Old rule books [Archive] - Wizards Community

Old rule books [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_Diomedes
03-24-07, 01:17 PM I have enjoyed playing D&D as a player with a couple groups of people and am thinking about getting my family into it. This would mean playing as DM and also acquiring some rule books.

What are the major differences between the current editions and the 2nd Edition AD&D books that I have stashed away somewhere?

If I download adventures written for 3.5, will things mess up when we get down to playing?
Merestil Haye
03-24-07, 01:41 PM I have enjoyed playing D&D as a player with a couple groups of people and am thinking about getting my family into it. This would mean playing as DM and also acquiring some rule books.

What are the major differences between the current editions and the 2nd Edition AD&D books that I have stashed away somewhere?

If I download adventures written for 3.5, will things mess up when we get down to playing?The third edition of the game introduced some major changes to the way things work.

You still have the good old races - stout Dwarves, nimble Elves and so on. Different races have strengths and weaknesses. You still have classes, and the classes are what you might expect. Characters still have the same six abilities, and the classes need what you might think. Fighters are strong, wizards clever, clerics wise and rogues nimble. But...

The entire Weapon / Nonweapon proficiency system is gone. Characters instead get skills (examples include Climb, Hide and Knowledge (Religion)). They also get "feats" that allow them to do new things, or get better at things they already do. Weapons aand armour are classified into groups. Proficiency can be gained by spending feats, or by taking levels in a class. A Fighter (for instance) is proficient with all light, medium and heavy armours, light, heavy and tower shields, and all simple or martial weapons. A Wizard, on the other hand, is proficient in a few weapons (all of them simple).

There are no restrictions on race and class choices.

AC now increases as armour improves. THAC0 has been replaced by a Base Attack Bonus, which classes improve at different rates. Both attack and saving throw bonuses are "cumulative" that is a multiclass character gets the benefit of his attack and saving throw bonuses in all classes, rather than just the best result.

The magic and saving throw system is a lot simpler.

Monsters are "built" the same way as characters, and it's quite easy to make that Orc over there an orc with fighter or barbarian levels.

WotC allow others to reproduce the game rules, except for certain sections that they label "product identity" and some sections to do with character creation. Several sites online make these rules available. My preferred one is here (http://www.d20srd.org). Have a poke around and ask questions.

I'd at least look at the new rules before downloading adventures and stuff. If possible buy the three main books. That'll get you started, and you can add more books later if you want.
SALDAR
03-24-07, 04:25 PM I have enjoyed playing D&D as a player with a couple groups of people and am thinking about getting my family into it. This would mean playing as DM and also acquiring some rule books.

What are the major differences between the current editions and the 2nd Edition AD&D books that I have stashed away somewhere?

If I download adventures written for 3.5, will things mess up when we get down to playing?

Basically, 3.x is a complete rewrite of the rules system. Going from 1st to 2nd edition was simple as the game mechanics are pretty much identical with only minor changes. It's like going from a Toyota to a Chevy, they are both cars but with minor cosmetic differences. Going from 2nd to 3rd edition, not so easy. It's like knowing how to drive a car and then trying to fly a plane with that knowledge.

As Merestil Haye suggests, get the three core books: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual.
sontefir
03-24-07, 04:49 PM It's like knowing how to drive a car and then trying to fly a plane with that knowledge.

I didn't find the transition from 2 to 3.5 to be all THAT difficult. Transitioning can be hard if you've really learned a system.

I find 3.5 to be very rewarding and deep, but if you've fallen in love with 2.0, use it! You won't find much help with rules here, but I'm sure there are at least a few oldbies around here who could help with any questions once and a while.

When I find something that works, I stick to it, and I never liked it when someone told me I HAD to upgrade or whatever. You know what? Devil May Cry the original is still the best game in the series, and all those people who told me to try DMC3 can bite me. The original was waaaay better.

Now I kinda want to start an AD&D campaign. Thanks a lot, jerk.
_Diomedes
03-24-07, 06:22 PM Thanks for all your replies.

I am on the verge of ordering... but can I 'get away' with only ordering a DM's guide @ 3.5 and a keep the player's handbook @ 2nd Edition?

The adventures (dl'ed PDFs) seem to include all the necessary monster information so why get a monster book? I guess if I am to write my own stories to glue the downloaded adventures together then I'll need some monstrous insight - but thanks to Merestil I have an online resource for that!
Merestil Haye
03-24-07, 07:30 PM Thanks for all your replies.

