Polymorphing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Polymorphing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pegasos989
04-09-07, 04:53 AM Heya, I just want to make sure that I have understood polymorphing properly.

Let's say a level 7 wizard polymorphs level 7 fighter into an ogre.

The fighter gains STR 21, dex 8 and con 15 (the non-elite stats of ogre) regardless of what his own stats were.
The fighter gets natural armor +5, regardless of what his own natural armor was.
The fighter becomes large.
None of his equipment can be used (as it is now smaller size than the ogre, if fighter was medium) so weapons are dropped down and armor melds into the form.
The fighter heals 7 points (as if having rested).
The fighter gains toughness and weapon focus(greatclub) as racial feats.
All other stats (aside from those changing because of size, like grapple mod) are unchanged.

Anything wrong in those?

Also, does equipment resize as if he would be enlarged?

What if the wizard casts enlarge person before polymorph? The fighter is enlarged to large but it doesn't matter as the polymorph trumps the previous size.
The thing I am concerned with is the armor - they are enlarged so even if they are not affected by the polymorph, they are still wearable (due to being large size). However, in this case, what happens when the enlarge person spell ends before polymorph?
runestar
04-09-07, 07:13 AM The fighter gains toughness and weapon focus(greatclub) as racial feats.
You only gain extra feats if they are denoted with the (b) descriptor, meaning they are bonus feats. Toughness and weapon focus were chosen by an ogre as his regular feats, and thus, would be not granted via polymorph.

The rest look correct though. Bear in mind that your hp does not change, even if your con score does change.
Also, does equipment resize as if he would be enlarged?
I am not familiar with how enlarge person interacts with polymorph, but I don't think they will stack the way you want them to. When you polymorph, you are no longer a humanoid, thus suppressing enlarge person(since you are no longer a legal target for the spell). When you stop being under the benefit of enlarge person, will your eq automatically resize back to normal? I think the armour would shrink, then just meld into your polymorphed form.

You might want to consider the sizing weapon property from underdark, or carry around backup large weapons for this purpose. Perhaps have the mage also cast mage armour on you to partially mitigate the drawbacks of having no armour.
tos_shai_hulud
04-09-07, 09:59 AM The rest look correct though. Bear in mind that your hp does not change, even if your con score does change.

I don't understand why they did this one. Was there a problem recalculating hit points?
runestar
04-09-07, 10:11 AM Probably because it would be stupid for a 100hp druid to suddenly get reduced to 4hp when he wildshapes into a rat or cat....:P Who knows...
darokinblade
04-09-07, 12:27 PM All equipment is melded reguardless of wether or not they can use it. They would have to drop it all before the spell is cast, which would mean that it would not be resized. (Complete mage, 91).

If the human fighter were to drop his weapons, then be changed, he could pick it up but it would remain medium sized, and he would take a -2 to all attacks.
darokinblade
04-09-07, 12:29 PM Also, remember that the fighter loses all of his class abilities, including bonus fighter feats, and access to weapon specialization trees...
tos_shai_hulud
04-09-07, 12:34 PM Also, remember that the fighter loses all of his class abilities, including bonus fighter feats, and access to weapon specialization trees...

Not so. He loses all racial abilities, but not class abilities. He retains his mind, and his training. If he were human, he would lose the bonus skill point from each level and his first level bonus feat, but not his class abilities.
darokinblade
04-09-07, 12:53 PM From complete mage, p. 91 under the polymorph subschool, where it clearly states that polymorph and alter self are now classified as:

"In all other ways, the target's normal game statistics are replaced by those to the new form. The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features."
tos_shai_hulud
04-09-07, 01:04 PM Those are not standard. They are only if you decide to play with those rules. The standard rule set is as follows:

You retain your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses when in your assumed form.

You're still your same old self -- just in body that has changed superficially. Though not specifically mentioned in the alter self spell description, you also retain everything else that your class and level gives you, including skill ranks and feats.
Marcus Majarra
04-09-07, 01:59 PM Actually, even the polymorph subschool rules state that old text still trumps new text where a contradiction exists. Since alter self states that the character retains its class abilities, and since polymorph is based on alter self, a polymorphed character retains class abilities.

Polymorph needs fixing. Bad.
meabolex
04-09-07, 02:32 PM The fighter gets natural armor +5, regardless of what his own natural armor was.

Note this is the base natural armor that the creature has. If you have an enhancement bonus to natural armor (like barkskin or amulet of natural armor), then these values stack.

None of his equipment can be used (as it is now smaller size than the ogre, if fighter was medium) so weapons are dropped down and armor melds into the form.

