Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Light_Colonel 06-21-07, 11:43 AM	This is one that has been nagging me for a while. Let's say I have a Deinonychus hidden in the bushes, waiting to pop out and gut my PCs. What happens on that Suprise round? Obviously Mr. D wants to charge. He is a Raptor y'know. So he Charges, gets his foot talons sunk into a PCs soft underbelly and then what? Well, he has Pounce. But, this is a suprise round. Now, Pounce says: Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. but Suprise round says: The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs. and Charge says: If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn. A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above). Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge. Sorry if this is an overcomplicated post for what should be a simple problem. I could go either way on this, really. On the one hand it would be overpowered and broken for someone or thing to get a full attack round on a suprise round. On the other hand it seems like a lot of monsters will never get to use their Pounce ability. I am confused. (rolls percentile; 93... Attacks nearest creature!!)
perdera 06-21-07, 12:14 PM	Single-move charge and Pounce seems to follow the rules fine.
Marcus Majarra 06-21-07, 12:44 PM	I agree.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-21-07, 02:28 PM	Seem cut and dry to me. If you can charge, you get pounce.
Coldkilla 06-21-07, 02:42 PM	I think I see what bothers you about this. The action-type exception for Charge (standard action during surprise round) is synergistically interacting with the number-of-attacks exception that Pounce makes for Charging, and the deinonychus ends up getting to move and make its full-attack sequence using only a standard action. Charge specifies only one attack regardless of action-type, while the verbiage for Pounce is silent on action-type, but is itself an override/exception of the one-attack-only rule for Charge. Hmmm. So the dilemma is do you nerf the deinonychus by not allowing full-attack on a surprise round charge, or do you allow it, making the monster a bit (or a lot) more powerful than perhaps the designers intended? One could argue that creatures with Pounce won't always get to act during a surprise round, but most are designed as stalking/predatory kinds of monsters that are supposed to take advantage of surprise to get the drop on their prey. I'd probably allow it for (relatively) unintelligent monsters, but not for sentient NPCs or PCs.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-21-07, 03:24 PM	Meh, just up the CR. Now, this gives me a nasty idea... Druid + Enhanced Wildshape + Dire Tortoise form + Barbarian sub level + Polymorph stacking = always get a surprise round, and always be able to pounce in it. Some how mix in venom-fire for the ability to "one-shot" random encounters before they even start. Might take a little trickery to pimp out the attacks, but it could get ugly. FAST.
Light_Colonel 06-21-07, 03:38 PM	Meh, just up the CR. Now, this gives me a nasty idea... Druid + Enhanced Wildshape + Dire Tortoise form + Barbarian sub level + Polymorph stacking = always get a surprise round, and always be able to pounce in it. Some how mix in venom-fire for the ability to "one-shot" random encounters before they even start. Might take a little trickery to pimp out the attacks, but it could get ugly. FAST. Exactamundo TG. I currently have a Rogue/Barbarian/Ranger who likes to Pounce. Thus far I have not attempted this little feat with him, as I myself am a Lawful Neutral player and have had a crisis of rules lawyering over the situation. Also, in the campaign I am about to start running I have several encounters lined up that included identical situations (including the aforementioned deinonychus)
Anathema 06-21-07, 07:35 PM	If you're worried about the players abusing pounce, there's a few solutions. The first is just to not give them pounce, which is easy if there are no druids to wildshape in to creatures that have it. The second is to restrict how often the have access to pounce. If their only way to do this is polymorph it shouldn't be that hard. Thirdly, make it impossible for them to charge or at least to charge the primary target. Difficult terrain, a lack of a straight line, or simply being too far away will do this. Fourth, make it harder for them to get a surprise round. Spells like Alarm are a great way to do this. Finally; and this is the most important thing to remember, just let them do it most of the time, but mitigate how much it affects your encounter and how much experience they get for it. It's important to not stifle your players sense of power completely, like making your dungeons all 10' tall as soon as your mage learns fly. Just the important ones ;)
Salla 06-21-07, 08:31 PM	I've been wanting to do a Catfolk TWFing Rogue with Catfolk Pounce for a while now ... team up with someone using the White Raven maneuver that renders a foe flat-footed for teamwork fun!
Nom 06-22-07, 02:49 AM	However, consider PH pg 143: "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks." Note that it doesn't say "full attack", but "full round action". One could read this as saying that if you're not making a full round action then you can't make multiple attacks (barring specific exceptions).
Leilond 06-22-07, 03:59 AM	However, consider PH pg 143: "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks." Note that it doesn't say "full attack", but "full round action". One could read this as saying that if you're not making a full round action then you can't make multiple attacks (barring specific exceptions). I totally agree with this interpretation To pounce you need to charge AND to use a full round action During a surpriese round you cannot use a full round action, so you cannot pounce
perdera 06-22-07, 10:30 AM	However, consider PH pg 143: "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks." Note that it doesn't say "full attack", but "full round action". One could read this as saying that if you're not making a full round action then you can't make multiple attacks (barring specific exceptions). That's an excellent point. I guess, it just screws with horrific flavor. I like the idea of some horrible thing suddenly rushing out of the bushes and leaping on the nearest PC. It's pretty horrific. Even if the creature were completely surprising (no one noticed it) it still couldn't perform this action, ever. I can't think of any way to make it happen...like the creature gains surprise and refocuses it's initiative to 20+ and then combat begins normally...or...something... I don't know, technically, I think you're correct, but I'd allow the surprise charge-pounce. It likely wouldn't happen that frequently and would make for some good occasional OH SNAP moments.
