Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Big_Axe 05-27-07, 12:52 PM	Hi Y'all! I was looking over the daggerspell mage p. class and noticed it only requires arcane caster level 5, and the practiced spellcaster feat jumped into my head. would a 1st level arcane caster\ 4th level any other class with the practiced spellcaster feat qualify that requirement? it seems that way from the wording of the feat, but I'm not sure...
Salla 05-27-07, 03:30 PM	It works perfectly.
CrippleMrOnion 05-27-07, 05:40 PM	No, it wouldn't work. You do not gain actual spellcasting levels from the feat; it only modifies the level at which the spells variables work. For example, a 1st Level Sorc / 4th level fighter with practiced spellcaster could cast magic missile and get 3 missiles, but would not be able to cast 2nd or 3rd level spells.
Eldritch_Lord 05-27-07, 05:51 PM	You do not gain actual spellcasting levels from the feat; it only modifies the level at which the spells variables work. The whole question, however, is about caster level. The requirement is not "ability to cast arcane spells as a 5th level caster" but rather "arcane caster level 5," which Practiced Spellcaster improves. I agree with Salla that it works fine.
skywyze 05-27-07, 06:03 PM	How to resolve all D&D questions, 101: 1. Read and understand the hypothesis presented. 2. Read all printed material on it with a fine tooth comb looking both for things that would reject AND confirm the hypothesis. 3. Resolve issue. 4. Decide if hypothesis leads to balanced, fair and/or fun gameplay. If it doesn't, change it. But remember that how things should be and how they actually are are two very different things. Let's apply this to the current situation: 1. The hypothesis is that taking Practiced Spellcaster would increase your spellcaster level by 4 and since the class requires only a spellcasting level of 5, a single level in a spellcasting class should enable you to meet the requirements. 2. According to the description in Complete Arcane, the feat does the following: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.Meanwhile, the Daggerspell mage requirements are as follows: Alignment: Any nonevil. Skills: Concentration 8 ranks. Feats: Weapon Focus (dagger), Two-Weapon Fighting. Special: Arcane caster level 5th. Special: Sneak attack +1d6. 3. As seen above both the feat and the class requirements use the words "caster level" implying that they are, in fact, the same thing. Because of this, the most logical conclusion is that, as written, yes, Practiced Spellcaster would allow you entry into the class by taking a single level of an arcane spellcasting class. However, look at the other requirements: a. You must be level 5, both because of the skill requirement and the fact that Practiced Spellcaster cannot boost your caster level beyond your current Hit Dice total. b. It requires that you take enough levels of a Sneak Attacking class to gain Sneak Attack. c. It requires two feats already, plus another feat spent on Practiced Spellcaster. 4. Assuming we go by the logical extension of the written word, then yes, you would indeed qualify for the prestige class somewhat earlier. However, because of all the other requirements, you must be level 5 anyway to get into the class, so the feat would only save you 2 levels, not 4. This seems somewhat powerful to me, but hardly overpowering as such. I would keep the rule as it was written, but you might want to ask your DM to make sure he or she is okay with it. After all, all the forumites in the world couldn't veto a single DM decision.
StevenO 05-27-07, 06:51 PM	Practiced Spellcaster can improve your Arcane Caster Level. It applies here and in item creation feats among other things that look at caster level. I'll have to keepe that class in mind for any Warlock/Rogue build I may try to make.
Kradlo 05-27-07, 07:09 PM	I'd say that it doesn't, since the requirements are actual level, not effective spellcaster level. The domain benefit for the Good domain is to cast Good spells at +1 caster level, but that won't help you qualify for prestige classes that require a certain divine caster level. That means actual levels in an arcane spellcaster class, or such classes that add to that level. Ultimately, though, it's your Game Master that will make the final call. We can offer advice on the forum, but he makes the decisions in his campaign.
Murrdox 05-27-07, 07:24 PM	Because the feat specifically says that it increases your caster level, I'd agree that it works perfectly. If the feat said something different such as "when casting spells, treat your caster level as if it were 4 levels higher" then I'd think there was some room for interpretation. As worded, however, it seems quite clear for me. This is a great feat for any caster who is going to take substantial levels of a non-caster class.
Magrus 05-27-07, 07:35 PM	I would say it works, only so long as all of the other requirements were met. It limits your spell-casting abilities entering into a prestige class based around using spells to rely on that feat as the way of gaining the majority of your casting ability. In effect, it's nerfing the character. So, *shrugs* why not?