I believe you can wield weapons smaller than your size.
From the 3.5 SRD
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

But that's irrelevant because items resize to your form:
From RotG: Polymorphing Revisited Part III
As a rule of thumb, a change from a form that has a humanoid shape to another form that also has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The creature's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form at least as well as it fit the original form. The being can change minor details in its equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration.

Since the ogre is a humanoid shape, there shouldn't be an issue with equipment - other than your weapon increases in size (and thus deals more damage) and your gear weight has increased substantially. Note that non-humanoid shapes limit what gear you can transform with. Druid wildshaping prevents any gear from shifting with you (it all becomes non-functional).
tos_shai_hulud
04-09-07, 04:40 PM Polymorphing Revisited deals with Alternate Form (which is a monster special ability rather than a spell effect). Does the spell fall under the same rules for altering the size of weapons?
LeuktheSavior
04-09-07, 04:49 PM enlarge person also enlarges equipment. if you want to solve the polymorph problem, just equip your characters with the changing armor that shifts with you. expensive, yeah, but if your druid loves to turn your fighter into ogres and your mages into cats, its best that they can still wear their armor.
Dark0001
04-10-07, 12:03 AM Just so I understand this then - if a monk were polymorphed into a cat, he'd still be able to use his flurry of blows (paws?), but use the cats "paw" attack for damage?
runestar
04-10-07, 02:40 AM Just so I understand this then - if a monk were polymorphed into a cat, he'd still be able to use his flurry of blows (paws?), but use the cats "paw" attack for damage?
The cat would still be able to use his unarmed strikes at the monk's base damage(modified for size). :)
Dark0001
04-19-07, 12:18 AM So - just to add more trouble - I just got the Complete Scoundrel - and it is very specific that any polymorphed creature cannot use its skills/abilities/etc from its "normal" state while polymorphed...and I've always understood that the "newest" book is the trump for rules - so does this mean that the polymorphed monk can't use its flurry of paws any more, and just has to use the cat's claw/bite attack as per the MM?
Merestil Haye
04-19-07, 05:04 AM All equipment is melded reguardless of wether or not they can use it. They would have to drop it all before the spell is cast, which would mean that it would not be resized. (Complete mage, 91).Why are you quoting Complete Mage?

If the Polymorphed creature can use the equipment he is holding or wearing in the new form then it remains on him and remains functional. This is because the rules of the Polymorph subschool do not override the explicit text of the old spells.

Polymorph is based on Alter Self. Alter Self has this to say about equipment.When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.This is not overwritten by the Polymorph spell, nor is it abrogated by the Polymorph subschool. The subject can continue to use all the equipment he can use in both forms.

As to this specific case, while Enlarge Person and Polymorph are both running on the subject, the subject's equipment is Large and can be used by a Large creature. He would retain the use of the Large weapons and armour.

What happens when the spell ends depends on which one ends first.
Downtym
04-19-07, 12:01 PM I am not familiar with how enlarge person interacts with polymorph, but I don't think they will stack the way you want them to. When you polymorph, you are no longer a humanoid, thus suppressing enlarge person(since you are no longer a legal target for the spell). When you stop being under the benefit of enlarge person, will your eq automatically resize back to normal? I think the armour would shrink, then just meld into your polymorphed form.

Your line of thinking is contradicted by the FAQ. A spell only checks for a target's "validness" at the time of casting. If something should happen afterwards that makes the target invalid for that particular spell, the spell still remains on the target.

For example, if I cast polymorph any object on a chair and turn it into a person then cast dominate person on the chair-person, it would be legal. If the dominate lands and the polymorph any object wears off, the chair is still dominated through dominate person. If I cast polymorph any object to turn the chair into a troll, I would have a dominated troll.

This is a fairly fascetious example, but it shows the extreme example of what this ruling means.

My group has come to the conclusion that Enlarge Person plus Polymorph is a valid tactic to allow a medium sized human to turn into a large sized monster with appropriate weapons. Enlarge Person enlarges the person and the gear. Polymorph changes the person's shape. The Enlarge Person remains since it doesn't check for type after being applied. Obviously, by Polymorph, the size increase for Enlarge Person and Polymorph will not stack - so you get the size of the creature that you are polymorphed into.

Humorous results may occur if you cast Enlarge Person on a medium sized human then Polymorph them to a halfling. Large sized gear, small sized creature.
NoldorForce
04-19-07, 03:03 PM So - just to add more trouble - I just got the Complete Scoundrel - and it is very specific that any polymorphed creature cannot use its skills/abilities/etc from its "normal" state while polymorphed...and I've always understood that the "newest" book is the trump for rules - so does this mean that the polymorphed monk can't use its flurry of paws any more, and just has to use the cat's claw/bite attack as per the MM?You're reading from the Polymorph subschool, which includes specific exceptions for the old, pre-PHB2 line of polymorphing. As above, you favor the old spells over the subschool if they contradict.