Leilond 06-22-07, 10:34 AM	That's an excellent point. I guess, it just screws with horrific flavor. I like the idea of some horrible thing suddenly rushing out of the bushes and leaping on the nearest PC. It's pretty horrific. Even if the creature were completely surprising (no one noticed it) it still couldn't perform this action, ever. I can't think of any way to make it happen...like the creature gains surprise and refocuses it's initiative to 20+ and then combat begins normally...or...something... Well...why? The surprise round the monster will take a single attack. The first regular round the monster will take a full attack If it refocuses the initiative to 20+ it will lose one attack I don't know, technically, I think you're correct, but I'd allow the surprise charge-pounce. It likely wouldn't happen that frequently and would make for some good occasional OH SNAP moments. Pouche is made for animals that usually run after their prey for a while, not simply "ambush", like lions that run for 10 or more second after their target I think we're confusing pounce meaning
perdera 06-22-07, 12:02 PM	Well...why? The surprise round the monster will take a single attack. The first regular round the monster will take a full attack If it refocuses the initiative to 20+ it will lose one attack Sorry, I meant it couldn't ever perform it has an out-of-nowhere surprise ambush what-the-hell-is-that attack. The scenario you outlined just sounds so boring, that's all. Of course I'd adjust the encounter accordingly, but something leaping out of the bushes and rending you horribly just sounds way more exciting than something running up and clawing at you once. Pouche is made for animals that usually run after their prey for a while, not simply "ambush", like lions that run for 10 or more second after their target I think we're confusing pounce meaning hee hee, pouche, it's worth a chuckle. I don't see any reason to restrict it in your head one way or another. Since it was mentioned earlier (well, deinonychus at least), this whole thread I've been picturing Jurassic Park...dark rainy jungle...OH SNAP, velociraptor rending the cleric horribly! A velociraptor springing out and snapping at you once just doesn't seem as OH SNAPPY (hehe??) to me. Sometimes I just wanna make my PCs poo their pants, without resorting to Alli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alli_%28drug%29#Side_effects).
Marcus Majarra 06-22-07, 12:56 PM	I totally agree with this interpretation To pounce you need to charge AND to use a full round action During a surpriese round you cannot use a full round action, so you cannot pounce This makes no sense. A charge is typically a full-round action, as is a full attack. If you're using this kind of logic to outrule pounce on the surprise round, you also have to do it in normal rounds (as you're normally not entitled to two full-round actions in normal rounds). Pounce explicitly indicates what you can do: a full attack at the end of a charge. As long as you're charging, you're entitled to a full attack. This why multi-pounce builds work (unfortunately). A telflammar shadowlord with the shadow pounce ability gets to make this kind of maneuever every time he uses a teleportation power. Just with Shadow Hand maneuvers from the ToB, you can do this three times per round.
Father Dale 06-26-07, 07:36 AM	This is a tricky one, I think. One the one hand, you have a creature with pounce that should be able to get a full attack whenever it charges. On the other, you have the surprise round that limits a creature to a single standard or move action. You can of course charge when you are limited to a single standard action, such as during a surprise round, so long as you move no more than your speed. So the question then is: Can a creature get a full attack using pounce even if its limited to a single standard action? We are all looking at this coming from a surprise round and trying to decide if it works like that. Theres other situations we should probably look at too. Slowed: A slowed creature can take only a single move or standard action. Staggered: A staggered creature can take only a single move or standard action each round. So both of these conditions are very similar to the limitations during a surprise round. i.e. the subject creature can only take a single more or standard action. So it would seem that however one would determine pounce works in a surprise round, it should apply to these conditions as well. One other thing to consider is the epic feat Dire Charge. Which reads: DIRE CHARGE [EPIC] Prerequisite: Improved Initiative. Benefit: If the character charges a foe during the first round of combat (or the surprise round, if the character is allowed to act in it), he or she can make a full attack against the opponent charged. Normal: Without this feat, a character may only make a single attack as part of a charge. Now that is specific that a creature with that feat can take the full attack even in a surprise round. However, even given Dire Charge, I'd have to fall on the side of pounce not being useable in a surprise round, when a creature is slowed, and when it is staggered. The reason is that I don't see a slowed creature being able to make use of pounce. It makes little sense for a slowed creature that is limited to a single action to be able to get a full attack action. In particular, it seems counter-intuitive to allow a slowed or staggered creature MORE attacks when it moves then when it stands still and simply attacks. Given that, I'd rule that the limitations on actions in a surprise round trumps the pounce ability. Still, I don't think it would be a bad house rule to allow a creature with pounce to use it on a surprise round, but not when it is slowed or staggered. I just don't think it was designed to be usable when a creature was slowed, and for consistency reasons it wasn't designed to be used in a surprise round. If a DM allows it, he should look carefully at how much more deadly it makes an encounter, and should adjust the EL accordingly. (This should always be done anyways when the PCs are at a tactical disadvantage, such as an ambush. Sometimes it might result in a higher EL, and thus more XP, since it is a tougher challenge than simply stumbling upon the creatures straight up.)
Leilond 06-26-07, 07:43 AM	In particular, it seems counter-intuitive to allow a slowed or staggered creature MORE attacks when it moves then when it stands still and simply attacks. That's the key I think In the surprise round the creature cannot make full attack. But if the creature charge it can. I cannot admit that as a rule
Phrennzy 06-26-07, 10:25 AM	That's the key I think In the surprise round the creature cannot make full attack. But if the creature charge it can. I cannot admit that as a rule Slowed and Staggered can be treated differently than a suprise round. The Velociraptor is surprising the PCs, so it is ready to rush in and attack. I'd give it the charge/pounce. That seems what it is designed for.