I am on the verge of ordering... but can I 'get away' with only ordering a DM's guide @ 3.5 and a keep the player's handbook @ 2nd Edition?Unquestionably you need the PHB.

To name the first area that comes to mind : all the character class advancement tables are thrown away and replaced with one table. That table is in the PHB, but not the SRD (it's not open game content and is not licensed for reprinting.) You can't do without a PHB, trust me.

The adventures (dl'ed PDFs) seem to include all the necessary monster information so why get a monster book? I guess if I am to write my own stories to glue the downloaded adventures together then I'll need some monstrous insight - but thanks to Merestil I have an online resource for that!In published adventures, you will find many monsters just come with a one line reference telling you the hit points and the page in the MM. Also some monsters don't appear in the SRD - the Beholder is one - because they too are not Open Game Content. Additionally, if you want to run an impromptu encounter, how are you going to chose the monster?

That being said, you probably can get by without a MM more easily than the other two.
Onikani
03-24-07, 08:05 PM i agree:

PHB is ESSENTIAL. It explains the new combat system which got the biggest overhaul.

DMG - if you already know how to dm, use your prior knowledge plus the stuff in the PHB and the SRD. You're good to go.

MM - this could either be bought after a DGM or before, depending on how comfy you feel without the DMG.
Again, most of the basic monsters are in teh SRD, and also conveniently printed in the most of the modules.

Definately definately get teh PHB first.

In fact you may want to look into the "Basic Game" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/966470000), it does a lovely job of describing and teaching play to new players and DM's. (and it even comes with some spiffy map tiles and minis too)

Then go from there.
:)
Neutronium_Dragon
03-24-07, 08:29 PM I agree with the above posters: You absolutely do need the PHB if you want to use the 3.5E system.

I would consider the DMG as an essential if you're new to 3.5E as well. Not only did many of the mechanics fundamentals change, but so did the philosophy and methodology of the game and of DMing it. You'll end up with problems if you try to use the "2E mindset" in a 3E game.

The MM is optional, though. The SRD has pretty much everything you need, except for a few iconic creatures that you can probably do without. Still, the way that monsters work mechanically is completely different too, and some of them have undergone paradigm shifts of various sorts.
Marcus Majarra
03-25-07, 05:53 PM I'd like to add that if you wish to become familiar with the d20 system (which oversees 3.5 D&D), you can do so by consulting the system reference document. It includes much of the system content of the PHB, DMG, MM, and even the XPH, as well as the Epic Level Handbook. You can view it at the following links:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
http://www.d20srd.com
Sildatorak
03-25-07, 07:31 PM If you're not in a big rush to get art, you can definitely skip on the MM. You'll basically be missing out on only a handful of monsters

beholders
displacer beasts
illithids
yuan-ti

What others am I forgetting that are product identity?
_Diomedes
03-25-07, 08:36 PM I am now the proud owner of the 3.5 edition DM's guide and player's handbook.

I'm not too bothered about the MM as online resources seem sufficient.

Hours after buying the books, however, I hear from my dad that my three sisters won't be home at the same time (We're all uni students but have different commitments, locations etc). So that's five players down to three counting the 'rents... :(
Nom
03-27-07, 12:11 AM Belated, but ...DMG - if you already know how to dm, use your prior knowledge plus the stuff in the PHB and the SRD. You're good to go.Except for tangential little bits of advice like the entire XP award system, how to set DCs in 3rd ed, how to adjudicate rounds and combat in 3rd ed, ... . WotC have quite deliberately set things up so that it's easy to write an adventure using entirely the SRD but almost impossible to actually play a game without the PH and DMG.
Merestil Haye
03-27-07, 07:44 AM I am now the proud owner of the 3.5 edition DM's guide and player's handbook.

I'm not too bothered about the MM as online resources seem sufficient.

Hours after buying the books, however, I hear from my dad that my three sisters won't be home at the same time (We're all uni students but have different commitments, locations etc). So that's five players down to three counting the 'rents... :(Have all your sisters generate characters anyway, and that way they all have someone to play if they happen to be around. Also consider generating a simple NPC that can join the party - either a meatshield or a cleric-in-a-box. The NPC should not make any decisions for the party though -that's the player's job.