Ace_of_time 05-27-07, 10:13 PM	I would like to add that the feat add +4 to caster level on your hit down and is not limited to how many classes you Multi class in. But only works on one spell caster at picked at the time of taking the feat. EX:1st wizard/2nd rogue/2nd ranger would give you everything you need and still give you + 4 caster level on wizard spells.
Salla 05-27-07, 10:52 PM	Practiced Spellcaster can improve your Arcane Caster Level. It applies here and in item creation feats among other things that look at caster level. I'll have to keepe that class in mind for any Warlock/Rogue build I may try to make. It bears noting, pardon the thread drift, that Warlock is not an applicable class for Practiced Spellcaster. The feat says to select a spellcasting class ... the warlock is not a spellcasting class.
BuffaloGM 05-28-07, 12:43 PM	DnD FAQ 3.5 page 25 . Kudos for thinking of it. Not long ago a player asked me the same question. As a GM however I think that it might be a bit outside of the original concept of the Daggerspell Mage. With all the new material that gets printed by WotC it gets easier to find little loopholes that warp and skew the game. Now the Daggerspells are an elite underground organization and many of them are not 'practiced' spell casters. They probably qualified by having 5 actual caster levels of something, and not by simply taking a feat to catch up. Sure you qualify for the PC, but will you stand up to the scrutiny of the Daggerspell mages when they task you to acomplish a quest during your membership? Your character may take the levels in the PC, but will other Daggerspell mages accept and respect one who can't yet Spider Climb or turn Invisible? I know this really isn't the issue, it's just my 2cp
Ace_of_time 05-28-07, 04:33 PM	It bears noting, pardon the thread drift, that Warlock is not an applicable class for Practiced Spellcaster. The feat says to select a spellcasting class ... the warlock is not a spellcasting class. The only thing you need to get the feat is spell craft 4ranks. And Warlock may not be a spellcaster but he/she has a caster level for his abilites.
Ace_of_time 05-28-07, 04:41 PM	DnD FAQ 3.5 page 25 . Kudos for thinking of it. Not long ago a player asked me the same question. As a GM however I think that it might be a bit outside of the original concept of the Daggerspell Mage. With all the new material that gets printed by WotC it gets easier to find little loopholes that warp and skew the game. Now the Daggerspells are an elite underground organization and many of them are not 'practiced' spell casters. They probably qualified by having 5 actual caster levels of something, and not by simply taking a feat to catch up. Sure you qualify for the PC, but will you stand up to the scrutiny of the Daggerspell mages when they task you to acomplish a quest during your membership? Your character may take the levels in the PC, but will other Daggerspell mages accept and respect one who can't yet Spider Climb or turn Invisible? I know this really isn't the issue, it's just my 2cp Are we worried about the RAW or about what it would be like to role playing it. I think the DM should decide what this would cause in game.
Salla 05-28-07, 05:09 PM	The only thing you need to get the feat is spell craft 4ranks. And Warlock may not be a spellcaster but he/she has a caster level for his abilites. From the FAQ: A strict reading of the feat's benefit indicates the warlock would gain no benefit from Practiced Spellcaster. The warlock is not a spellcasting class for normal purposes -- the exception noted on page 18 [of Complete Arcane] applies only to prestige class benefits -- and thus could not be selected as the class to be affected by this feat.
Ace_of_time 05-28-07, 06:51 PM	My point being that the prerequisite for it just says Spellcraft 4 ranks. Now no matter what the FAQ says (and that is page 24) as far as I know as long as you meet the pre for a feats you gain their benefits of the feat. The benefits do not set whether you can have it just what happens. WotC would have to change the Pre for the feat to say, spellcraft 4 ranks, most cast spells. which it does not. The " chosen spellcasting class" means they have to pick one class for it to work on per feat. Not that it is limited to those classes. WotC does make misstakes from time to time.
Onikani 05-28-07, 08:36 PM	yes it works. it's a dirty ittle loophole, but it works jsut fine. :)
Big_Axe 05-30-07, 01:07 PM	Thanks Y'all! Pleasure Doing business with you!
Salla 05-30-07, 04:53 PM	My point being that the prerequisite for it just says Spellcraft 4 ranks. Now no matter what the FAQ says (and that is page 24) as far as I know as long as you meet the pre for a feats you gain their benefits of the feat. The benefits do not set whether you can have it just what happens. WotC would have to change the Pre for the feat to say, spellcraft 4 ranks, most cast spells. which it does not. The " chosen spellcasting class" means they have to pick one class for it to work on per feat. Not that it is limited to those classes. WotC does make misstakes from time to time. From time to time, yes, but not this time. The feat tells you to pick a spellcasting class. The warlock is not a spellcasting class. The warlock cannot be chosen as the class to benefit from Practiced Spellcaster. Of course, you could still *take* the feat, it just wouldn't do you any good. :)
Ace_of_time 05-31-07, 01:18 AM	As posted by on post # 5 Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus. If that's what you want to believe it's your biss. But to me it means the class you chose as long as it has a caster level. I'm counting spellcaster as a miss print. And it doesn't say none spellcatsing classes can't benefit from it. Is there another feat where the benefits entry tells you whether you can have it and its not in the pre?