Leilond 06-26-07, 10:31 AM	Slowed and Staggered can be treated differently than a suprise round. The Velociraptor is surprising the PCs, so it is ready to rush in and attack. I'd give it the charge/pounce. That seems what it is designed for. I still cannot understand how a monster that do not move can make less attacks than a monster that move I didn't talked about "slowed or staggered" I'm talking about a surprise round. A velociraptor that wait me behind a corner. If the velociraptor, in the surprise round, happens to be directly near me, it can attack immediatlely, without moving, making a single attack. If it is 20' from me and have to move before attacking it can deliver a full attack I cannot justify a rule that permit a creature that move to make more attack than the same creature that do not move To deliver a full attack you still need a full round action
Father Dale 06-26-07, 10:34 AM	If the velociraptor, in the surprise round, happens to be directly near me, it can attack immediatlely, without moving, making a single attack. If it is 20' from me and have to move before attacking it can deliver a full attack I cannot justify a rule that permit a creature that move to make more attack than the same creature that do not move To deliver a full attack you still need a full round action Putting it that way I'd have to agree too. It just doesn't seem possible to let it do more when it has to add a move then if it doesn't move at all. I think the solution might be to let it 'refocus' to start the first round, then take its full charge/pounce action. The problem is that the normal situation would be where the monster is aware of the PCs but the PCs aren't aware of the monster. Hence, no matter what the monster does, its first action is a surprise action, limiting it to a single attack. If you want it to pounce, simply do it like this. Say that the monsters 'prepares' to pounce by using its surprise action (its delaying to go first in the regular round)--its studying its prey and preparing to attack. Then it takes its action, starting a regular round of combat, and going first. It gets to pounce. Then everyone rolls initiative and goes in order (with the monster at the top of the list). Thus, after the monster goes, everyone gets a full round action per normal, as you are in regular combat rounds. This seems to be supported by the RAW (under delaying actions). The end result is that the monster gets to pounce, it goes first in initiative, but then everyone gets a full round action to act before the monsters next turn. The one issue would be if one or more of the party members become aware of the monster when the monster becomes aware of the party. The monster can still delay in the surprise round, but the aware party members can take surprise round actions as normal. This also prevents the extremely dangerous situation of a monster getting a full attack in a suprise round, then winning initiative and getting another full round attack before anyone can react. Thats a PC death waiting to happen, and can easily disrupt or slow down a campaign. (Even worse is the optional rule of a bonus standard action on a nat-20 inititave check. Letting a monster pounce in surprise, then it nat-20s on initiative and gets a standard action plus a full round action before anyone else can do anything. Thats too much.) And nothing will cheese off a PC more than killing him without him getting even a chance to react...
Moldiver 06-26-07, 11:24 AM	I still cannot understand how a monster that do not move can make less attacks than a monster that move I didn't talked about "slowed or staggered" I'm talking about a surprise round. A velociraptor that wait me behind a corner. If the velociraptor, in the surprise round, happens to be directly near me, it can attack immediatlely, without moving, making a single attack. If it is 20' from me and have to move before attacking it can deliver a full attack I cannot justify a rule that permit a creature that move to make more attack than the same creature that do not move To deliver a full attack you still need a full round action I'd say you just proved why it should work. The raptor is attacking in two different ways, one of which it is more suited for. When the raptor charges and pounces, which a pounce is a leap, it's bringing it's whole body to bear, something it's designed to do. Overwhelm it's prey quickly. Take the megaraptor for example, when it's only a simple attack it can only use it's talons, but when it charges it takes it's foreclaws and bite into it's attack as well. To me, if it says, which it does, that when charging that you can take a full attack, then that's what you can do. If they didn't want it to be able to work that way, why do they have it even written to be able to charge while only having a standard action? Frankly I don't really see player abuse either, or at least not any worse than anything else they can do. A sorcerer who only flies so he can't be counter attacked, a druid who uses pounce constantly, a ranger who takes advantage of being able to rend constantly. They're all just ways for a player to succeed, if such a thing really ends up being a problem, I'd just up the monsters I threw at my party. If they've figured out a way to handle situations that are beyond their power, then great, but there will always be something bigger and badder, and luck only lasts so long. Unless you're a luckstealer. :)
Leilond 06-26-07, 11:41 AM	I'd say you just proved why it should work. The raptor is attacking in two different ways, one of which it is more suited for. When the raptor charges and pounces, which a pounce is a leap, it's bringing it's whole body to bear, something it's designed to do. Overwhelm it's prey quickly. It can be more quickly than a raptor just in the square near mine Take the megaraptor for example, when it's only a simple attack it can only use it's talons, but when it charges it takes it's foreclaws and bite into it's attack as well. To me, if it says, which it does, that when charging that you can take a full attack, then that's what you can do. If you FIRST are in the condition to deliver a full attack. If something else prevent you from delivering a full attack, the pounce rule doesn't say it overrides that even. The pounce rule only remove the limit imposed by the charge rules, it doesn't remove the limit imposed by the surprise round rules If they didn't want it to be able to work that way, why do they have it even written to be able to charge while only having a standard action? To let you charge during a surprise round so that you can deliver your attack during that round. Not to let you use a full round attack during a surprise round Frankly I don't really see player abuse either, or at least not any worse than anything else they can do. A sorcerer who only flies so he can't be counter attacked, a druid who uses pounce constantly, a ranger who takes advantage of being able to rend constantly. They're all just ways for a player to succeed, if such a thing really ends up being a problem, I'd just up the monsters I threw at my party. If they've figured out a way to handle situations that are beyond their power, then great, but there will always be something bigger and badder, and luck only lasts so long. Unless you're a luckstealer. :) This is another issue. It doesn't look too abusable to mee too, but by the RAW I think you can't.
weasel0 06-26-07, 01:04 PM	A cat that attacks you swipes with one or two paws(read claws). A cat that is thrown at you(pounce anyone?), lands on(read attacks) you with all four paws. And this can happen without you being aware of the flying feline(read surprise).
Jackmojo 06-26-07, 01:26 PM	I cannot justify a rule that permit a creature that move to make more attack than the same creature that do not move To deliver a full attack you still need a full round action Also note their are multiple creatures in the MMs (i.e. anything with rakes) which get more attacks when they charge then when they stand still. Take a look at the Androsphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) for example: Pounce (Ex) If a sphinx charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks Whereas its normal Full attack (standing still as you put it) is only: Full Attack: 2 claws +18 melee (2d4+7) So make of that what you will, but it should be considered. As to why some creatures get more attacks when they pounce, even in the theoretically shorter timeframe of a surprise round, I always just figured pouncing creatures make all of their attacks at once, rather then swinging repeatedly as a fighter might with his sword. Jack
Karui_Kage 06-26-07, 01:50 PM	However, consider PH pg 143: "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks." Note that it doesn't say "full attack", but "full round action". One could read this as saying that if you're not making a full round action then you can't make multiple attacks (barring specific exceptions). I took a quick glance through the rest of the thread, and didn't notice a comment on this. Is it just me, or wouldn't this ruling only apply to: A. Things with a high enough BAB for more than one attack per round B. Things with two weapons or a double weapon C. Some special reason None of those would apply to a dinosaur, or other monster with multiple natural attacks. Things with a lower than +6 BAB can still have a bite, two claws, etc. attacks, and with the Muliattack feat, they can use all of those in a full round action. Since they also don't fall into any of the above categories, they can use all of them on a standard action charge (one move) if they have pounce.
