Portable Symbols? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Portable Symbols? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cobra1117
05-07-07, 10:25 AM Inspired by today's Order of the Stick, I read up on symbol of insanity. I'm hoping that I'm reading them incorrectly, but it appears that they symbol spells could be placed on a portable object (such as a shield, for example) and carried into battle. Fortunately, none of my players have tried this yet, but can anyone give me some feedback on whether or not this is within the rules? (Personally, I'd lean towards disallowing it for balance issues, but opinions on that would be appreciated as well!)

Thanks in advance!
meabolex
05-07-07, 11:05 AM Keep in mind that since Xykon is undead, the effects of the symbol of insanity on the "bouncy ball" wouldn't affect him anyway. If it could, he'd be attuned to the effect so he'd be exempted from it.

Note this is tongue-in-cheek in that a bouncy ball is somewhat removed from a typical D&D setting - so it's more of a joke than anything. But in terms of effectiveness, this is a legal way to use the spell. Inscribing a symbol on a mobile object is certainly valid. And since symbol of insanity has no real limitations other than functioning 10 mins/level once triggered, it's a very potent spell when used correctly.

The only question I have is the clause:
You can’t use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe.

While I think it's still valid, throwing an object into a crowd of enemies is arguably offensive.

Link since the topic of portable symbols is valid: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html
olshanski_home
05-07-07, 11:12 AM Also beware that when triggered, a symbol targets "the nearest creatures first". If you are carrying a shield with a symbol of death, and someone else looks at it, you are the closest and you will be the first one to feel the effects of the magic, even if someone else looked at it.
Cobra1117
05-07-07, 11:35 AM Also beware that when triggered, a symbol targets "the nearest creatures first". If you are carrying a shield with a symbol of death, and someone else looks at it, you are the closest and you will be the first one to feel the effects of the magic, even if someone else looked at it.

While this is true, if a player casts it on his own shield, he is "...automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them." (Using the description of symbol of death in this case) Therefore, you could use it own your own shield (and even attune up to two other people during the casting of the spell), which still makes this a nasty tactic. (Granted the high material cost does help offset this.)
Cobra1117
05-07-07, 11:50 AM While I think it's still valid, throwing an object into a crowd of enemies is arguably offensive.

And yes, I do agree that his particular use of the symbol is questionable (and somewhat silly). The concept, however, is still an interesting one for discussion.

Similar applications that are less offensive actions exist. For example, someone I was just talking to just mentioned bundling up a bunch of symbols on sturdy objects (sheets of metal, for example) and dropping them on attacking warriors. The symbols would cause massive amounts of damage in army-style combat, and would go inert before the survivors could use them for a counterattack. Even worse, the party could carry several of them (cast permanently) and place them as simple, reusable traps.

Again, that's not to say that this is unbalancing... that's what I'm trying to get people's opinions on. :-)
Kragg Bonemeal
05-07-07, 12:16 PM Not too unbalancing. They are expensive to cast on an object. I have used Symbol of Weakness on my shield to go off at a triggered word (standard action) in a high powered game before. It usually only affects the weakest units (fodder), doesn't affect the undead or the shielded, and it really sucks when rolling 3d6 = 3! :)
mvincent
05-07-07, 12:31 PM My mage had a permanent Symbol of Persuasion on his hand. He didn't have to use it offensively, as allies (or his familiar) would frequently purposefully activate it.
Cobra1117
05-08-07, 08:57 AM Cool. Thanks for your opinions everyone. Looks like they aren't as unfeasible/unbalanced as I thought.
Radijs
05-08-07, 10:12 AM Don't forget that you can attune symbols to ignore certain individuals.

You also can attune any number of creatures to the symbol of death, but doing this can extend the casting time. Attuning one or two creatures takes negligible time, and attuning a small group (as many as ten creatures) extends the casting time to 1 hour. Attuning a large group (as many as twenty-five creatures) takes 24 hours. Attuning larger groups takes proportionately longer. Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it and is immune to its effects, even if within its radius when triggered. You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them.
So with a 1 hour casting time you can have a symbol of death on your own shield and still not be worried about anything.
tasslehoff220
05-08-07, 11:45 AM As much as I love order of the stick and hate pointing this out the bouncing ball trick wouldn't actually work bacause no one would have been able to look at the rune on the tiny bounce ball while it was flying around the room nor would they have even if they could as they would have been paying attention to Xyclon. One could claim that they touched it when it was bouncing around the room but that is certainly using it offensively (throwing the object with the symbol at peopl). Anyway, I love order of the stick and don't really care when he twists the rules for the sake of his plot or jokes, so this isnt to say doing that was a problem, just that it wouldnt work. In actual D&D.
Empiro
05-08-07, 10:56 PM The whole "you can't use it offsensively" point is moot in my mind. Because once triggered, it doesn't matter if you look at/touch the rune or not; you're affected if you're within 60 feet, period. So what a PC could do is intentionally trigger the symbol themselves (they're automatically immune), and throw the ball into a crowd. Such a symbol made permanent could certainly be potent.
This_Dude
05-08-07, 11:18 PM Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it
If you are the caster, you are automatically attuned. Or, if the caster is your pal, and attunes you to it:
You can NOT put it on your own shield, and trigger it yourself, then walk into battle. You can NOT put it on a sheet of metal, and trigger it yourself, and then drop it into battle.