Merestil Haye 05-31-07, 01:05 PM	Hi Y'all! I was looking over the daggerspell mage p. class and noticed it only requires arcane caster level 5, and the practiced spellcaster feat jumped into my head. would a 1st level arcane caster\ 4th level any other class with the practiced spellcaster feat qualify that requirement? it seems that way from the wording of the feat, but I'm not sure... The answer is no, sorry. Daggerspell Mage has a requirement of "Arcane caster level 5th." That means he must have at lest 5 levels in an arcane spellcasting class. From the FAQ :Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires “Spellcaster level 5th”? No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats, class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”) The same applies for characters whose caster level is less than their class level. A 5th-level paladin meets the “Spellcaster level 5th) requirement, even though her actual caster level is only 2nd.
skywyze 05-31-07, 01:41 PM	Must've been a typo in the book then, cause it's pretty obvious and straightforward to resolve the way it's written.
Ace_of_time 05-31-07, 05:54 PM	The answer is no, sorry. Daggerspell Mage has a requirement of "Arcane caster level 5th." That means he must have at lest 5 levels in an arcane spellcasting class. From the FAQ : But his ex is talking about caster level and your ex levels in spellcasting class. This is two different thing. 1st level wizard / 4th level rogue with practiced spell caster would have a caster level of 5 but would only be able to cast 1st level spells.
Merestil Haye 06-01-07, 02:54 AM	But his ex is talking about caster level and your ex levels in spellcasting class. This is two different thing. 1st level wizard / 4th level rogue with practiced spell caster would have a caster level of 5 but would only be able to cast 1st level spells.That is true. but irrelevant. The quote from the FAQ asked if a character who had a caster level of 5 because of Practiced Spellcaster qualified for a PrC with a requirement of "Arcane caster level 5." The FAQ said "No." He must have five levels in a spellcasting class to qualify. This does not mean CL5; it means five levels in a class which provides some arcane spellcasting.
Ace_of_time 06-01-07, 10:17 PM	I believe you posted this from the faq. Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires "Spellcaster level 5th”? No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats, class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”) The same applies for characters whose caster level is less than their class level. A 5th-level paladin meets the “Spellcaster level 5th) requirement, even though her actual caster level is only 2nd. What "Spellcaster level 5th” means that you have to be a 5th level in a spellcasting class. Not what you caster level is in that class. Caster level mean what level you cast at and spellcaster level is what level spellcaster you are. Unless it was miss posted it. It even says in the first part "This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level"
calronmoonflower 06-02-07, 04:01 AM	From the daggerspell mage under requirements Special: Arcane caster level 5th. Practiced Spellcaster does increase your arcane caster level so you can use it to qualify for this class. For other classes it may work differently.
Witch 06-02-07, 04:12 AM	Everyone who says Practiced Spellcaster works read the line as following: "Arcane caster level 5th" Those who say it doesn't work read the line as following: "Arcane caster level 5th" The FAQ confirms the second one.
Ace_of_time 06-02-07, 07:22 PM	OK so that we are clear if it was talking about what level wizard you are it would say. " arcana spellcaster level 5th" But as some people have posted it does not it says. " Arcane caster level 5th" Which means he has to be able to cast arcane spells at a caster level of 5th and since PS increases your caster level it would work.
skywyze 06-02-07, 08:18 PM	That's what the book says. The FAQ says differently. The FAQ is newer so some people choose to use it. However, the book is official, so some choose to use that. Considering the insane requirements to get into the class, I'd allow it, personally.
StevenO 06-02-07, 08:35 PM	Everyone who says Practiced Spellcaster works read the line as following: "Arcane caster level 5th" Those who say it doesn't work read the line as following: "Arcane caster level 5th" The FAQ confirms the second one. That sums up the big problem. Two ways to read the same line with the result hinging on how it is interperted. Although both can be the same one answer favors Practice Spellcasters while the other helps casters with slower CL progression. Why couldn't they just throw in a 2nd level spell requirement to go with that line. It may not have made the problem go away but at least then you'd need to put a few more levels into you casting class. Are there any other PrCs that use that language and key off of Class level instead of Caster level? I see a few in Complete Arcane but then I fall back to the Warlock problem of is it actually an Arcane Spellcaster?