Leilond 06-26-07, 02:28 PM	I took a quick glance through the rest of the thread, and didn't notice a comment on this. Is it just me, or wouldn't this ruling only apply to: A. Things with a high enough BAB for more than one attack per round B. Things with two weapons or a double weapon C. Some special reason None of those would apply to a dinosaur, or other monster with multiple natural attacks. Why not? Some special reason, like having multiple natural attack Things with a lower than +6 BAB can still have a bite, two claws, etc. attacks, and with the Muliattack feat, they can use all of those in a full round action. Since they also don't fall into any of the above categories, they can use all of them on a standard action charge (one move) if they have pounce. Sorry but you arbitrary decided that "having multiple natural attack" isn't included in the "other special reason" while I think it perfectly feet there If it wasn't, the dinosaur could always full attack with a standard action
Karui_Kage 06-26-07, 03:35 PM	I don't include it in the 'other special reason', because if it were, then pounce would make no sense. The entire point of pounce as written is to give a full attack to creatures who have it when they charge. If it was under the other special reason, they wouldn't get that, and there would be no point of it.
Leilond 06-26-07, 04:22 PM	Pounce is a special rule that make you ignore the limitation of only a single attack during a charge, but still a full round action is required to make a full attack, during a charge or not I think that this is the way the rulel work Pherapse I'm wrong
Marcus Majarra 06-26-07, 04:57 PM	Making a full attack is usually a full-round action, but when you have pounce, it merely becomes part of a charge action. It doesn't matter if slowed characters could get to attack more often through charging than otherwise. The mechanic is merely charging-dependent. Your argument would be true if pounce were to stipulate that it only applies when charging as a full-round action. As it is, pounce applies to all charges.
Karui_Kage 06-26-07, 05:19 PM	Making a full attack is usually a full-round action, but when you have pounce, it merely becomes part of a charge action. It doesn't matter if slowed characters could get to attack more often through charging than otherwise. The mechanic is merely charging-dependent. Your argument would be true if pounce were to stipulate that it only applies when charging as a full-round action. As it is, pounce applies to all charges. Agreed.
Phrennzy 06-26-07, 08:01 PM	I still cannot understand how a monster that do not move can make less attacks than a monster that move I didn't talked about "slowed or staggered" I'm talking about a surprise round. A velociraptor that wait me behind a corner. If the velociraptor, in the surprise round, happens to be directly near me, it can attack immediatlely, without moving, making a single attack. If it is 20' from me and have to move before attacking it can deliver a full attack I cannot justify a rule that permit a creature that move to make more attack than the same creature that do not move To deliver a full attack you still need a full round action The velociraptor standing next to you lacks the room to build up speed for a clawing leap. The one standing 10' away does not.
Leilond 06-27-07, 02:56 AM	The velociraptor standing next to you lacks the room to build up speed for a clawing leap. The one standing 10' away does not. That's false, because during a normal round he can do it, so it isn't a matter of "lacking the room".
Phrennzy 06-27-07, 09:14 AM	If pounce is a special rule that lets you ignore the limitation of only a single attack during a charge, couldn't it also be a special rule that lets you ignore the rule of full attack requiring a full round action? The intent of the pounce ability is to let the creature charge and strike with all of it's attacks and then some. It's only going to be able to do this at the start of the round if it gets highest initiative, or during a surprise round. Otherwise, it will be in melee combat and not be able to charge.
Marcus Majarra 06-27-07, 09:24 AM	That's false, because during a normal round he can do it, so it isn't a matter of "lacking the room". There's no mention of normal rounds or abnormal rounds in Phrennzy's post. Since all that pounce requires is for you to charge, it's only reasonable to conclude that you need space to gather the sufficient momentum to launch the series of attacks. Is there any concrete support in the rules indicating that you can't pounce while slowed? I very much doubt that.
Leilond 06-27-07, 11:01 AM	There's no mention of normal rounds or abnormal rounds in Phrennzy's post. Since all that pounce requires is for you to charge, it's only reasonable to conclude that you need space to gather the sufficient momentum to launch the series of attacks. That's not the issue. Because the number of attack are the same amount of a normal full attack the creature can do during a turn Now we're talking about a creature that during a surpise round can make a full attack while charging (standard action) but cannot full attack if start the turn near the opponent. So we are saying that a creature that must move and then attack have more room to make a "full attack" than a creature that can directly attack. Both require a "full attack action" but you allow the "full attack action" to the creature that is charging, but don't allow the "full attack action" to the creature that start the turn directly near you This is, my personal idea, totally wrong. The punce let you use a "full attack action" during a charge, but a "full attack action" must be a viable action for that turn in advance. If somegthing in the turn prevent you from making a "full attack action", the pounce feat cannot concede it, because it remove only the limitation of the charge, it doesn't remove the limitation of the surprise round
Phrennzy 06-27-07, 04:21 PM	That's not the issue. Because the number of attack are the same amount of a normal full attack the creature can do during a turn Now we're talking about a creature that during a surpise round can make a full attack while charging (standard action) but cannot full attack if start the turn near the opponent. So we are saying that a creature that must move and then attack have more room to make a "full attack" than a creature that can directly attack. Both require a "full attack action" but you allow the "full attack action" to the creature that is charging, but don't allow the "full attack action" to the creature that start the turn directly near you This is, my personal idea, totally wrong. The punce let you use a "full attack action" during a charge, but a "full attack action" must be a viable action for that turn in advance. If somegthing in the turn prevent you from making a "full attack action", the pounce feat cannot concede it, because it remove only the limitation of the charge, it doesn't remove the limitation of the surprise round First, I have to say I love your english. It's just accented enough to sound hot. There, I said it. Second - The raptor charges and jumps, bringing all it's limbs into action. That's it's pounce. My thinking is: The raptor gets pounce when it charges. The raptor can charge when it gets a surprise round. Therefore, the raptor can pounce when it gets a surprise round. Pounce reads: Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. So even though a surprise round only normally allows a standard action, since the raptor can charge he can pounce, and can take a full attack. The pounce ability is the exception to the rule of Standard Action during surprise.