Additionally, your equipment stays on you if you can still wear it. This includes just about everything except weapons and armor, as there's text in the overall description of magic items stating that magic clothing and jewelry (that is, nearly everything) resizes to fit the wearer.
Belljar
04-19-07, 05:21 PM Just for the sake of my own sanity as a DM, does anyone know where to look for the actual comprehensive new polymorph rules? Seems there's a lot of confusion with Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, online articles, PHB2, etc.
meabolex
04-19-07, 05:49 PM Just for the sake of my own sanity as a DM, does anyone know where to look for the actual comprehensive new polymorph rules? Seems there's a lot of confusion with Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, online articles, PHB2, etc.

The main problem here is that there are "comprehensive new polymorph rules" all over the place (:

I'd stick with the "Polymorphing Revisited" Rules of the Game articles. At least they're fairly detailed in explanation and examples. They're also by Skip Williams, so at least they're by an original 3.0/3.5 core author.
Merestil Haye
04-19-07, 05:53 PM Just for the sake of my own sanity as a DM, does anyone know where to look for the actual comprehensive new polymorph rules? Seems there's a lot of confusion with Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, online articles, PHB2, etc.The problem isn't the Polymorph subschool. It's that people are ignoring the fact that the rules of the Polymorph subschool don't apply to the PHB spells if the PHB spell contradicts them, just as the Polymorph subschool states.

In general, the latest printing of a rule in an expansion is the one you should go by, if you are using that rule at all.
meabolex
04-19-07, 06:04 PM The problem isn't the Polymorph subschool. It's that people are ignoring the fact that the rules of the Polymorph subschool don't apply to the PHB spells if the PHB spell contradicts them, just as the Polymorph subschool states.

In general, the latest printing of a rule in an expansion is the one you should go by, if you are using that rule at all.