Ace_of_time 06-02-07, 08:51 PM	From the D&D 3.5 FAQ Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires “Spellcaster level 5th”? No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats, class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”) The same applies for characters whose caster level is less than their class level. A 5th-level paladin meets the “Spellcaster level 5th) requirement, even though her actual caster level is only 2nd. Now I will assume this is what everyone is typing about when they say FAQ entry. And it says right here (This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level ). The person in this entry is asking about a prestige class that ask for your level in a spellcasting class and not your caster level and that PS wouldn't increase you character level only your caster level. For those that are trying to read this line, the requirement in this entry is “Spellcaster level 5th” meaning your character class level. Arcane caster level only refers to your caster level not you class level. The prestige class the OP wants to know about ask for Arcane caster level (arcane spellcaster thats has a caster level of a certain level) and not Spellcaster level ( what your class level is). If you are talking about some other entry in the FAQ please post a link or the entry.
Andrew 06-02-07, 08:55 PM	The FAQ answers the question for something that says "Spellcaster level 5th" - which really is useless to us here, because what we want to know about is a class with "Caster level 5th" or "Arcane caster level 5th", which are different things: constructions specifically made such that warlocks qualify based only upon caster level, as per page 18 of Complete Arcane. As it's based soley on caster level, I believe the FAQ entry is not relevant and Practiced Spellcaster applies.
StevenO 06-02-07, 09:10 PM	Here I must agree. Spellcaster level is NOT the same thing as XX Caster Level.
Ace_of_time 06-02-07, 09:10 PM	The FAQ answers the question for something that says "Spellcaster level 5th" - which really is useless to us here, because what we want to know about is a class with "Caster level 5th" or "Arcane caster level 5th", which are different things: constructions specifically made such that warlocks qualify based only upon caster level, as per page 18 of Complete Arcane. As it's based soley on caster level, I believe the FAQ entry is not relevant and Practiced Spellcaster applies. I have posted that six times it seems like. They think arcane caster level means class level which it does not.
Witch 06-03-07, 08:37 AM	Why couldn't they just throw in a 2nd level spell requirement to go with that line. It may not have made the problem go away but at least then you'd need to put a few more levels into you casting class. Are there any other PrCs that use that language and key off of Class level instead of Caster level? I see a few in Complete Arcane but then I fall back to the Warlock problem of is it actually an Arcane Spellcaster? A Warlock is an Arcane Caster, but he is not an Arcane Spellcaster. CAd designers wanted warlocks to qualify, so they used the term arcane caster level 5th. Using "arcane spellcaster" disqualified warlocks, as did "being able to cast 2nd level arcane spells".
Ace_of_time 06-03-07, 11:44 AM	As long as the warlock's spell-like abilities count as arcane and he has a caster level of 5th he could take this pre class.
Witch 06-03-07, 11:50 AM	As long as the warlock's spell-like abilities count as arcane and he has a caster level of 5th he could take this pre class. No, you're wrong. His spell-like abilities count as arcane, yes. However, he needs more than a caster level of at least 5. He needs to be an arcane caster of at least level 5 - as the FAQ has clarified.
Lindwyrm 06-03-07, 02:50 PM	Caster level is different to (Spellcaster) level. Quoted from the FAQ quote: This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level The Daggerspell Mage actually says : Arcane caster level 5th. As such, any way of getting a permanent caster level of 5 in a single class qualifies. Wizard 1 + Practiced spellcaster, or (some levels of) Warlock both give you sufficient caster level. If however you get Wizard (or other class) level X, or an ability to cast Y level spells as a requirement, then Practiced spellcaster does not help. If someone ca give a link to the FAQ section in question it might help...
Ace_of_time 06-03-07, 03:55 PM	The FAQ entry in question is not talking about daggerspell mage just prestige classes in general. If there is an entry in the FAQ that change the requirements for daggerspell mage please post it.
Lindwyrm 06-03-07, 03:59 PM	The question that was asked in the FAQ appears to be: Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires “Spellcaster level 5th”? Spellcaster level X is distinct from Arcane caster level X. As the Prestige class refers to Arcane caster level 5, having 5 or more HD, one of which is wizard and a feat which gives you +4 caster levels should be sufficient for the class.