WolfHati 06-28-07, 03:45 AM	Hmm... what's to keep a creature from just blowing off the surprise round and waiting until his next available turn? While people have initiative, they have not acted yet in combat, seeing as there is nothing to fight, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they're still flat footed. They are still unaware. It just means that the surprised party automatically gets to go next, rather than having a chance of losing the initiative and having the ambusher make another full round action. Of course I have a tendency to loosely interpret the initiative rules as encounters where two sides have drawn weapons and are threatening each other well before anyone decides to attack are common in my campaigns. And having people who are ready for action with weapons drawn be considered flat footed for a full round of six seconds because they rolled low on initiative is retarded. I agree with the ruling that you can't make multiple attacks with anything other than a full round action unless a feat directly contradicts that.
Leilond 06-28-07, 07:05 AM	First, I have to say I love your english. It's just accented enough to sound hot. There, I said it. Second - The raptor charges and jumps, bringing all it's limbs into action. That's it's pounce. My thinking is: The raptor gets pounce when it charges. The raptor can charge when it gets a surprise round. Therefore, the raptor can pounce when it gets a surprise round. Pounce reads: Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. So even though a surprise round only normally allows a standard action, since the raptor can charge he can pounce, and can take a full attack. The pounce ability is the exception to the rule of Standard Action during surprise. 1) Sorry for my english :blush: 2) I understand your point, and I find it wrong 3) I explained why I think I cannot give a bettere explanation
Marcus Majarra 06-30-07, 06:37 PM	That's not the issue. Because the number of attack are the same amount of a normal full attack the creature can do during a turn Now we're talking about a creature that during a surpise round can make a full attack while charging (standard action) but cannot full attack if start the turn near the opponent. So we are saying that a creature that must move and then attack have more room to make a "full attack" than a creature that can directly attack. Both require a "full attack action" but you allow the "full attack action" to the creature that is charging, but don't allow the "full attack action" to the creature that start the turn directly near you This is, my personal idea, totally wrong. The punce let you use a "full attack action" during a charge, but a "full attack action" must be a viable action for that turn in advance. If somegthing in the turn prevent you from making a "full attack action", the pounce feat cannot concede it, because it remove only the limitation of the charge, it doesn't remove the limitation of the surprise round This entire post is incorrect. A surprise round doesn't prevent you from making a full attack. It prevents you from taking full-round actions, which conveniently includes the full attack action. While charges are normally full-round actions, you can charge as a standard action during a surprise round. You'd think that normally, you couldn't move and attack during a surprise round, as this usually takes both a move action and a standard action (which you only have one during a surprise round), but charge is a special case, and this action is eligible to use during surprise rounds. The only limitation a surprise round has with respect to charging has nothing to do with the number of attacks. It only has to do with the distance traveled. Pounce doesn't have exception cases for surprise rounds, as it doesn't depend on anything other than the ability to charge. While you might not like it, that's the RAW.
WolfHati 06-30-07, 08:47 PM	If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. The rules say full round action not full attack action.
Anathema 06-30-07, 09:21 PM	I think the important distinction here is that even though you may take a "Full Attack" with your "Full Round Action", there is nothing specifically limiting the "Full Attack" to only a "Full Round Action". Pounce is one of the exceptions that allows you to take a "Full Attack" without using a "Full Round Action"; because if that were the case, the your "Full Round Action" would have already been taken when you charged. I can understand that being used to a "Full Attack" normally only being used as a "Full Round Action", but Pounce is a clear exception to this, allowing one to use a "Full Attack" in a way other than using their "Full Round Action" to do so.
Leilond 07-02-07, 03:48 AM	I think the important distinction here is that even though you may take a "Full Attack" with your "Full Round Action", there is nothing specifically limiting the "Full Attack" to only a "Full Round Action". Sure there is. It say that a "full attack" action IS a "full round action".
Anathema 07-02-07, 04:32 AM	Yes; a full attack is a full round action. That doesn't mean that the only way to do a full attack is to use a full round action. Just as making a single attack does not always use a standard action. Pounce is one way of obtaining a full attack without using your full round action to do a full attack. Attacks of Opportunity are one way of obtaining a single attack without using your standard action.
Leilond 07-02-07, 04:39 AM	Yes; a full attack is a full round action. That doesn't mean that the only way to do a full attack is to use a full round action. Just as making a single attack does not always use a standard action. It doesn't matter. If the rules say that "a full attack action is a full round action" it will be so unless explicity written
Anathema 07-02-07, 04:55 AM	It is explicitly written. In the description for Pounce. MM pg313
Leilond 07-02-07, 05:48 AM	It is explicitly written. In the description for Pounce. MM pg313 We're discussing about that. You think that it implies you can do it during a standard action, I think that the rules do not say that
Anathema 07-02-07, 08:48 PM	Pounce allows you to do your full attack when you charge. You can charge with a standard action, when you're limited to a standard action. In fact, a surprise round is the example given. What's the hang up?
