Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ebywyld 09-12-07, 02:00 AM	Hey, I'm having trouble with a player in my campaign. He has the Gloves of Arrow Snaring, and the following happened: FIRST round of combat: A minotaur readies a Giant sized Composite Long Bow to shoot him if he casts a spell. He did so, and the minotaur hit him, dealing 10 pts of damage. He failed concentration, and lost the spell. However, he complained to me, saying that even though the spell (Sleet Storm, 3rd level) requires a somatic component, he should still catch the giant sized arrow and continue with the spell! He also has a buckler on his hand, but I figured that didn't matter, as they say you can use weapons with bucklers. Now keep in mind, this is a Player vs Player fight, so both are all over my case. It says that "somatic requires AT LEAST one hand" and the gloves ALSO require "at least" one hand. How do I make a ruling, and not feel like an ass about it? The mage player is a bit of a power-gamer I fear, but I don't want to penalize him if I shouldn't. Also, this is important to the minotaur's character, as he will be at the mage's mercy if he DOESN'T disrupt the spell! Help please...
PenderGrass 09-12-07, 03:13 AM	The minotaur's arrow is caught, so long as the arrow is not considered "massively large." Snaring an arrow is considered to be a Not An Action action. Essentially, it takes no time at all to perform. Since they give a spear as an example, an arrow from a large composite long bow (maybe huge, but doubtful) would be maximum, IMHO. Of course, all that would be the case if the target were using the buckler in a standard fashion (i.e., strapped to the forearm). If the target did in fact have the buckler in his hand, then the target could still snare the arrow, but would be forced to use a free action to drop the arrow or buckler to complete the spell. Would that free action be enough to interfere with the casting? Unfortunately, there is no real clear-cut answer. Free actions do consume a very small amount of time in a round. Is that time enough to disrupt the spell? Only the DM can make that call. Typically in a situation like that, it is best to give it a 50/50 chance and roll the die in the open, allowing one player or the other to declare whether they would like even or odd. Also, typically in a situation where it is a player vs. player, it might be best for the DM to leave the table and go get a pizza and some beer and return after the stupidity ends. :dragon: ****
ebywyld 09-12-07, 03:19 AM	Thank you for the advice. The item in question were the GLOVES of arrow snaring, but I see your point. The problem I ran into is, at what point does a GM, just say "This is ridiculous!" I mean, his first action in combat is getting pegged by a gigantic arrow shot by a minotaur with 29 strength, and he simply catches the giant arrow, ignores it, and CONTINUES moving his hands for the spell!?! At that point I feel you're right, I just need a pizza, some beer, and a relaxing night! I think I'm just going to make the ruling that if a spell has a somatic component, and it is level 3 or higher, it requires both hands to cast. If only one is eligible, it gives a base 50% chance to fail. Is that unbalanced? Maybe, but so is a Warmage in a game that only allows base classes from the PHB/DMG! Thanks again, PenderGrass...
Kouk 09-12-07, 04:17 AM	Thank you for the advice. The item in question were the GLOVES of arrow snaring, but I see your point. The problem I ran into is, at what point does a GM, just say "This is ridiculous!" I mean, his first action in combat is getting pegged by a gigantic arrow shot by a minotaur with 29 strength, and he simply catches the giant arrow, ignores it, and CONTINUES moving his hands for the spell!?! At that point I feel you're right, I just need a pizza, some beer, and a relaxing night! I think I'm just going to make the ruling that if a spell has a somatic component, and it is level 3 or higher, it requires both hands to cast. If only one is eligible, it gives a base 50% chance to fail. Is that unbalanced? Maybe, but so is a Warmage in a game that only allows base classes from the PHB/DMG! Thanks again, PenderGrass... No, requiring both hands is unbalanced. The rules clearly state "at least" one hand - wizards could carry a staff in one hand, a wand, a potion, a weapon, whatever they want as long as they have one free hand. Bucklers do not block the use of the hand (but they might impose an arcane spell failure chance depending on the materials and enchantments of the item). You allowed him to have Gloves of Arrow Snaring, which has the sole purpose of stopping arrows as per the Snatch Arrows feat. That feat makes no distinction based on size unless it is "unusually massive" like a boulder - which really couldn't be held in one hand (by most creatures) let alone caught. The description of the item specifically calls out it needs just one hand. I don't know why you are having a problem with him using the item he has for its intended purpose unless you were just secretly hoping his character would lose. If a minotaur with a bow fights a spellcaster, he'd better count on his first shot killing that spellcaster. That is the nature of the game, spellcasters are dangerous. Rather than the wizard being a power gamer, the player with the minotaur is making a sub-optimal choice by playing that race. It is only natural that he has trouble if he chooses to fight with a wizard "fair and square", at range, out in the open.
ebywyld 09-12-07, 04:55 AM	Yes, but what you ARENT taking into account is the lack of info on spellcasting with somatic components. I mean, the gloves PER the PHB act on their own, requiring no thought from the user. This means if a user is casting a spell, that takes AT LEAST one hand to operate, who is to say that the hand isn't the one that the spell needs? Wouldn't a 50% base fail then make sense? Because if the hand you're casting with automatically shoots out to snag the arrow, then you lose your spell. Thoughts?