Ace_of_time 06-03-07, 04:07 PM	The question just wants people to understand that there is a difference in the two. I thought maybe they thought that it was talking about daggerspell mage. ( which it isn't)
Lindwyrm 06-03-07, 04:09 PM	Yeah. I think I'm vaguely at cross purposes to you here AoT. I think I need to read posts better...:)
Ace_of_time 06-03-07, 08:11 PM	I was typing to the others here not you, sorry.
maharai23 06-03-07, 08:25 PM	My point being that the prerequisite for it just says Spellcraft 4 ranks. Now no matter what the FAQ says (and that is page 24) as far as I know as long as you meet the pre for a feats you gain their benefits of the feat. The benefits do not set whether you can have it just what happens. WotC would have to change the Pre for the feat to say, spellcraft 4 ranks, most cast spells. which it does not. The " chosen spellcasting class" means they have to pick one class for it to work on per feat. Not that it is limited to those classes. WotC does make misstakes from time to time. No. It does not. It means that they have to pick one class WITH THE ABILITY TO CAST SPELLS.... I.E. Spellcasting. If you have 4 ranks of Spellcraft, you may take the feat. When you take the feat, you select a spellcasting class. That means, Bard, Druid, Paladin, Sorceror, and Wizard are all perfectly good core choices, as they can cast spells. Fighter cannot be chosen. So, yes, a Fighter with 4 ranks of spellcraft may TAKE the feat, but he may not choose Fighter as the class for which it applies. Same with warlock. Choose a class that casts spells, or create a feat called "Practiced invoker" for the same thing. Practiced SPELLCASTER only works for SPELLCASTER classes. Savvy?
Mystic Lemur 06-04-07, 12:40 AM	It's like Weapon Specialization. You have to have Weapon Focus to take it in the prereqs, but in the description says you have to apply it to a weapon you have focused. According to Ace's logic, you could have Weapon Focus (Katana) but make your specialized weapon be a sling because they didn't put that little tidbit in the Prereq part. If it says caster level it means caster level. If it says #th level arcane spells it means that. If it says "must be able to cast lightning bolt as a divine spell", then it looks like you're gonna have to take a few levels of Adept... For the record, the FAQ's comments about Paladin caster level really **** me off. They are saying that a paly's spellcasting level is twice his caster level. Where is the sense in using that measurement for prestige classes? Do they really think that is reducing confusion?:rofl:
Ace_of_time 06-04-07, 09:49 PM	It's like Weapon Specialization. You have to have Weapon Focus to take it in the prereqs, but in the description says you have to apply it to a weapon you have focused. According to Ace's logic, you could have Weapon Focus (Katana) but make your specialized weapon be a sling because they didn't put that little tidbit in the Prereq part. If it says caster level it means caster level. If it says #th level arcane spells it means that. If it says "must be able to cast lightning bolt as a divine spell", then it looks like you're gonna have to take a few levels of Adept... For the record, the FAQ's comments about Paladin caster level really **** me off. They are saying that a paly's spellcasting level is twice his caster level. Where is the sense in using that measurement for prestige classes? Do they really think that is reducing confusion?:rofl: Weapon specialization say in the prereqs that you have to have weapon focus to get it and then tells what you have to have. Plus if you took weapon focus you know how it works. However this feat only says you have to have spellcraft 4 ranks and nothing else. A fighter may not be able to use it but he could when chose to multi class into something that has a caster level. It gains the benefit of the feat as long as it has a caster level. A pal caster level is half his level round down. So 5th divide by 2 rounded down is 2. He could also take PS feat at first level and gain plus four to his caster level and not even be able to cast spells yet.
Ace_of_time 06-04-07, 09:56 PM	Hi Y'all! I was looking over the daggerspell mage p. class and noticed it only requires arcane caster level 5, and the practiced spellcaster feat jumped into my head. would a 1st level arcane caster\ 4th level any other class with the practiced spellcaster feat qualify that requirement? it seems that way from the wording of the feat, but I'm not sure... Also the OP never said warlock just, 1st level arcane caster. He hadn't decided yet what he wanted to be just wanted to know if it was possible which it is.
Mystic Lemur 06-04-07, 10:56 PM	A pal caster level is half his level round down. So 5th divide by 2 rounded down is 2. He could also take PS feat at first level and gain plus four to his caster level and not even be able to cast spells yet. Except that they aren't treated as having a caster level until they have spells to cast. Honestly, I think that the Warlock is the only class capable of having a caster level without being able to cast spells... Sorry for dragging this off-topic even farther away.
Ace_of_time 06-04-07, 11:05 PM	I think that was the point. He could still take the feat. It is better for these types of PC classes, gives them a caster level boost and no multi classing.
Lindwyrm 06-07-07, 07:47 PM	The paladin could take the feat as soon as he has 4 ranks in spellcraft, he just wouldn't gain the benefit until he had a caster level... That's my thought on this feat and paladins anyway.