But Belljar wants to know where the "comprehensive" rules are. That is, the rules that supersede all the other rules (including the polymorph school rules). The "Polymorph Revisiting" articles simply hash through the changes to polymorph due to the official errata.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pegasos989 04-09-07, 04:53 AM	Heya, I just want to make sure that I have understood polymorphing properly. Let's say a level 7 wizard polymorphs level 7 fighter into an ogre. The fighter gains STR 21, dex 8 and con 15 (the non-elite stats of ogre) regardless of what his own stats were. The fighter gets natural armor +5, regardless of what his own natural armor was. The fighter becomes large. None of his equipment can be used (as it is now smaller size than the ogre, if fighter was medium) so weapons are dropped down and armor melds into the form. The fighter heals 7 points (as if having rested). The fighter gains toughness and weapon focus(greatclub) as racial feats. All other stats (aside from those changing because of size, like grapple mod) are unchanged. Anything wrong in those? Also, does equipment resize as if he would be enlarged? What if the wizard casts enlarge person before polymorph? The fighter is enlarged to large but it doesn't matter as the polymorph trumps the previous size. The thing I am concerned with is the armor - they are enlarged so even if they are not affected by the polymorph, they are still wearable (due to being large size). However, in this case, what happens when the enlarge person spell ends before polymorph?
runestar 04-09-07, 07:13 AM	The fighter gains toughness and weapon focus(greatclub) as racial feats. You only gain extra feats if they are denoted with the (b) descriptor, meaning they are bonus feats. Toughness and weapon focus were chosen by an ogre as his regular feats, and thus, would be not granted via polymorph. The rest look correct though. Bear in mind that your hp does not change, even if your con score does change. Also, does equipment resize as if he would be enlarged? I am not familiar with how enlarge person interacts with polymorph, but I don't think they will stack the way you want them to. When you polymorph, you are no longer a humanoid, thus suppressing enlarge person(since you are no longer a legal target for the spell). When you stop being under the benefit of enlarge person, will your eq automatically resize back to normal? I think the armour would shrink, then just meld into your polymorphed form. You might want to consider the sizing weapon property from underdark, or carry around backup large weapons for this purpose. Perhaps have the mage also cast mage armour on you to partially mitigate the drawbacks of having no armour.
tos_shai_hulud 04-09-07, 09:59 AM	The rest look correct though. Bear in mind that your hp does not change, even if your con score does change. I don't understand why they did this one. Was there a problem recalculating hit points?
runestar 04-09-07, 10:11 AM	Probably because it would be stupid for a 100hp druid to suddenly get reduced to 4hp when he wildshapes into a rat or cat....:P Who knows...
darokinblade 04-09-07, 12:27 PM	All equipment is melded reguardless of wether or not they can use it. They would have to drop it all before the spell is cast, which would mean that it would not be resized. (Complete mage, 91). If the human fighter were to drop his weapons, then be changed, he could pick it up but it would remain medium sized, and he would take a -2 to all attacks.
darokinblade 04-09-07, 12:29 PM	Also, remember that the fighter loses all of his class abilities, including bonus fighter feats, and access to weapon specialization trees...
tos_shai_hulud 04-09-07, 12:34 PM	Also, remember that the fighter loses all of his class abilities, including bonus fighter feats, and access to weapon specialization trees... Not so. He loses all racial abilities, but not class abilities. He retains his mind, and his training. If he were human, he would lose the bonus skill point from each level and his first level bonus feat, but not his class abilities.
darokinblade 04-09-07, 12:53 PM	From complete mage, p. 91 under the polymorph subschool, where it clearly states that polymorph and alter self are now classified as: "In all other ways, the target's normal game statistics are replaced by those to the new form. The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features."
tos_shai_hulud 04-09-07, 01:04 PM	Those are not standard. They are only if you decide to play with those rules. The standard rule set is as follows: You retain your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses when in your assumed form. You're still your same old self -- just in body that has changed superficially. Though not specifically mentioned in the alter self spell description, you also retain everything else that your class and level gives you, including skill ranks and feats.
Marcus Majarra 04-09-07, 01:59 PM	Actually, even the polymorph subschool rules state that old text still trumps new text where a contradiction exists. Since alter self states that the character retains its class abilities, and since polymorph is based on alter self, a polymorphed character retains class abilities. Polymorph needs fixing. Bad.
meabolex 04-09-07, 02:32 PM	The fighter gets natural armor +5, regardless of what his own natural armor was. Note this is the base natural armor that the creature has. If you have an enhancement bonus to natural armor (like barkskin or amulet of natural armor), then these values stack. None of his equipment can be used (as it is now smaller size than the ogre, if fighter was medium) so weapons are dropped down and armor melds into the form. I believe you can wield weapons smaller than your size. From the 3.5 SRD Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. But that's irrelevant because items resize to your form: From RotG: Polymorphing Revisited Part III As a rule of thumb, a change from a form that has a humanoid shape to another form that also has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The creature's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form at least as well as it fit the original form. The being can change minor details in its equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration. Since the ogre is a humanoid shape, there shouldn't be an issue with equipment - other than your weapon increases in size (and thus deals more damage) and your gear weight has increased substantially. Note that non-humanoid shapes limit what gear you can transform with. Druid wildshaping prevents any gear from shifting with you (it all becomes non-functional).
tos_shai_hulud 04-09-07, 04:40 PM	Polymorphing Revisited deals with Alternate Form (which is a monster special ability rather than a spell effect). Does the spell fall under the same rules for altering the size of weapons?
LeuktheSavior 04-09-07, 04:49 PM	enlarge person also enlarges equipment. if you want to solve the polymorph problem, just equip your characters with the changing armor that shifts with you. expensive, yeah, but if your druid loves to turn your fighter into ogres and your mages into cats, its best that they can still wear their armor.
