obtaining a spell component [Archive] - Wizards Community

obtaining a spell component [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tegemea
03-22-07, 02:07 PM alright, so I've got a great group of players, to even come up with this issue, so far as i'm concerned. So its clear, the dominant alignment in the group is Lawful Good, and certainly good overall.

The divination they are trying to have cast (by an NPC) needs a spell component, the eye of a giant eagle or a roc. I decided that since they are relatively low level, obtaining the somewhat special spell component themselves could be a good side-quest and i could let it save them some money on the spell. Their first step was to go to a sage and try to figure out where they could find giant eagles. Upon learning that giant eagles are sentient, noble creatures, some role-play arguments got going about how an eye could be ethically obtained. A place to buy spell components was the first suggestion, but i'll admit it, after seeing the great role-play discussion that had already started, i didn't want to give it to them that easily. Instead i gave them the idea through an NPC that they could go to this (quickly created) exotic animal trainer who mostly raised animals to battle in a colliseum-type arena, but would also sell creatures as mounts. The PCs went there, saw a giant eagle in captivity, and couldn't deal with taking its eye or killing it. Anyway, everyone was getting really into it by this point, and someone had the following idea:

bring the NPC wizard a random animal. for best ethical results, a dying animal. Pay a little extra to have the wizard polymorph the animal into a giant eagle (a magical beast under the HD limit, so legit as far as i can tell). Take out an eye, heal the giant eagle, perform the divination, and put the animal/giant eagle down, or release it for a new lease on life as a one-eyed giant eagle.

any reason why it shouldn't work? at first they were going on the question of would the eye remain a giant eagle eye if removed from the body, which would revert to animal form if killed. However, they decided to avoid that by casting the divination before the animal dies, or just leave the animal a giant eagle.

thoughts welcome.
orionm42
03-22-07, 03:03 PM at first they were going on the question of would the eye remain a giant eagle eye if removed from the body, which would revert to animal form if killed...

I would say the eye would revert to original form. Note this from the description of polymorph...

If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

With that said, a polymorphed giant eagle is not a “true” giant eagle in all respects (remember, it retains the intelligence, wisdom, charisma, etc. of its original form). While it is up to you to decide if the eye would qualify for purposes of your spell component, I probably would rule the tactic would not work to begin with.

However, they decided to avoid that by casting the divination before the animal dies, or just leave the animal a giant eagle.

Not sure how it would remain a giant eagle after the duration of the polymorph spell expired.

As an aside, what level is your party? If they are higher in level, I would not see a problem giving them a scroll of regeneration as a reward for completing the divination quest, or perhaps the PCs could embark on a subquest for a high level druid who will offer to heal the eagle/animal as a reward.
Kyaran
03-22-07, 10:24 PM From alter self, which polymorph uses as a base:Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

I say they should focus on acquiring the eye of a roc, as they should have fewer qualms about harming an Int 2 animal. Maybe see if your exotic animal trainer has a young roc (that's fewer than 18 HD) or simply have that kind of eye be available at Ye Olde Componente Shoppe?

Either way, XP is in order for avoiding harm to an intelligent creature. :)
Warric
03-22-07, 10:35 PM Why does the eye have to be removed from the eagle? What if they could somehow use the eagle's eye while it remained in the eagle's eye socket? Perhaps a spellcraft check or knowledge (arcana) check to see if it is possible? Would make for a great roleplaying encounter as well... for instance, they'ed have to visit a great eagle and convince it to help through diplomacy whenever they wanted to cast the spell.
Tegemea
03-23-07, 12:35 AM ooooo! good call kyaran .. hadn't looked in the alter self spell description for rules on separating the eye from the body. that shoots their new plan in the foot pretty thoroughly.

the reason no one has touched the roc idea yet is because the group is 4 2nd or 3rd level characters. They are still basically working from the base of a monastery, performing tasks and missions leading into the larger meat of the campaign, which is why they are dealing with getting a component for a spell that is rather out of their reach.

I like the idea of using a live eagle, too. that would be fun, and i bet it would satisfy everyone... thanks for the ideas.. would still love to hear more, of course.
Someone
03-23-07, 12:59 AM Spell component sellers don't necessarily have to slaughter the animals. Giant eagles do die of old age or other "natural" causes, so maybe somebody comes along and preserves a few of their organs. Otherwise, they would just be left for the scavengers.

As an aside, I presume this is to cast the spell scrying? That doesn't need the eye of a giant eagle- the eye of a mundane hawk or eagle will suffice. And I would say an eye of any bird of prey, or even anything with a +8 racial bonus to Spot checks would do. Though that last bit is a houserule...
Fireclave
03-23-07, 01:17 AM Using a live eagle wouldn't be any more humane. Spell components are consumed by the spell. The net result would still be an bird with an missing eye.