Nom 07-02-07, 09:43 PM	Actually, the restricted charge is not the same as the normal charge. Notably, you are limited to your speed rather than twice your speed. Given this, and given that PH pg 143 is quite clear that you must take a full round action (that's literally "full round action", not "full attack", even though the full attack action is the one they expect you to take) in order to use additional attacks, there's certainly scope to rule that a restricted charge limits you to a single attack even if you have extra attacks. It "feels" wrong to me to allow restricted charge as a back-door mechanic to making a full attack when restricted to only a standard action.
Anathema 07-02-07, 11:07 PM	Well you're allowed to change things if you think it "feels like a back-door mechanic". I feel differently, and the rules support it.
Karui_Kage 07-02-07, 11:38 PM	I concur. The rules say you can charge as a standard action up to your normal movement speed, and do say you can do so in a surprise round. Pounce allows a full attack on a charge (it does NOT say "only on normal charges that allow you to go up to double move"). Ergo, you can pounce in a surprise round. That this thread is still debating over this is surprising. It's silly. I keep seeing "You can only do a full attack on a full round action, the rules say this". A lot of things are exceptions to rules in DnD, why is it such a surprise that Pounce is an exception to one of them?
Nom 07-03-07, 12:33 AM	The issue is that the rules don't seem to be aware that they might be granting an exception. There are a variety of feats and abilities that allow characters to make multiple "attacks" with a standard action: multishot, cleave (PH), hydra (MM), bounding assault (PH2), to name a few. Similarly, both Charge and Pounce-like abilities create exceptions to the normal "full round action" rules. The former allows a double-move and attack as a full round action, while the latter adds extra attacks (how many and what kind depending on the ability). That's all good. The problem comes when restricted charge is combined with Pounce. This case allows several creatures to use multiple attacks in a situation where they normally could only make a single attack. That's not inherently a problem (see Multishot or hydras), except that the rules show no awareness that they are allowing this and apply none of the normal modifiers for doing so. This suggests a loophole rather than an intended application of the rules.
JustinA 07-03-07, 12:41 AM	Hmmm. So the dilemma is do you nerf the deinonychus by not allowing full-attack on a surprise round charge, or do you allow it, making the monster a bit (or a lot) more powerful than perhaps the designers intended? I think, given the fact that it's called "Pounce", that this ability is working exactly as the designers intended it to. I don't understand why this thread is continuing: You can Charge when X is true. You can Pounce whenever you Charge. What's the issue? Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
Marcus Majarra 07-03-07, 12:49 AM	It "feels" wrong to me to allow restricted charge as a back-door mechanic to making a full attack when restricted to only a standard action. You should tell this to the hydra. There are many existing mechanics that bypass the usual limit on using more than one attack without resorting to a full-round action. If we'd go with the idea that this restriction is all-inclusive, then our friendly hydra could not attack with all its heads as a standard action. Of course, if we start accommodating this as an exception case, I don't see why pounce shouldn't be treated as an exception case either.
Karui_Kage 07-03-07, 01:30 AM	The issue is that the rules don't seem to be aware that they might be granting an exception. There are a variety of feats and abilities that allow characters to make multiple "attacks" with a standard action: multishot, cleave (PH), hydra (MM), bounding assault (PH2), to name a few. Similarly, both Charge and Pounce-like abilities create exceptions to the normal "full round action" rules. The former allows a double-move and attack as a full round action, while the latter adds extra attacks (how many and what kind depending on the ability). That's all good. The problem comes when restricted charge is combined with Pounce. This case allows several creatures to use multiple attacks in a situation where they normally could only make a single attack. That's not inherently a problem (see Multishot or hydras), except that the rules show no awareness that they are allowing this and apply none of the normal modifiers for doing so. This suggests a loophole rather than an intended application of the rules. Yes, the former 'allows' a double-move, and a partial charge 'allows' a single move. They're still both charges, and pounce would apply to both.
Kaurus 07-03-07, 07:08 AM	I concur with Karui_Kage and JustinA, they pointed out the corresponding rules and I can see no reason why pounce should be used otherwise. It is completely sound that a creature that gets its´ food by dropping onto or jumping at unaware prey has the capability to deal maximum damage on a surprise round. :eek: Unpleasant situation for the character that gets badly wounded before he can do anything, but that´s life. :weep: Case closed, I suggest !
Leilond 07-03-07, 07:11 AM	Well... not quite closed. I don't agree, but I see I'm the only one, and I explained why. Case closed.
Nom 07-03-07, 11:29 AM	You should tell this to the hydra.In fact, I believe I mentioned it twice in the post you are quoting. There are many existing mechanics that bypass the usual limit on using more than one attack without resorting to a full-round action.Well, I counted three in the core rules, four if we allow the Choker's extra standard action. If we'd go with the idea that this restriction is all-inclusive, then our friendly hydra could not attack with all its heads as a standard action. Of course, if we start accommodating this as an exception case, I don't see why pounce shouldn't be treated as an exception case either.Because the four examples previously listed are all very clearly exceptions. Hydra and multishot are explicitly described as standard actions. Bounding assault specifically applies to Spring Attack. Cleave is explicitly called out as ignoring the "one attack on a standard action rule". Pounce is silent. It's entirely possible that the Charge and Pounce are supposed to interact to grant an unpenalised "move and full attack" on a surprise round or while slowed. It's also entirely possible that the interaction never occurred to the writers, since the restricted charge is hybrid rule that covers a corner case. In contrast, the Choker has a similar problem as for Pounce. Does Quickness grant it an extra move or standard action on a surprise or slowed round, or does the "restricted to a move action or a standard action" apply regardless? One could rule either way, but again it comes up because the special rule is written for a normal turn and doesn't explicitly encompass interaction with restricted turns.
weasel0 07-03-07, 12:50 PM	a DM was running a game I happened to miss, and in it, he killed one of the PCs in the suprise round with a dire tiger who got his pounce, hit with all attacks(claw) and crit with bite, and got his rake as well. .... The party heard... Growl! AURK!! ...and then saw the elf fall in ribbons from top to bottom with a dire tiger standing there. ...Roll for init guys.