Nytmare 09-12-07, 06:43 AM	You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention... I'd say that snaring an arrow while trying to cast a spell would count as a distraction, but I'd make the DC pretty low. 5 or 10 at most.
ebywyld 09-12-07, 08:36 AM	Alright, well what about this: The spell has a somatic requirement right? One hand down. Next, the spell ALSO has a material component. How is that not two hands? The somatic component is "A measured and precise movement of the hand". So the other hand snags the material components out of it's pouch, and uses them, correct? Basically I'm asking for this because I don't want it to get 'mucky' in my game. I made the mistake of allowing a warmage in the first place, but until he dies, stops gaming, etc. I don't want to treat him unfairly. If it IS right that he shouldn't be affected at all, despite all the things listed above, then I want to correct it.
Lanathan 09-12-07, 09:32 AM	In my opinion, the warmage should have been able to pull off the spell with little to no difficulty because he is prepared for this type of situation. He uses one hand to pull his material components from his spell pouch(a free action). The arrow is then shot at him and his other hand snares arrow(another free action). Then the first hand uses the material components together with the somatic in the spell casting(his standard action). Now the warmage cannot keep that up for long really, he can only catch one arrow a round and the gloves are only usable twice per day. There is that 5% arcane spell failure chance from the buckler unless that is negated for some reason, otherwise I dont really believe it would be all that distracting since the warmage is prepared for exactly this type of encounter.
Merestil Haye 09-12-07, 10:47 AM	The rules say that the character needs one hand free to provide somatic components. The buckler does not occupy the hand of the arm it is worn on, or restrict its use in any way. If it did it would be inferior to a light shield, which costs less. Thus the mage can be wearing the Glove on the same hand as the buckler. The rules seem to envision that the hand performing the gestures can also be holding the material components at the same time. Thus the mage should not be interrupted by the minotaur firing an arrow at it.
perdera 09-12-07, 10:58 AM	As others have said I think it's a perfectly normal action. I'd probably cause a DC 10 (maybe + Spell Level too, I'm a fan of higher level spells being more intricate/complicated to complete) Concentration check if a projectile is snagged during spellcasting--a pretty trivial check, as it should be. There is most definitely some level of distraction going on there, so some sort of Concentration check should be required.
ebywyld 09-12-07, 11:07 AM	Excellent advice guys, and the more answers, the better! Now, I'm going to go 'give back' to the community and give my answers to some easier questions!
Phrennzy 09-12-07, 12:10 PM	IMO, while I agree with everyone's explanation here, it is also important to note when the mage objected. Only after damage was done, and the concentration check failed, and the spell lose, did he pipe up about his glove. I have a rule at my table, a "Too Late" rule. It goes hand in hand with "Know your Character" rule. It works both ways, so that when I forget that the dragon is resistant to fire, I don't retroactively ignore the fire damage. The game goes a lot smoother that way. Mage should have remembered he had the glove and announced he was catching the arrow before making the concentration check. If he did announce he was catching the arrow, there is no damage and no lost spell. No concentration check needed, no spell interruption.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-12-07, 04:01 PM	I think I'm just going to make the ruling that if a spell has a somatic component, and it is level 3 or higher, it requires both hands to cast.Bad idea because it causes other problmes. No heavy shield for you, Mr. Cleric. No holding a wand/staff/dagger while casting. I agree with Merestil. You need one hand free to make somatic gestures. You need one hand free to use gloves of arrow snaring. As long as he has got at least two hands no problem. I don't think it would be any more distracting than if he blocked it with the buckler. Would you cause any caster to make a concentration check if the attack missed merely because of their shield AC? The mage is gonna pwn the Minotaur; he should have used Manyshot.
Kouk 09-12-07, 06:10 PM	The mage is gonna pwn the Minotaur; he should have used Manyshot. No, he should have A. Charged, or B. Hidden, preferably blocking all line of effect.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-12-07, 06:38 PM	No, he should have A. Charged, or B. Hidden, preferably blocking all line of effect.Point taken. I was just thinking of readying to disrupt. To hijack the thread a moment, I was thinking instead of charging, it might actually be better to move adjacent (5') because if you charge you have to stop 10' away. Since you are adjacent a mage wouldn't be able to 5 foot-step and shoot. He would either have to cast defensive or risk the AoO with the Gore Attack. You could even shoot and move.
Crawdaddy75 09-12-07, 07:04 PM	Left and right hand has gloves Left hand has buckler on it's arm. Right hand reaches in pouch to grab component. "rules don't cover whether it has to be a seperate hand for somatic. It may be a bat wing you have to wave around for the somatic with the same hand that the bat wing is in. No ones knows so both can be the same hand. In this case the right hand." Arcane spell failure % for buckler. Minotaur shoots an arrow. Left hand reaches out to deflect/grab arrow if it would have delt damage. Concentration check "technically if the guy didn't have the gloves damage would have been delt to him. Deflecting/snatching replaces damage. Concentration check passes, spell goes off.
Sildatorak 09-12-07, 07:47 PM	It works both ways, so that when I forget that the dragon is resistant to fire, I don't retroactively ignore the fire damage. The game goes a lot smoother that way.As usual, Phrennzy is correct. We have a saying in my group, "retroactive go-backsies, Aaron goes down." It refers to a disastrous fight where I remembered half a round late that the tank needed to save vs. the drow poison he had been hit with. I made the bad DM call of trying to figure out what would have happened if he had failed his save on his turn, and it almost ended up being a TPK.