If the spell in question is Scrying, the eye doesn't need to come from a giant eagle. A normal hawk or eagle will surfice. Actually, if the caster is not arcane caster, no material component is needed. The scrying spell specifically states that the material components are arcane components. Divine casters simply need a divine focus.

If the caster of the spell is going to be a PC, now might be a good time to consider taking Eschew Material Components.
Tegemea
03-23-07, 09:24 AM well, the component is house-ruled, for the sake of having this little sidebar adventure. I figured that a spell on the order of greater scrying would need above-average components compared to a normal scrying spell. However, the divination itself is slightly non-spell specific (the only reason it doesn't bother me in this case is because its being cast by an NPC and is basically just a means to release plot information to the PCs). if it were a straight scrying spell, they would need to be able to cast true seeing through it, or be more clever about their detections, i guess. Instead, I am planning it to give them information more on the lines of a locate spell, with more detail than locate creature, but not quite as much as discern location.
runestar
03-23-07, 10:00 AM Technically, if the component costs less than 1gp, a spell component pouch will provide it...:D
DreadArchon
03-23-07, 05:54 PM Technically, if the component costs less than 1gp, a spell component pouch will provide it...:D
Yes. So, although using your own component pouches would violate your house-ruled sidequest, the characters should still be able to just go out and buy a new pouch.
runestar
03-23-07, 11:18 PM You are now on a quest to procure a spell component pouch and obtain the eagle's eye contained within...

Now, go forth and conquer!!! :D
CelestialBarbarian
03-23-07, 11:30 PM You are now on a quest to procure a spell component pouch and obtain the eagle's eye contained within...

