Polymorph, outsiders and subtypes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Polymorph, outsiders and subtypes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
deduke
12-14-07, 09:24 AM Hello all,

There is a question that has been bothering me for quite a while and I hope you can help me find an answer to it. There is a level 12 character that is currently an outsider, he has the ability to cast the polymorph spell and can thus change into an outsider, so he chooses to become an Astral deva. The problem comes from the following sentence.

The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

This means he gains the following types: Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good)
The question is about the angel subtype. again from the SRD:

Angel Traits: An angel possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
* Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification.
* Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.
* +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.

* Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel’s HD). This aura can be dispelled, but the angel can create it again as a free action on its next turn. (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an angel’s statistics block.)

*Tongues (Su): All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active.

The main problem is of course the protective aura, the question is does the character gets this aura.

The main contradiction is from the polymorph spell again from the SRD:

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

I hope you can tell me if the character gains the Protective aura and tongues, I personally think the character gets those abilities since it gains the type and the polymorph wording is about specific supernatural and spell-like abilities that the creature possesses.

Thanks in advance
Bloodtide_the_Red
12-14-07, 08:29 PM Originally Posted by srd
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Note that both Protective aura and tongues have an (Su) by them.....that is short for Supernatural ability.

BT
Andrew
12-15-07, 12:41 AM The Polymorphing, Part Three (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) Rules of the Game article indicated that gaining the angel subtype did not grant the supernatural features of it.

You do have a case to be made about these being basic features of the type, but the spell specifies that it can't grant a creatures supernatural or spell-like abilities, nor any extraordinary special qualities. It is not specific as to what means the assumed form acquired earns those abilities. It certainly seems against the spirit of the spell, even if the RAW might have different interpretations.
deduke
12-18-07, 07:27 AM Thanks Andrew,

That article you linked provided all the answers I need.
yrogerg
12-19-07, 08:58 AM Thanks Andrew,

That article you linked provided all the answers I need.

It is, however, important to note that Skip is widely regarded in error in that article about equipment resizing for different-sized forms, however.

Many people note that unlike Enlarge Person/Reduce Person, Polymorph does not specify that worn items are changed in any way (other than melded with the form if they cannot be worn), and weapons and armor do not ordinarily resize, otherwise. Moreover, if this is the case, the Sizing enhancement would be largely superfluous.

IIRC, the FAQ also ends up having a different conclusion on this one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deduke 12-14-07, 09:24 AM	Hello all, There is a question that has been bothering me for quite a while and I hope you can help me find an answer to it. There is a level 12 character that is currently an outsider, he has the ability to cast the polymorph spell and can thus change into an outsider, so he chooses to become an Astral deva. The problem comes from the following sentence. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. This means he gains the following types: Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good) The question is about the angel subtype. again from the SRD: Angel Traits: An angel possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). * Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. * Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification. * Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10. * +4 racial bonus on saves against poison. * Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel’s HD). This aura can be dispelled, but the angel can create it again as a free action on its next turn. (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an angel’s statistics block.) *Tongues (Su): All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active. The main problem is of course the protective aura, the question is does the character gets this aura. The main contradiction is from the polymorph spell again from the SRD: The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. I hope you can tell me if the character gains the Protective aura and tongues, I personally think the character gets those abilities since it gains the type and the polymorph wording is about specific supernatural and spell-like abilities that the creature possesses. Thanks in advance
Bloodtide_the_Red 12-14-07, 08:29 PM	Originally Posted by srd The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Note that both Protective aura and tongues have an (Su) by them.....that is short for Supernatural ability. BT
Andrew 12-15-07, 12:41 AM	The Polymorphing, Part Three (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) Rules of the Game article indicated that gaining the angel subtype did not grant the supernatural features of it. You do have a case to be made about these being basic features of the type, but the spell specifies that it can't grant a creatures supernatural or spell-like abilities, nor any extraordinary special qualities. It is not specific as to what means the assumed form acquired earns those abilities. It certainly seems against the spirit of the spell, even if the RAW might have different interpretations.
deduke 12-18-07, 07:27 AM	Thanks Andrew, That article you linked provided all the answers I need.
yrogerg 12-19-07, 08:58 AM	Thanks Andrew, That article you linked provided all the answers I need. It is, however, important to note that Skip is widely regarded in error in that article about equipment resizing for different-sized forms, however. Many people note that unlike Enlarge Person/Reduce Person, Polymorph does not specify that worn items are changed in any way (other than melded with the form if they cannot be worn), and weapons and armor do not ordinarily resize, otherwise. Moreover, if this is the case, the Sizing enhancement would be largely superfluous. IIRC, the FAQ also ends up having a different conclusion on this one.