It doesn't say you can trigger it, but are not affected. It specifically says you "cannot trigger it".
Empiro
05-08-07, 11:32 PM Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it
If you are the caster, you are automatically attuned. Or, if the caster is your pal, and attunes you to it:
You can NOT put it on your own shield, and trigger it yourself, then walk into battle. You can NOT put it on a sheet of metal, and trigger it yourself, and then drop it into battle.

It doesn't say you can trigger it, but are not affected. It specifically says you "cannot trigger it".

Actually it says: "You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them."

Which would imply that indeed, you can trigger them intentionally. And even if you cannot, there are a million ways around it, such as by getting a Summoned Monster or an animal from a Bag of Tricks to trigger it.
Nom
05-09-07, 03:08 AM It also says that you can't use them offensively. You can't strike someone with a touch symbol on a sword or shield, for example. Triggering it yourself sounds very much like "using it offensively".

It won't foil workarounds like using complicit expendable allies (eg summons).
Manic Man
05-09-07, 03:24 AM Symbol of Death is not a good choice for object based symbols if your players are looking to use it as a permanent inscribed choice

Those which have no HP limitations such as symbol of persuasion is much more powerful as every single one gets hit, irregardless of HD and hp.

If your BBEG unluckily rolled a bad save, he gets hit by the symbol just like any of his lower level henchmen, unlike the symbol of death or sleep.

Its a very potent tactic but at that level its cast, its not really that bad. However you'll have to look out for players attempting to pull this off at a much lower level through NPC spellcasting or scroll usage.
This_Dude
05-09-07, 09:33 AM Actually it says: "You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them."

Which would imply that indeed, you can trigger them intentionally. And even if you cannot, there are a million ways around it, such as by getting a Summoned Monster or an animal from a Bag of Tricks to trigger it.

Actually, it says what I quoted also - Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it. If you are attuned to it, you cannot trigger it. Just because they said you can't "inadvertently" trigger it later on, they've already stated that you "cannot trigger it" earlier. So, you cannot trigger it advertently, or inadvertently. You simply cannot ever trigger it. Not even a little. Not even if you really, really, really want to. Not even if you think it's the coolest thing ever. Not even if you think doing so would get that red-haired girl to talk to you.

As for summoned monsters triggering it, if you order the monster to do so, I'd rule that you have triggered it. Animals from a Bag of Tricks? They can't read it, there's little chance they'll look at a symbol on their own, and if you pick them up to touch the rune with them, you are doing it and can't trigger it.

It'd be really hard to attune yourself and your party and then get it triggered at just the time you want it. You'd have to do something like Xykon did - get the opponents to trigger it themselves.
Empiro
05-09-07, 02:54 PM Actually, it says what I quoted also - Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it. If you are attuned to it, you cannot trigger it. Just because they said you can't "inadvertently" trigger it later on, they've already stated that you "cannot trigger it" earlier. So, you cannot trigger it advertently, or inadvertently. You simply cannot ever trigger it. Not even a little. Not even if you really, really, really want to. Not even if you think it's the coolest thing ever. Not even if you think doing so would get that red-haired girl to talk to you.

As for summoned monsters triggering it, if you order the monster to do so, I'd rule that you have triggered it. Animals from a Bag of Tricks? They can't read it, there's little chance they'll look at a symbol on their own, and if you pick them up to touch the rune with them, you are doing it and can't trigger it.

It'd be really hard to attune yourself and your party and then get it triggered at just the time you want it. You'd have to do something like Xykon did - get the opponents to trigger it themselves.