Anathema 07-03-07, 01:16 PM	Full attacks are not restricted to full round actions only. If they were, pounce would never work in the first place. Either pounce works when you charge (a full round action), or it doesn't work when you charge (because charge is a full round action). If we were to work under the presumption that each new rule has to specifically state every rule it supercedes then there would be a ton of invalid rules in existance. An example: The PHB describes the ways you gain feats. Normally through levelling, or a bonus as part of your class or race. As the way the PHB describes it, these are the only ways you can obtain feats. The Sylvan Scimitar (DMG pg229) grants you the Cleave feat. It seems like these two are "unaware of each other"! Therefore, since the bonus from Sylvan Scimitar is neither a feat gained through levelling, or a specific bonus from race or class, it should be disallowed through this line of reasoning. Cleave also has prerequisites, neither of which you are given by Sylvan Scimitar. More rules that are unaware of each other! Of course, it doesn't work like this. Every rule does not have to list every specific exception except where it matters. You gain Pounce when you Charge, however you charge. You gain the Cleave feat when you use the Sylvan Scimitar, regardless of prerequisites and other requirements normal for feats. Do you wield the Sylvan Scimitar? Yes? You can use the Cleave feat. Do you charge? Yes? You can use your full attack. It doesn't matter if you don't think it's right to allow a full attack on just a standard action; by extention it would also be not right to allow a double move and a full attack because those are both full round actions as well!
Marcus Majarra 07-03-07, 01:21 PM	Because the four examples previously listed are all very clearly exceptions. Hydra and multishot are explicitly described as standard actions. Bounding assault specifically applies to Spring Attack. Cleave is explicitly called out as ignoring the "one attack on a standard action rule". Pounce is silent. It's entirely possible that the Charge and Pounce are supposed to interact to grant an unpenalised "move and full attack" on a surprise round or while slowed. It's also entirely possible that the interaction never occurred to the writers, since the restricted charge is hybrid rule that covers a corner case. There are also attacks of opportunity, which allow you to attack more than once per round without resorting to full-round actions. Not to mention multiple-target spells that require melee or ranged touch attacks.
Lootus 07-03-07, 09:23 PM	Question for all of you... Before this, I was using pounce/full attack on PC's in the surprise round. However, after this thread, I'd like to try using the ruling that pounce does not grant a full attack in a surprise round. But, I still like the idea of a creature(s) trying to set up an ambush where it can effectively use pounce at the beginning of the encounter (after/without a surprise round). So, seeing as how I'm used to thinking of pounce in a surprise-charge-pounce sort of way, do you have any advice on how to modify tactics in order to take advantage of this ability as the encounter begins? Will this change effectively remove pounce from the ambush/surprise part of the encounter design? Or does it just make it more challenging to plan an ambush that takes advantage of pounce? In short, can pounce still be used just as effectively at the beginning of an encounter?? (I was thinking of a pack of raptors as an example)
Anathema 07-03-07, 09:26 PM	Sure; just have the monster who you want to pounce first delay his action in the surprise round so that he can act first in the first normal round.
Kaurus 07-03-07, 09:27 PM	Question for all of you... Before this, I was using pounce/full attack on PC's in the surprise round. However, after this thread, I'd like to try using the ruling that pounce does not grant a full attack in a surprise round. But, I still like the idea of a creature(s) trying to set up an ambush where it can effectively use pounce at the beginning of the encounter (after/without a surprise round). So, seeing as how I'm used to thinking of pounce in a surprise-charge-pounce sort of way, do you have any advice on how to modify tactics in order to take advantage of this ability as the encounter begins? Will this change effectively remove pounce from the ambush/surprise part of the encounter design? Or does it just make it more challenging to plan an ambush that takes advantage of pounce? In short, can pounce still be used just as effectively at the beginning of an encounter?? (I was thinking of a pack of raptors as an example) Hm, what about delaying the action from its surprise round to get the highest initiative in the first normal round and then pounce on the flat footed chars ?
Anathema 07-03-07, 09:28 PM	Once again the 120 wpm typing speed pays off. :mage:
Lootus 07-03-07, 09:41 PM	Sure; just have the monster who you want to pounce first delay his action in the surprise round so that he can act first in the first normal round. If you are delaying the surprise round action, is it the non-full-round charge that you would take in the next round? Are you simply delaying your surprise round action (which would be limited to a standard action)?
Anathema 07-03-07, 09:45 PM	He would be delaying in this case, not readying. When you delay, you simply wait to act until you want to, and when you act that is your new initative. Example: Two PC's are wandering through the jungle and get surprised by a Velociraptor. The init's rolled are 12 and 15 for the PC's, and 8 for the raptor. The PC's are both surprised, so the raptor is the only one allowed to act. The raptor 'delays', which means he waits until the start of the next round to act (or whenever else he might choose to; but this is when he wants to act). When he acts at the start of the round, his new init is above the PC's; this allows him to act first in the first round. Delay is described on PHB pg160
Kaurus 07-03-07, 09:53 PM	Once again the 120 wpm typing speed pays off. :mage: Jupp or that I´m a slow thinker (and not native speaker) :eek: and thank you for your RAW explanation in the other thread ;)
Lootus 07-03-07, 10:20 PM	He would be delaying in this case, not readying. When you delay, you simply wait to act until you want to, and when you act that is your new initative. Example: Two PC's are wandering through the jungle and get surprised by a Velociraptor. The init's rolled are 12 and 15 for the PC's, and 8 for the raptor. The PC's are both surprised, so the raptor is the only one allowed to act. The raptor 'delays', which means he waits until the start of the next round to act (or whenever else he might choose to; but this is when he wants to act). When he acts at the start of the round, his new init is above the PC's; this allows him to act first in the first round. Delay is described on PHB pg160 I appreciate the clarification. The way it's described, it almost seems as though you use delay to postpone either a certain action you would have taken in the previous round, or delay your previous round's action (which you didn't take). Looking at the section on surprise, it's also a little unclear that the surprise and regular rounds are connected to each other by the same initiative rolls. (but they are...right?) This would be an easy way to modify this type of surprise encounter. Thanks.
