the party at their Level -1 level. Obviously you're restricting the cash flow (which is smart), but still, to be a proper challenge, an NPC should have standard NPC wealth in gear. Note also that with the vitality/wounds system, said 20th level warrior only has about 14-17 wound points and no vitality points at all (which means any critical hit is immedately fatal).The VP/WP system has it's merits, but balancing encounters can be a lot more difficult... and really doesn't fall back into the standard DMG encounter model. However, the high BAB and many feats means that it will still be somewhat challenging. FYI, a 20th level fighter with full treasure would still get pawned by our 8th level gestalt party, unless the fighter had very good magic items against invisible, flying opponents. The poor sap would be lucky to hit any PC at all.Fighter 20? Meh... If you say so... Perhaps you're just not thinking hard enough for what can be done with 760,000gp. Using VP/WP system, I think it's quite possible for an elite array Ftr20 to take out a group of high-powered, 8th level gestalts.
FriendoftheDork 03-08-07, 12:23 PM	Fighter 20? Meh... If you say so... Perhaps you're just not thinking hard enough for what can be done with 760,000gp. Using VP/WP system, I think it's quite possible for an elite array Ftr20 to take out a group of high-powered, 8th level gestalts. Note that I said WITHOUT certain magic items. It's not hard to make a fighter be able to pawn such a group, but a standard fighter will rely on the support of his party against spellcasters, notably against invis, fly, etc. Thus a 20th level fighter solely focused on melee (with perhaps a poor secondary ranged weapon) will be pawned. If I ever made a 20th level fighter to challenge the party (unlikely), I certainly would give him items enabling him to fly, teleport, see invisible and get good resistance against charm/compulsions, and various elemental resistance. That, plus an armor/shield of heavy fortification. Of course the party would lose alot of fights against him, and won't be getting him without serious hit-and-run and outside help. My point was merely that opponents without spells and helpful class abilities will not be very challenging against my party.