You can have the symbol triggered by touch, and order your animal from a bag of tricks to walk over it. However, even if you rule that summoned monsters touching it == you triggering it yourself (which has no support in the rules at all), it still doesn't prevent lots of other possibilities -- such as having a friend who's not attuned to it (with Mind Blank), trigger it. I'm sure people can come up with many other schemes, too. The fact is -- it's not difficult to get a symbol trigger when you want it triggered.
Kuronue
05-10-07, 12:37 AM Note that it's not reading the symbol itself that sets it off- its "attempting to" read. The minute one of them thought, "hey, there's somethign written on that ball, lessie if I can make it out..." they all have to save vs insanity. those that pass, then could retrigger it, right?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cobra1117 05-07-07, 10:25 AM	Inspired by today's Order of the Stick, I read up on symbol of insanity. I'm hoping that I'm reading them incorrectly, but it appears that they symbol spells could be placed on a portable object (such as a shield, for example) and carried into battle. Fortunately, none of my players have tried this yet, but can anyone give me some feedback on whether or not this is within the rules? (Personally, I'd lean towards disallowing it for balance issues, but opinions on that would be appreciated as well!) Thanks in advance!
meabolex 05-07-07, 11:05 AM	Keep in mind that since Xykon is undead, the effects of the symbol of insanity on the "bouncy ball" wouldn't affect him anyway. If it could, he'd be attuned to the effect so he'd be exempted from it. Note this is tongue-in-cheek in that a bouncy ball is somewhat removed from a typical D&D setting - so it's more of a joke than anything. But in terms of effectiveness, this is a legal way to use the spell. Inscribing a symbol on a mobile object is certainly valid. And since symbol of insanity has no real limitations other than functioning 10 mins/level once triggered, it's a very potent spell when used correctly. The only question I have is the clause: You can’t use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe. While I think it's still valid, throwing an object into a crowd of enemies is arguably offensive. Link since the topic of portable symbols is valid: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html
olshanski_home 05-07-07, 11:12 AM	Also beware that when triggered, a symbol targets "the nearest creatures first". If you are carrying a shield with a symbol of death, and someone else looks at it, you are the closest and you will be the first one to feel the effects of the magic, even if someone else looked at it.
Cobra1117 05-07-07, 11:35 AM	Also beware that when triggered, a symbol targets "the nearest creatures first". If you are carrying a shield with a symbol of death, and someone else looks at it, you are the closest and you will be the first one to feel the effects of the magic, even if someone else looked at it. While this is true, if a player casts it on his own shield, he is "...automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them." (Using the description of symbol of death in this case) Therefore, you could use it own your own shield (and even attune up to two other people during the casting of the spell), which still makes this a nasty tactic. (Granted the high material cost does help offset this.)
Cobra1117 05-07-07, 11:50 AM	While I think it's still valid, throwing an object into a crowd of enemies is arguably offensive. And yes, I do agree that his particular use of the symbol is questionable (and somewhat silly). The concept, however, is still an interesting one for discussion. Similar applications that are less offensive actions exist. For example, someone I was just talking to just mentioned bundling up a bunch of symbols on sturdy objects (sheets of metal, for example) and dropping them on attacking warriors. The symbols would cause massive amounts of damage in army-style combat, and would go inert before the survivors could use them for a counterattack. Even worse, the party could carry several of them (cast permanently) and place them as simple, reusable traps. Again, that's not to say that this is unbalancing... that's what I'm trying to get people's opinions on. :-)
Kragg Bonemeal 05-07-07, 12:16 PM	Not too unbalancing. They are expensive to cast on an object. I have used Symbol of Weakness on my shield to go off at a triggered word (standard action) in a high powered game before. It usually only affects the weakest units (fodder), doesn't affect the undead or the shielded, and it really sucks when rolling 3d6 = 3! :)
mvincent 05-07-07, 12:31 PM	My mage had a permanent Symbol of Persuasion on his hand. He didn't have to use it offensively, as allies (or his familiar) would frequently purposefully activate it.
Cobra1117 05-08-07, 08:57 AM	Cool. Thanks for your opinions everyone. Looks like they aren't as unfeasible/unbalanced as I thought.
Radijs 05-08-07, 10:12 AM	Don't forget that you can attune symbols to ignore certain individuals. You also can attune any number of creatures to the symbol of death, but doing this can extend the casting time. Attuning one or two creatures takes negligible time, and attuning a small group (as many as ten creatures) extends the casting time to 1 hour. Attuning a large group (as many as twenty-five creatures) takes 24 hours. Attuning larger groups takes proportionately longer. Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it and is immune to its effects, even if within its radius when triggered. You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them. So with a 1 hour casting time you can have a symbol of death on your own shield and still not be worried about anything.
tasslehoff220 05-08-07, 11:45 AM	As much as I love order of the stick and hate pointing this out the bouncing ball trick wouldn't actually work bacause no one would have been able to look at the rune on the tiny bounce ball while it was flying around the room nor would they have even if they could as they would have been paying attention to Xyclon. One could claim that they touched it when it was bouncing around the room but that is certainly using it offensively (throwing the object with the symbol at peopl). Anyway, I love order of the stick and don't really care when he twists the rules for the sake of his plot or jokes, so this isnt to say doing that was a problem, just that it wouldnt work. In actual D&D.