weasel0 07-03-07, 10:21 PM	Small flaw. If you delay your surpise round action, did the round even exsist? The reason there is a surprise round is due to some dimwit not spot/hearing the MOB. If the MOB doesn't do something to gain attention, then the PCs remain unaware of the danger and will thusly never encounter the danger. So we fix this by putting a neon sign over every encounters head so there isn't surprise so the MOB isn't nerfed. Otherwise, any PCs who aren't surprised WILL attack the encounter and maybe kill it before it ever gets to act. That makes perfect sense now. I'm gonna let my little pounce monster sit and take a beating just so it can delay long enough to use it's full abilities..... suuuurrrrrre! [/sarcasm]
Lootus 07-03-07, 10:46 PM	Small flaw. If you delay your surpise round action, did the round even exsist? The reason there is a surprise round is due to some dimwit not spot/hearing the MOB. If the MOB doesn't do something to gain attention, then the PCs remain unaware of the danger and will thusly never encounter the danger. So we fix this by putting a neon sign over every encounters head so there isn't surprise so the MOB isn't nerfed. Otherwise, any PCs who aren't surprised WILL attack the encounter and maybe kill it before it ever gets to act. That makes perfect sense now. I'm gonna let my little pounce monster sit and take a beating just so it can delay long enough to use it's full abilities..... suuuurrrrrre! [/sarcasm] Not sure I follow...are you saying that if the one(s) who gets to act in the surprise round doesn't do anything noticible, that you don't believe it counts as an actual surprise round? I'm pretty sure I see where you're going with this, but wanted to clarify. edit: in the above example, the raptor surprises the pc's but appears not to do anything. Then, it ends up going before everyone else when regular rounds begin, effectively trading its surprise action for the top initiative spot in the first regular round of combat.
Anathema 07-04-07, 03:23 AM	He was just illustrating how easy it is to twist the words of the core rules to make them sounds like they say something totally different than what they mean. Something not too uncommon around here (i.e. 10 pages of arguing over what "can" means). Hence the "/sarcasm" bit ;)
weasel0 07-04-07, 02:44 PM	:D or as the great President Clinton said: That depends on what your definition of "is" is.
Anathema 07-04-07, 06:20 PM	That's exactly what I think of every time I read that thread. :surrender
Kaurus 07-09-07, 06:13 PM	Small flaw. If you delay your surpise round action, did the round even exsist? The reason there is a surprise round is due to some dimwit not spot/hearing the MOB. If the MOB doesn't do something to gain attention, then the PCs remain unaware of the danger and will thusly never encounter the danger. So we fix this by putting a neon sign over every encounters head so there isn't surprise so the MOB isn't nerfed. Otherwise, any PCs who aren't surprised WILL attack the encounter and maybe kill it before it ever gets to act. That makes perfect sense now. I'm gonna let my little pounce monster sit and take a beating just so it can delay long enough to use it's full abilities..... suuuurrrrrre! [/sarcasm] I agree with weasel objection and I think this sarcasm applied to "take a beating just so it can delay long enough to use it's full abilities", but I would suggest to send a pigeon to the Sages (FAQ) and let them decide . . .
Marcus Majarra 07-09-07, 10:40 PM	(i.e. 10 pages of arguing over what "can" means) My typing hands are glad that seems to be over.
Leilond 07-10-07, 03:44 AM	There is a discussion about this on this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=880424&page=3 Do not start a duplicate argument. Here we're discussing if pounce can be used during a suprise round, on the other thread we can discuss if you can or cannot delay the surprise standard action to obtain to be the first of the first regular round
weasel0 07-10-07, 08:32 PM	My typing hands are glad that seems to be over. You have more than one set? :confused:
Madsamurai 07-12-07, 09:51 PM	you guys seem to be missing that the rules are not written in "legal speak". If a normal person reads pounce, what conclusion is more likely, "pounce only on a full round charge" or "pounce on any charge"? Obviously, most DMs and Players will see the most powerful ability. If this wan't the designers intent, then they would have had to express this because people naturally assume what is best for them.
Leilond 07-13-07, 03:25 AM	people naturally assume what is best for them. I correct you: "players" naturally assume that DMs are used to choose the most logical and balanced one
eamon 07-13-07, 08:26 AM	Fluff: The purpose of the pounce ability is clearly to, well, "pounce" on your foes :D - meaning that a critter such as a tiger should be able to pounce on his foes! It's counterintuitive that under normal circumstances (such as a surprise round for a hunter using stealth) the very key ability is impossible and instead you can only make a "normal" charge. I have the feeling that a pounce is a simultaneous attack, and if you can make one attack, you can always make them all with a pounce. I think the very intent of pounce is to allow this kind of attack ;-). Crunch: I agree with those that simply state that a pounce explicitly allows a full attack including rake attacks after any charge, and that a surprise round explicitly allows a charge limited to a single move, ergo, in a surprise round you can charge (but move no more than a single move) and make a full attack at the end of that charge (including rake attacks).
Madsamurai 07-13-07, 05:10 PM	I correct you: "players" naturally assume that DMs are used to choose the most logical and balanced one Ah, but which of these DM poits of view sounds more realistic (assuming a reletivly new DM): 1) "Hmm, this is an awesome ability, im gonna spring it on my players, they'll never know what hit them" 2) "Hmm, this is an awesome ability. Now Im gonna go and make sure there is no corner case that contradicts this!" In all seriousless, when you read a new ability, do you actually search through the entire PHB to make sure that it works like you expect? Most people wouldn't. they trust the designers to point out to them if a ability does not work in what appears to be a strain forward mannar.
tricky_bob 07-14-07, 05:58 AM	My take.. If the creature with Pounce gets a surprise round AND is within one regular move distance from a target (and has no obstructions to stop a charge attack), it gets to pounce and Full Attack. (to me Pounce is a stalking creatures ability) What stops this? Well, effective use of SPOT and LISTEN..thus avoiding the surprise round altogether. Creatures with Pounce are meant to be deadly (unless you see or hear them first).