One thing about the xp system is that it is deliberately designed so that it will close the gap between characters of disparate levels. Not only do lower-level characters need less to level up, they get more. If there's a 2-level difference, the lower level character should receive twice as much as the higher level for the same challenge (1st and 3rd level excepted).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_Diomedes 03-24-07, 01:17 PM	I have enjoyed playing D&D as a player with a couple groups of people and am thinking about getting my family into it. This would mean playing as DM and also acquiring some rule books. What are the major differences between the current editions and the 2nd Edition AD&D books that I have stashed away somewhere? If I download adventures written for 3.5, will things mess up when we get down to playing?
Merestil Haye 03-24-07, 01:41 PM	I have enjoyed playing D&D as a player with a couple groups of people and am thinking about getting my family into it. This would mean playing as DM and also acquiring some rule books. What are the major differences between the current editions and the 2nd Edition AD&D books that I have stashed away somewhere? If I download adventures written for 3.5, will things mess up when we get down to playing?The third edition of the game introduced some major changes to the way things work. You still have the good old races - stout Dwarves, nimble Elves and so on. Different races have strengths and weaknesses. You still have classes, and the classes are what you might expect. Characters still have the same six abilities, and the classes need what you might think. Fighters are strong, wizards clever, clerics wise and rogues nimble. But... The entire Weapon / Nonweapon proficiency system is gone. Characters instead get skills (examples include Climb, Hide and Knowledge (Religion)). They also get "feats" that allow them to do new things, or get better at things they already do. Weapons aand armour are classified into groups. Proficiency can be gained by spending feats, or by taking levels in a class. A Fighter (for instance) is proficient with all light, medium and heavy armours, light, heavy and tower shields, and all simple or martial weapons. A Wizard, on the other hand, is proficient in a few weapons (all of them simple). There are no restrictions on race and class choices. AC now increases as armour improves. THAC0 has been replaced by a Base Attack Bonus, which classes improve at different rates. Both attack and saving throw bonuses are "cumulative" that is a multiclass character gets the benefit of his attack and saving throw bonuses in all classes, rather than just the best result. The magic and saving throw system is a lot simpler. Monsters are "built" the same way as characters, and it's quite easy to make that Orc over there an orc with fighter or barbarian levels. WotC allow others to reproduce the game rules, except for certain sections that they label "product identity" and some sections to do with character creation. Several sites online make these rules available. My preferred one is here (http://www.d20srd.org). Have a poke around and ask questions. I'd at least look at the new rules before downloading adventures and stuff. If possible buy the three main books. That'll get you started, and you can add more books later if you want.
SALDAR 03-24-07, 04:25 PM	I have enjoyed playing D&D as a player with a couple groups of people and am thinking about getting my family into it. This would mean playing as DM and also acquiring some rule books. What are the major differences between the current editions and the 2nd Edition AD&D books that I have stashed away somewhere? If I download adventures written for 3.5, will things mess up when we get down to playing? Basically, 3.x is a complete rewrite of the rules system. Going from 1st to 2nd edition was simple as the game mechanics are pretty much identical with only minor changes. It's like going from a Toyota to a Chevy, they are both cars but with minor cosmetic differences. Going from 2nd to 3rd edition, not so easy. It's like knowing how to drive a car and then trying to fly a plane with that knowledge. As Merestil Haye suggests, get the three core books: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual.
sontefir 03-24-07, 04:49 PM	It's like knowing how to drive a car and then trying to fly a plane with that knowledge. I didn't find the transition from 2 to 3.5 to be all THAT difficult. Transitioning can be hard if you've really learned a system. I find 3.5 to be very rewarding and deep, but if you've fallen in love with 2.0, use it! You won't find much help with rules here, but I'm sure there are at least a few oldbies around here who could help with any questions once and a while. When I find something that works, I stick to it, and I never liked it when someone told me I HAD to upgrade or whatever. You know what? Devil May Cry the original is still the best game in the series, and all those people who told me to try DMC3 can bite me. The original was waaaay better. Now I kinda want to start an AD&D campaign. Thanks a lot, jerk.
_Diomedes 03-24-07, 06:22 PM	Thanks for all your replies. I am on the verge of ordering... but can I 'get away' with only ordering a DM's guide @ 3.5 and a keep the player's handbook @ 2nd Edition? The adventures (dl'ed PDFs) seem to include all the necessary monster information so why get a monster book? I guess if I am to write my own stories to glue the downloaded adventures together then I'll need some monstrous insight - but thanks to Merestil I have an online resource for that!