Empiro 05-08-07, 10:56 PM	The whole "you can't use it offsensively" point is moot in my mind. Because once triggered, it doesn't matter if you look at/touch the rune or not; you're affected if you're within 60 feet, period. So what a PC could do is intentionally trigger the symbol themselves (they're automatically immune), and throw the ball into a crowd. Such a symbol made permanent could certainly be potent.
This_Dude 05-08-07, 11:18 PM	Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it If you are the caster, you are automatically attuned. Or, if the caster is your pal, and attunes you to it: You can NOT put it on your own shield, and trigger it yourself, then walk into battle. You can NOT put it on a sheet of metal, and trigger it yourself, and then drop it into battle. It doesn't say you can trigger it, but are not affected. It specifically says you "cannot trigger it".
Empiro 05-08-07, 11:32 PM	Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it If you are the caster, you are automatically attuned. Or, if the caster is your pal, and attunes you to it: You can NOT put it on your own shield, and trigger it yourself, then walk into battle. You can NOT put it on a sheet of metal, and trigger it yourself, and then drop it into battle. It doesn't say you can trigger it, but are not affected. It specifically says you "cannot trigger it". Actually it says: "You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them." Which would imply that indeed, you can trigger them intentionally. And even if you cannot, there are a million ways around it, such as by getting a Summoned Monster or an animal from a Bag of Tricks to trigger it.
Nom 05-09-07, 03:08 AM	It also says that you can't use them offensively. You can't strike someone with a touch symbol on a sword or shield, for example. Triggering it yourself sounds very much like "using it offensively". It won't foil workarounds like using complicit expendable allies (eg summons).
Manic Man 05-09-07, 03:24 AM	Symbol of Death is not a good choice for object based symbols if your players are looking to use it as a permanent inscribed choice Those which have no HP limitations such as symbol of persuasion is much more powerful as every single one gets hit, irregardless of HD and hp. If your BBEG unluckily rolled a bad save, he gets hit by the symbol just like any of his lower level henchmen, unlike the symbol of death or sleep. Its a very potent tactic but at that level its cast, its not really that bad. However you'll have to look out for players attempting to pull this off at a much lower level through NPC spellcasting or scroll usage.
This_Dude 05-09-07, 09:33 AM	Actually it says: "You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them." Which would imply that indeed, you can trigger them intentionally. And even if you cannot, there are a million ways around it, such as by getting a Summoned Monster or an animal from a Bag of Tricks to trigger it. Actually, it says what I quoted also - Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it. If you are attuned to it, you cannot trigger it. Just because they said you can't "inadvertently" trigger it later on, they've already stated that you "cannot trigger it" earlier. So, you cannot trigger it advertently, or inadvertently. You simply cannot ever trigger it. Not even a little. Not even if you really, really, really want to. Not even if you think it's the coolest thing ever. Not even if you think doing so would get that red-haired girl to talk to you. As for summoned monsters triggering it, if you order the monster to do so, I'd rule that you have triggered it. Animals from a Bag of Tricks? They can't read it, there's little chance they'll look at a symbol on their own, and if you pick them up to touch the rune with them, you are doing it and can't trigger it. It'd be really hard to attune yourself and your party and then get it triggered at just the time you want it. You'd have to do something like Xykon did - get the opponents to trigger it themselves.
Empiro 05-09-07, 02:54 PM	Actually, it says what I quoted also - Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it. If you are attuned to it, you cannot trigger it. Just because they said you can't "inadvertently" trigger it later on, they've already stated that you "cannot trigger it" earlier. So, you cannot trigger it advertently, or inadvertently. You simply cannot ever trigger it. Not even a little. Not even if you really, really, really want to. Not even if you think it's the coolest thing ever. Not even if you think doing so would get that red-haired girl to talk to you. As for summoned monsters triggering it, if you order the monster to do so, I'd rule that you have triggered it. Animals from a Bag of Tricks? They can't read it, there's little chance they'll look at a symbol on their own, and if you pick them up to touch the rune with them, you are doing it and can't trigger it. It'd be really hard to attune yourself and your party and then get it triggered at just the time you want it. You'd have to do something like Xykon did - get the opponents to trigger it themselves. You can have the symbol triggered by touch, and order your animal from a bag of tricks to walk over it. However, even if you rule that summoned monsters touching it == you triggering it yourself (which has no support in the rules at all), it still doesn't prevent lots of other possibilities -- such as having a friend who's not attuned to it (with Mind Blank), trigger it. I'm sure people can come up with many other schemes, too. The fact is -- it's not difficult to get a symbol trigger when you want it triggered.
Kuronue 05-10-07, 12:37 AM	Note that it's not reading the symbol itself that sets it off- its "attempting to" read. The minute one of them thought, "hey, there's somethign written on that ball, lessie if I can make it out..." they all have to save vs insanity. those that pass, then could retrigger it, right?