Dark0001 04-10-07, 12:03 AM	Just so I understand this then - if a monk were polymorphed into a cat, he'd still be able to use his flurry of blows (paws?), but use the cats "paw" attack for damage?
runestar 04-10-07, 02:40 AM	Just so I understand this then - if a monk were polymorphed into a cat, he'd still be able to use his flurry of blows (paws?), but use the cats "paw" attack for damage? The cat would still be able to use his unarmed strikes at the monk's base damage(modified for size). :)
Dark0001 04-19-07, 12:18 AM	So - just to add more trouble - I just got the Complete Scoundrel - and it is very specific that any polymorphed creature cannot use its skills/abilities/etc from its "normal" state while polymorphed...and I've always understood that the "newest" book is the trump for rules - so does this mean that the polymorphed monk can't use its flurry of paws any more, and just has to use the cat's claw/bite attack as per the MM?
Merestil Haye 04-19-07, 05:04 AM	All equipment is melded reguardless of wether or not they can use it. They would have to drop it all before the spell is cast, which would mean that it would not be resized. (Complete mage, 91).Why are you quoting Complete Mage? If the Polymorphed creature can use the equipment he is holding or wearing in the new form then it remains on him and remains functional. This is because the rules of the Polymorph subschool do not override the explicit text of the old spells. Polymorph is based on Alter Self. Alter Self has this to say about equipment.When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.This is not overwritten by the Polymorph spell, nor is it abrogated by the Polymorph subschool. The subject can continue to use all the equipment he can use in both forms. As to this specific case, while Enlarge Person and Polymorph are both running on the subject, the subject's equipment is Large and can be used by a Large creature. He would retain the use of the Large weapons and armour. What happens when the spell ends depends on which one ends first.
Downtym 04-19-07, 12:01 PM	I am not familiar with how enlarge person interacts with polymorph, but I don't think they will stack the way you want them to. When you polymorph, you are no longer a humanoid, thus suppressing enlarge person(since you are no longer a legal target for the spell). When you stop being under the benefit of enlarge person, will your eq automatically resize back to normal? I think the armour would shrink, then just meld into your polymorphed form. Your line of thinking is contradicted by the FAQ. A spell only checks for a target's "validness" at the time of casting. If something should happen afterwards that makes the target invalid for that particular spell, the spell still remains on the target. For example, if I cast polymorph any object on a chair and turn it into a person then cast dominate person on the chair-person, it would be legal. If the dominate lands and the polymorph any object wears off, the chair is still dominated through dominate person. If I cast polymorph any object to turn the chair into a troll, I would have a dominated troll. This is a fairly fascetious example, but it shows the extreme example of what this ruling means. My group has come to the conclusion that Enlarge Person plus Polymorph is a valid tactic to allow a medium sized human to turn into a large sized monster with appropriate weapons. Enlarge Person enlarges the person and the gear. Polymorph changes the person's shape. The Enlarge Person remains since it doesn't check for type after being applied. Obviously, by Polymorph, the size increase for Enlarge Person and Polymorph will not stack - so you get the size of the creature that you are polymorphed into. Humorous results may occur if you cast Enlarge Person on a medium sized human then Polymorph them to a halfling. Large sized gear, small sized creature.
NoldorForce 04-19-07, 03:03 PM	So - just to add more trouble - I just got the Complete Scoundrel - and it is very specific that any polymorphed creature cannot use its skills/abilities/etc from its "normal" state while polymorphed...and I've always understood that the "newest" book is the trump for rules - so does this mean that the polymorphed monk can't use its flurry of paws any more, and just has to use the cat's claw/bite attack as per the MM?You're reading from the Polymorph subschool, which includes specific exceptions for the old, pre-PHB2 line of polymorphing. As above, you favor the old spells over the subschool if they contradict. Additionally, your equipment stays on you if you can still wear it. This includes just about everything except weapons and armor, as there's text in the overall description of magic items stating that magic clothing and jewelry (that is, nearly everything) resizes to fit the wearer.
Belljar 04-19-07, 05:21 PM	Just for the sake of my own sanity as a DM, does anyone know where to look for the actual comprehensive new polymorph rules? Seems there's a lot of confusion with Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, online articles, PHB2, etc.
meabolex 04-19-07, 05:49 PM	Just for the sake of my own sanity as a DM, does anyone know where to look for the actual comprehensive new polymorph rules? Seems there's a lot of confusion with Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, online articles, PHB2, etc. The main problem here is that there are "comprehensive new polymorph rules" all over the place (: I'd stick with the "Polymorphing Revisited" Rules of the Game articles. At least they're fairly detailed in explanation and examples. They're also by Skip Williams, so at least they're by an original 3.0/3.5 core author.
Merestil Haye 04-19-07, 05:53 PM	Just for the sake of my own sanity as a DM, does anyone know where to look for the actual comprehensive new polymorph rules? Seems there's a lot of confusion with Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, online articles, PHB2, etc.The problem isn't the Polymorph subschool. It's that people are ignoring the fact that the rules of the Polymorph subschool don't apply to the PHB spells if the PHB spell contradicts them, just as the Polymorph subschool states. In general, the latest printing of a rule in an expansion is the one you should go by, if you are using that rule at all.
meabolex 04-19-07, 06:04 PM	The problem isn't the Polymorph subschool. It's that people are ignoring the fact that the rules of the Polymorph subschool don't apply to the PHB spells if the PHB spell contradicts them, just as the Polymorph subschool states. In general, the latest printing of a rule in an expansion is the one you should go by, if you are using that rule at all. But Belljar wants to know where the "comprehensive" rules are. That is, the rules that supersede all the other rules (including the polymorph school rules). The "Polymorph Revisiting" articles simply hash through the changes to polymorph due to the official errata.