Merestil Haye 03-24-07, 07:30 PM	Thanks for all your replies. I am on the verge of ordering... but can I 'get away' with only ordering a DM's guide @ 3.5 and a keep the player's handbook @ 2nd Edition?Unquestionably you need the PHB. To name the first area that comes to mind : all the character class advancement tables are thrown away and replaced with one table. That table is in the PHB, but not the SRD (it's not open game content and is not licensed for reprinting.) You can't do without a PHB, trust me. The adventures (dl'ed PDFs) seem to include all the necessary monster information so why get a monster book? I guess if I am to write my own stories to glue the downloaded adventures together then I'll need some monstrous insight - but thanks to Merestil I have an online resource for that!In published adventures, you will find many monsters just come with a one line reference telling you the hit points and the page in the MM. Also some monsters don't appear in the SRD - the Beholder is one - because they too are not Open Game Content. Additionally, if you want to run an impromptu encounter, how are you going to chose the monster? That being said, you probably can get by without a MM more easily than the other two.
Onikani 03-24-07, 08:05 PM	i agree: PHB is ESSENTIAL. It explains the new combat system which got the biggest overhaul. DMG - if you already know how to dm, use your prior knowledge plus the stuff in the PHB and the SRD. You're good to go. MM - this could either be bought after a DGM or before, depending on how comfy you feel without the DMG. Again, most of the basic monsters are in teh SRD, and also conveniently printed in the most of the modules. Definately definately get teh PHB first. In fact you may want to look into the "Basic Game" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/966470000), it does a lovely job of describing and teaching play to new players and DM's. (and it even comes with some spiffy map tiles and minis too) Then go from there. :)
Neutronium_Dragon 03-24-07, 08:29 PM	I agree with the above posters: You absolutely do need the PHB if you want to use the 3.5E system. I would consider the DMG as an essential if you're new to 3.5E as well. Not only did many of the mechanics fundamentals change, but so did the philosophy and methodology of the game and of DMing it. You'll end up with problems if you try to use the "2E mindset" in a 3E game. The MM is optional, though. The SRD has pretty much everything you need, except for a few iconic creatures that you can probably do without. Still, the way that monsters work mechanically is completely different too, and some of them have undergone paradigm shifts of various sorts.
Marcus Majarra 03-25-07, 05:53 PM	I'd like to add that if you wish to become familiar with the d20 system (which oversees 3.5 D&D), you can do so by consulting the system reference document. It includes much of the system content of the PHB, DMG, MM, and even the XPH, as well as the Epic Level Handbook. You can view it at the following links: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 http://www.d20srd.com
Sildatorak 03-25-07, 07:31 PM	If you're not in a big rush to get art, you can definitely skip on the MM. You'll basically be missing out on only a handful of monsters beholders displacer beasts illithids yuan-ti What others am I forgetting that are product identity?
_Diomedes 03-25-07, 08:36 PM	I am now the proud owner of the 3.5 edition DM's guide and player's handbook. I'm not too bothered about the MM as online resources seem sufficient. Hours after buying the books, however, I hear from my dad that my three sisters won't be home at the same time (We're all uni students but have different commitments, locations etc). So that's five players down to three counting the 'rents... :(
Nom 03-27-07, 12:11 AM	Belated, but ...DMG - if you already know how to dm, use your prior knowledge plus the stuff in the PHB and the SRD. You're good to go.Except for tangential little bits of advice like the entire XP award system, how to set DCs in 3rd ed, how to adjudicate rounds and combat in 3rd ed, ... . WotC have quite deliberately set things up so that it's easy to write an adventure using entirely the SRD but almost impossible to actually play a game without the PH and DMG.
Merestil Haye 03-27-07, 07:44 AM	I am now the proud owner of the 3.5 edition DM's guide and player's handbook. I'm not too bothered about the MM as online resources seem sufficient. Hours after buying the books, however, I hear from my dad that my three sisters won't be home at the same time (We're all uni students but have different commitments, locations etc). So that's five players down to three counting the 'rents... :(Have all your sisters generate characters anyway, and that way they all have someone to play if they happen to be around. Also consider generating a simple NPC that can join the party - either a meatshield or a cleric-in-a-box. The NPC should not make any decisions for the party though -that's the player's job. One thing about the xp system is that it is deliberately designed so that it will close the gap between characters of disparate levels. Not only do lower-level characters need less to level up, they get more. If there's a 2-level difference, the lower level character should receive twice as much as the higher level for the same challenge (1st and 3rd level excepted).