Now, go forth and conquer!!! :D

:heehee You are so funny, rune! :D
tos_shai_hulud
04-01-07, 11:29 PM Another option would be find an alternate spell component. Just because the eye of a Giant Eagle is supposed to be required doesn't make it the only component that could be used. I would allow the party to perform magical research to see if an alternate component could be used. If they went through the trouble of trying to find one, I would rule that one existed. Perhaps an enchanted gem that is currently in the possession of a necromancer that lives on the outskirts of town. The local village idiot has seen it when he was attacked by the necromancer's skeletons. And what a coincidence, it just happens to work as a viable substitute for a giant eagle's eye.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tegemea 03-22-07, 02:07 PM	alright, so I've got a great group of players, to even come up with this issue, so far as i'm concerned. So its clear, the dominant alignment in the group is Lawful Good, and certainly good overall. The divination they are trying to have cast (by an NPC) needs a spell component, the eye of a giant eagle or a roc. I decided that since they are relatively low level, obtaining the somewhat special spell component themselves could be a good side-quest and i could let it save them some money on the spell. Their first step was to go to a sage and try to figure out where they could find giant eagles. Upon learning that giant eagles are sentient, noble creatures, some role-play arguments got going about how an eye could be ethically obtained. A place to buy spell components was the first suggestion, but i'll admit it, after seeing the great role-play discussion that had already started, i didn't want to give it to them that easily. Instead i gave them the idea through an NPC that they could go to this (quickly created) exotic animal trainer who mostly raised animals to battle in a colliseum-type arena, but would also sell creatures as mounts. The PCs went there, saw a giant eagle in captivity, and couldn't deal with taking its eye or killing it. Anyway, everyone was getting really into it by this point, and someone had the following idea: bring the NPC wizard a random animal. for best ethical results, a dying animal. Pay a little extra to have the wizard polymorph the animal into a giant eagle (a magical beast under the HD limit, so legit as far as i can tell). Take out an eye, heal the giant eagle, perform the divination, and put the animal/giant eagle down, or release it for a new lease on life as a one-eyed giant eagle. any reason why it shouldn't work? at first they were going on the question of would the eye remain a giant eagle eye if removed from the body, which would revert to animal form if killed. However, they decided to avoid that by casting the divination before the animal dies, or just leave the animal a giant eagle. thoughts welcome.
orionm42 03-22-07, 03:03 PM	at first they were going on the question of would the eye remain a giant eagle eye if removed from the body, which would revert to animal form if killed... I would say the eye would revert to original form. Note this from the description of polymorph... If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. With that said, a polymorphed giant eagle is not a “true” giant eagle in all respects (remember, it retains the intelligence, wisdom, charisma, etc. of its original form). While it is up to you to decide if the eye would qualify for purposes of your spell component, I probably would rule the tactic would not work to begin with. However, they decided to avoid that by casting the divination before the animal dies, or just leave the animal a giant eagle. Not sure how it would remain a giant eagle after the duration of the polymorph spell expired. As an aside, what level is your party? If they are higher in level, I would not see a problem giving them a scroll of regeneration as a reward for completing the divination quest, or perhaps the PCs could embark on a subquest for a high level druid who will offer to heal the eagle/animal as a reward.
Kyaran 03-22-07, 10:24 PM	From alter self, which polymorph uses as a base:Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. I say they should focus on acquiring the eye of a roc, as they should have fewer qualms about harming an Int 2 animal. Maybe see if your exotic animal trainer has a young roc (that's fewer than 18 HD) or simply have that kind of eye be available at Ye Olde Componente Shoppe? Either way, XP is in order for avoiding harm to an intelligent creature. :)
Warric 03-22-07, 10:35 PM	Why does the eye have to be removed from the eagle? What if they could somehow use the eagle's eye while it remained in the eagle's eye socket? Perhaps a spellcraft check or knowledge (arcana) check to see if it is possible? Would make for a great roleplaying encounter as well... for instance, they'ed have to visit a great eagle and convince it to help through diplomacy whenever they wanted to cast the spell.
Tegemea 03-23-07, 12:35 AM	ooooo! good call kyaran .. hadn't looked in the alter self spell description for rules on separating the eye from the body. that shoots their new plan in the foot pretty thoroughly. the reason no one has touched the roc idea yet is because the group is 4 2nd or 3rd level characters. They are still basically working from the base of a monastery, performing tasks and missions leading into the larger meat of the campaign, which is why they are dealing with getting a component for a spell that is rather out of their reach. I like the idea of using a live eagle, too. that would be fun, and i bet it would satisfy everyone... thanks for the ideas.. would still love to hear more, of course.
Someone 03-23-07, 12:59 AM	Spell component sellers don't necessarily have to slaughter the animals. Giant eagles do die of old age or other "natural" causes, so maybe somebody comes along and preserves a few of their organs. Otherwise, they would just be left for the scavengers. As an aside, I presume this is to cast the spell scrying? That doesn't need the eye of a giant eagle- the eye of a mundane hawk or eagle will suffice. And I would say an eye of any bird of prey, or even anything with a +8 racial bonus to Spot checks would do. Though that last bit is a houserule...
Fireclave 03-23-07, 01:17 AM	Using a live eagle wouldn't be any more humane. Spell components are consumed by the spell. The net result would still be an bird with an missing eye. If the spell in question is Scrying, the eye doesn't need to come from a giant eagle. A normal hawk or eagle will surfice. Actually, if the caster is not arcane caster, no material component is needed. The scrying spell specifically states that the material components are arcane components. Divine casters simply need a divine focus. If the caster of the spell is going to be a PC, now might be a good time to consider taking Eschew Material Components.
Tegemea 03-23-07, 09:24 AM	well, the component is house-ruled, for the sake of having this little sidebar adventure. I figured that a spell on the order of greater scrying would need above-average components compared to a normal scrying spell. However, the divination itself is slightly non-spell specific (the only reason it doesn't bother me in this case is because its being cast by an NPC and is basically just a means to release plot information to the PCs). if it were a straight scrying spell, they would need to be able to cast true seeing through it, or be more clever about their detections, i guess. Instead, I am planning it to give them information more on the lines of a locate spell, with more detail than locate creature, but not quite as much as discern location.
runestar 03-23-07, 10:00 AM	Technically, if the component costs less than 1gp, a spell component pouch will provide it...:D
DreadArchon 03-23-07, 05:54 PM	Technically, if the component costs less than 1gp, a spell component pouch will provide it...:D Yes. So, although using your own component pouches would violate your house-ruled sidequest, the characters should still be able to just go out and buy a new pouch.
runestar 03-23-07, 11:18 PM	You are now on a quest to procure a spell component pouch and obtain the eagle's eye contained within... Now, go forth and conquer!!! :D
CelestialBarbarian 03-23-07, 11:30 PM	You are now on a quest to procure a spell component pouch and obtain the eagle's eye contained within... Now, go forth and conquer!!! :D :heehee You are so funny, rune! :D
tos_shai_hulud 04-01-07, 11:29 PM	Another option would be find an alternate spell component. Just because the eye of a Giant Eagle is supposed to be required doesn't make it the only component that could be used. I would allow the party to perform magical research to see if an alternate component could be used. If they went through the trouble of trying to find one, I would rule that one existed. Perhaps an enchanted gem that is currently in the possession of a necromancer that lives on the outskirts of town. The local village idiot has seen it when he was attacked by the necromancer's skeletons. And what a coincidence, it just happens to work as a viable substitute for a giant eagle's eye.